the guy who up anf left a few years into the rescue mission?
Disposals, We Must Improve
- Thread starter Stan_Darsh72
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the guy who up anf left a few years into the rescue mission?
silky, clever...adds polish, but wasted on where we are right now.
he was moved along by us wasn't he?
wasn't happy with the revised payscale probably
Deliberately offered no doubt.
At the risk of turning this into a sports science debate, I agree with some of your points, but there's further context missing.
First of all the use of the number 10,000 worried me, as it was close to using a well-used phrase which is a complete myth and is the bain of most sports science users lives.
The other thing to consider is that they are not just kicking. They are not standing next to a cone, kicking a footy to a player on another cone.
At 18 they move within the sport, but from one level of competition to another. The space available, how quickly that space closes and opens, dynamics of a game, the speed of pressure - it all changes. You have to learn again. I was told by a former AFL player that in his first season he just went back to doing what he did as a young kid, and kicked to areas of the field he thought he should, as he didn't have enough time to decide who to kick to. Then he gradually was able to pick out a target. Then he was able to pick out and judge the lead. Then he eventually after 3 seasons was able to start (in the space of 1 second) to realise who was making leads, to where, at what speed, and then recall how that player likes the ball to come in (low, high etc) and what foot they themselves would want to take the next kick off, and kick to a specific spot and with a certain trajectory accordingly.
So there is still much room for development. Of course however, Steven (and some others) has had plenty time to make those steps.
I don't buy that disposal under pressure isn't part of the plan. Two L3 coaches who are part of the AFL structure told me that is the main thing that coaches these days focus on when doing drills - always doing the skills under pressure in training, and to 'organise training to feel as unorganised as a game feels'.
I think it is part of the plan, and that the coaches (whilst maybe not showing publicly) will be not stressed about it too much right now, but disappointed with it unless it improves as the season goes on.
Kicking is a mechanical action.... Like bowling, walking, swimming.
There are many things to factor in
The natural vs learned
Body size and composition
Combination of fibres
Inherited coordination/ability
Discipline and practice effectiveness
Questions
How can disciplined elite footballers spend their careers as poor kicks, when they train full time in elite an elite environment? If an adult can improve their kicking with coaching why did clint jones kick the ball worse than most junior footballers in local comps? Why were two notoriously lazy trainers Jarman and Lockett possibly the best two kicks ever? Why is Jack Steven missing 20m targets in his 7th year? Why does N.Riewoldt/M.Richardson/T.Cloke miss simple goals.
Quite simply they have technical, physical or mental issues that effect the efficiency of their kicking action. These are inherent, almost impossible to unlearn, and are usually developed by footy players age 8-16.
Honestly, it would be easier to improve the kicking of Jason Holmes than any other player on the list
AFL coaches teach strategy and decision making... Through repetition players get a bit better... But are limited by natural ability.
I have a sports science background, but went into teaching and coaching... As I found biomechanics boring... But studied it at Deakin and used to teach skill acquisition in Y11 PE iirc (a long while ago now)
There are many things to factor in
The natural vs learned
Body size and composition
Combination of fibres
Inherited coordination/ability
Discipline and practice effectiveness
Questions
How can disciplined elite footballers spend their careers as poor kicks, when they train full time in elite an elite environment? If an adult can improve their kicking with coaching why did clint jones kick the ball worse than most junior footballers in local comps? Why were two notoriously lazy trainers Jarman and Lockett possibly the best two kicks ever? Why is Jack Steven missing 20m targets in his 7th year? Why does N.Riewoldt/M.Richardson/T.Cloke miss simple goals.
Quite simply they have technical, physical or mental issues that effect the efficiency of their kicking action. These are inherent, almost impossible to unlearn, and are usually developed by footy players age 8-16.
Honestly, it would be easier to improve the kicking of Jason Holmes than any other player on the list
AFL coaches teach strategy and decision making... Through repetition players get a bit better... But are limited by natural ability.
I have a sports science background, but went into teaching and coaching... As I found biomechanics boring... But studied it at Deakin and used to teach skill acquisition in Y11 PE iirc (a long while ago now)
- May 10, 2013
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Players say & I don't doubt it's true, how much faster an AFL game is compared to a VFL game. So in saying that, we can only expect there to be shmit loads of errors for the younger players, as for the senior players, their errors may come down to not enough talk on the field (not sure about this, any supporters who have seen the NAB cup games would know better). If it is because of lack of talk, then unfortunately that comes back to the speed of the game for the young guns. With a couple of seasons under their belts, IMO we'll see a better skilled side & won't even remember making remarks in this thread. Only about 3years to go, before we start showing the world what we are about. Carn the Saints. 
- Oct 18, 2011
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Oh no - don't get me started on this subject. Simple fact proved time and time again - if they can't kick before they get to AFL - they are never going to make a miraculous improvement.
You may improve around the edges but what really annoys me is when players who are ordinary kicks get drafted on the assumption they will improve markedly. It doesn't occur.
The only "mature" footballers you can actually teach to kick are ones that have never learnt in the first place - Tadgh Keneally, Pearce Hanley, Marty Clarke Zac Tuohy are clear examples
So back to my first two rules of drafting
1 Can they get the ball
2 Can they get rid of it
If they can't do both of those - don't draft them!!!!!
You may improve around the edges but what really annoys me is when players who are ordinary kicks get drafted on the assumption they will improve markedly. It doesn't occur.
The only "mature" footballers you can actually teach to kick are ones that have never learnt in the first place - Tadgh Keneally, Pearce Hanley, Marty Clarke Zac Tuohy are clear examples
So back to my first two rules of drafting
1 Can they get the ball
2 Can they get rid of it
If they can't do both of those - don't draft them!!!!!
Persevering Saint
Brownlow Medallist
There is also the factor of players going where the kicker expects them to go.
Whilst I mostly agree with the premise of your post there are exceptions every now and then. Tom Hawkins and Jack Riewoldt both significantly improved their kicking. Hawkins used to have a shocking inside/out trajectory. He is actually quite a reliable set shot these days. I am hoping Nathan Wright might also prove to be an exception, he looks to have definitely changed his action and he seems to be more confident trying to pinpoint a target. It was evident again in Hawks games before he got injured.
Kildonan
Premium Platinum
Kicking skill plays a big role in giving your team an edge. Goddard was one of the best practitioners of this for us, and Dal Santo was also very good.
The new generation of payers coming through have a lot of skill, some may rival Goddard. Webster is my favourite example because he has a brilliant kick plus he has enormous speed and a good footy brain. He could be a great asset for us going forward. But if we only have one elite kick in our team, oppositions can shut us down by tagging him out of the match. We need multiple targets who are all elite kicks. I think we actually do. Billings is elite and will develop his game into being a very damaging player with the ball in his hands. Savage is another who can hit a target, anticipate a lead and knows his team mates well enough to know that they will feign right before veering left and deliver it directly into the hole they are leading into. Newnes was our only truly elite distributor against Hawks - and the pressure on him was enormous. That he absorbed most of that pressure and was among our best speaks volumes. Spread that responsibility around to several other players and the whole team benefits. Especially if we hold our marks or are out in space and can run on. I have high hopes for a few others: Minchington, Lonie, Sinclair and McKenzie. The kicking skill is already there in these players but we need to keep them on the turf and contributing and DEVELOPING.
The new generation of payers coming through have a lot of skill, some may rival Goddard. Webster is my favourite example because he has a brilliant kick plus he has enormous speed and a good footy brain. He could be a great asset for us going forward. But