Difference between Islam and Extremism

[Kynge of Begrem]

Is this a poem?

Willie Nelson song.

 

[Number37]

You are such a one trick pony. Seriously. You don't read what posters write and then your reply with things you think they have said, and you are continually wrong - how did you go finding all those example of me screaming about Iran?

You bleat about me criticising the beliefs of others, as I have said, people can believe whatever they want and I can criticise views I think are misguided/incorrect/despicable - why do you get so upset by this?


If you read my post, you would have noted that I explicitly said 'and this goes for almost all religions'

I know you are out of your depth here, and that you are clearly struggling to keep your cool, but at least read posts before mashing the keys - you're making a fool out of yourself.

It goes for EVERYBODY!
Read Malinowski.

 

[Roylion]

You are trolling. You took one line and ignored the rest....geez I wonder why.

Because I disputed your particular assertion that 'God' will judge whether my life choices are right or wrong. 'God' will do nothing of the sort. Any suggestion that he / she / it, could or would make such a judgement, is asserted by nothing more than an old collection of writings deemed divine or holy by a portion of the human population.

If you can't comprehend what I wrote, just ask and I will attempt to make clear what I said.

I understand very well what you claimed 'God' would do.

"It is only God that can judge whether your choice is right or wrong." is very clear.

 

[Number37]

Let me get this straight, you seriously think that the death sentence for apostates is un-Islamic?

Which part of any of my previous explanations don't you understand?

The Koran is unambiguous about when apostates are allowed to be killed. Apostates are allowed to be killed when they fight against Muslims. Is that difficult to understand? As I have also explained those circumstances equate to high treason, which has been punishable by death all over the world until recently and is STILL A CRIME all around the world.
Bring on the "it's different" argument.

As I have also said, Muslims are taught and believe stridently that God hands out punishment, judges right and wrong. It is NOT the place of a Muslim to know better than God. Before you (& others) go off half cocked, that is a statement of fact, unless you can provide evidence that is not what Muslims believe? Whether it is right or wrong is NOT the point of the discussion.

 

[Number37]

Because I disputed your particular assertion that 'God' will judge whether my life choices are right or wrong. 'God' will do nothing of the sort. Any suggestion that he / she / it, could or would make such a judgement, is asserted by nothing more than an old collection of writings deemed divine or holy by a portion of the human population.



I understand very well what you claimed 'God' would do.

Obviously NOT.
Big difference between making a statement of fact (that Muslims & other religions hold the belief that God judges right and wrong) and what you claim I said.
You deliberately twisted what I said so you could go on a troll.

There are plenty of other threads devoted to the veracity of that belief. Stop wasting your time twisting my words to suit your rubbish. Say it a hundred times, it still does not make it true. I have corrected you 3 times and still you want to make up your rubbish. Give it a rest.

 

[Roylion]

Obviously NOT.
Big difference between making a statement of fact (that Muslims & other religions hold the belief that God judges right and wrong) and what you claim I said.

You said...
"It is only God that can judge whether your choice is right or wrong."

I reject that assertion. Whether it is from you or whether it is the belief of Muslims worldwide or both, I still reject that assertion.

You deliberately twisted what I said so you could go on a troll

I didn't twist anything.

"It is only God that can judge whether your choice is right or wrong." is very clear. I commented on that belief.

 

[Roylion]

The Koran is unambiguous about when apostates are allowed to be killed. Apostates are allowed to be killed when they fight against Muslims. Is that difficult to understand? As I have also explained those circumstances equate to high treason, which has been punishable by death all over the world until recently and is STILL A CRIME all around the world.

The Quran itself doesn't specify the death penalty for apostasy.

For example.

"He who disbelieves in Allah after his having believed, not he who is compelled while his heart is at rest on account of faith, but he who opens (his) breast to disbelief-- on these is the wrath of Allah, and they shall have a grievous chastisement." Quran 16:106.

However the hadiths do have death as punishment for apostasy. For example the Sahih al-Bukhari which is considered to the most trustworthy work in Islam after the Quran mentions the following.

" Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him." Sahih al-Bukhari 4:52:260

and:

" A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle." Sahih al-Bukhari 9:89:271

 

[CountryRace]

The Quran itself doesn't specify the death penalty for apostasy.

For example.

"He who disbelieves in Allah after his having believed, not he who is compelled while his heart is at rest on account of faith, but he who opens (his) breast to disbelief-- on these is the wrath of Allah, and they shall have a grievous chastisement." Quran 16:106.

However the hadiths do have death as punishment for apostasy. For example the Sahih al-Bukhari which is considered to the most trustworthy work in Islam after the Quran mentions the following.

" Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him." Sahih al-Bukhari 4:52:260

and:

" A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle." Sahih al-Bukhari 9:89:271

can you do some jewish ones pls

 

[Roylion]

can you do some jewish ones pls

You mean like Deuteronomy 13: 6-11 which states:

"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again."

 

[Number37]

The Quran itself doesn't specify the death penalty for apostasy.

For example.

"He who disbelieves in Allah after his having believed, not he who is compelled while his heart is at rest on account of faith, but he who opens (his) breast to disbelief-- on these is the wrath of Allah, and they shall have a grievous chastisement." Quran 16:106.

However the hadiths do have death as punishment for apostasy. For example the Sahih al-Bukhari which is considered to the most trustworthy work in Islam after the Quran mentions the following.

" Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him." Sahih al-Bukhari 4:52:260

and:

" A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle." Sahih al-Bukhari 9:89:271

They were just sitting around one day and decided to kill an apostate.
Sounds legit.

 

[fleabitten]

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danthr...-a-9-year-old-murdered-while-god-was-praised/

Allahu Akbar

 

[Roylion]

They were just sitting around one day and decided to kill an apostate.
Sounds legit.

I'm quoting from the Sahih al-Bukhari, considered to be the most reliable by many traditional religious scholars who are Sunnis. The Hadith are the "prophetic traditions" which are the reports of the teachings, deeds and sayings of Mohammed. They are considered important tools for interpreting and understanding the Quran. Clearly the Sahih al Bukhari suggests that Mohammed advocated death for apostates.

 

[Roylion]

Pity you didn't provide the whole quote.
.

Here's your whole quote

"You don't need my (or anyone else's) permission to ramble.
Raise as many objections to Islam (or Muslims) as you like.
Question everything about Islam, that is what the Koran teaches.
It is an individual's choice to accept Islam. Nobody can be forced.
An individual and ONLY that individual is responsible for what they choose.
It is only God that can judge whether your choice is right or wrong."

As I've said from the start, whether it is your belief and/or the belief of Muslims in general, I reject the last line regardless.

 

[The Edukator]

If only the general population read this thread, they'd actually have some understanding of what it is they do or do not fear and why. They wouldn't just be influenced by what they see on TV. This thread is very educational.

 

[Number37]

Here's your whole quote

"You don't need my (or anyone else's) permission to ramble.
Raise as many objections to Islam (or Muslims) as you like.
Question everything about Islam, that is what the Koran teaches.
It is an individual's choice to accept Islam. Nobody can be forced.
An individual and ONLY that individual is responsible for what they choose.
It is only God that can judge whether your choice is right or wrong."

As I've said from the start, whether it is your belief and/or the belief of Muslims in general, I reject the last line regardless.

And as I have said from the start, good for you.

 

[Number37]

I'm quoting from the Sahih al-Bukhari, considered to be the most reliable by many traditional religious scholars who are Sunnis. The Hadith are the "prophetic traditions" which are the reports of the teachings, deeds and sayings of Mohammed. They are considered important tools for interpreting and understanding the Quran. Clearly the Sahih al Bukhari suggests that Mohammed advocated death for apostates.

So the quote you provided was just the prophet sitting around one day and deciding that its A-OK to kill apostates?
Sounds legit and a not a distortion of the truth at all.

 

[Roylion]

So the quote you provided was just the prophet sitting around one day and deciding that its A-OK to kill apostates?
Sounds legit and a not a distortion of the truth at all.

Do you understand what prominence, to Sunni Muslims, the Sahih al-Bukhari holds within the body of Islamic works known as the Hadith?

 

[Number37]

If only the general population read this thread, they'd actually have some understanding of what it is they do or do not fear and why. They wouldn't just be influenced by what they see on TV. This thread is very educational.

If they don't they can always go to the anti-halal facebook page and get further 'educated'.

Kiralie Smith the Cesar Millan of the redneck brigade.

 

[Number37]

Do you understand what prominence, to Sunni Muslims, the Sahih al-Bukhari holds within the body of Islamic works known as the Hadith?

The actual prominence or your interpretation?

 

[Roylion]

The actual prominence or your interpretation?

Do some reading and you might begin to understand.

Try this for starters.

http://sunnah.com/bukhari
http://www.sahih-bukhari.com/

 

[The Edukator]

If they don't they can always go to the anti-halal facebook page and get further 'educated'.

Kiralie Smith the Cesar Millan of the redneck brigade.

your belligerance is astounding.

 

[Roylion]

My mistake, you have misunderstood my question:
Are you going to talk sh!t are you up for a sensible discussion?

I've already told you that the Quran does not mention any punishment of death for apostasy. I've also told you that the Sahih al-Bukhari, considered the most reliable of the Hadith by Sunni Muslims claims that the Prophet Muhammad does advocate death for apostates. I've quoted a couple of relevant verses from both works to support my assertion.

If you disagree with my comments thus far about the Quran and the Sahih al-Bukhari, then say so. And why.

I've given you the opening for a so-called "sensible discussion". Away you go.

 

[Total Power]

your belligerance is astounding.

This is simply astounding lol just lol. I am sure if he is deliberately acting stupid or maybe not he really is that stupid. Getting slapped around by 10s of posters in this thread, delusional rants, lying, lack of comprehension skills, dear lord.

 

[clogged]

This is simply astounding lol just lol. I am sure if he is deliberately acting stupid or maybe not he really is that stupid. Getting slapped around by 10s of posters in this thread, delusional rants, lying, lack of comprehension skills, dear lord.

To concede the point he has to accept there are darker aspects of his faith. He is not prepared to reject any elements of it, so will attempt to weasel out of admitting that Islam can be a hateful religion.

 

[Number37]

I've already told you that the Quran does not mention any punishment of death for apostasy. I've also told you that the Sahih al-Bukhari, considered the most reliable of the Hadith by Sunni Muslims claims that the Prophet Muhammad does advocate death for apostates. I've quoted a couple of relevant verses from both works to support my assertion.

If you disagree with my comments thus far about the Quran and the Sahih al-Bukhari, then say so. And why.

I've given you the opening for a so-called "sensible discussion". Away you go.

The Koran specifically mentions apostasy in numerous places and nowhere is there any reference to a punishment of death. (e.g. Koran 3:73, 3:87-90, 3:150) The message is consistent...apostates will answer to God. There are even references to the Prophet being counselled NOT to bother asking forgiveness for apostates, God will deal with them.
There is no reference anywhere where the Prophet said 'kill apostates'.
There are references where a 3rd party is reported to say 'the Prophet said' but they all unclear as to the circumstances.

Let's say the Prophet did give the green light to kill an apostate. Is that the same as giving the green light to kill all apostates?
Given that the Prophet conducted all his affairs by strict reference to what was revealed to him by God (remembering that the Koran is the complete word of God) and in all of those revelations he was never commanded to kill apostates.
It is reasonable to conclude that there never was a general command to kill apostates. The only supporting evidence of an apostate being killed is a specific circumstance where it is unclear whether or not the punishment was for apostasy or some other reason.

The other very important point to remember is that where there is a contradiction between the Koran and the Hadith, the Koran always trumps the Hadith. Even if someone wants to claim that the Prophet said 'kill apostates' the unambiguous word of God (the Koran) says that apostates should be left alone and God will deal with them.

It should be pretty obvious that the only people justifying killing apostates are the nutters. Their only source to back up their claim is overridden by what is written in the Koran, which unambiguously states; let those who believe, believe, let those who disbelieve, disbelieve.

As I have contended all along, even if some Muslims are claiming they have a right to kill apostates that is no reason to trash ALL Muslims. It is especially not a reason to trash Islam, because the ultimate authority on Islam is unambiguous on the subject of apostasy.

It is reasonable to conclude that countries that have the death penalty for apostasy are NOT doing so on the basis of Islam. It is not possible to justify in Islam the death penalty for apostates.
Unfortunately there are many Muslim clergy that have given their seal of approval to death as a penalty for apostasy. If you look at the context of those approvals they almost always centre on your garden variety nationalism rather than from Islamic scripture.

As I have pointed out on numerous occasions, there is only ONE Islam. All Muslims agree with what Islam is, what they don't agree on is how Muslims should or can practice their faith. The difference has bugger all to do with Islam and everything to do with culture. If you go around to the mosques in Sydney or Melbourne you will quickly learn that they are pretty much divided by cultural group. All of them pray, fast, go on Haj and give zakat and of course believe in Allah and Muhammed as his messenger. The rest is derived almost exclusively from culture.

To the point of the thread. What is driving extremism is NOT Islam, yes they are all Muslims, yes they all have Islam as their faith but they are not deriving their extremism from Islam. It is not possible to find extremes in Islamic scripture (or perhaps there is, but you would have to look pretty hard even then you would need to ignore some of the core teachings). That is because Islamic scripture (the Koran) is almost wholly unambiguous. That is kinda the point of it being accepted by believers as the final word of God.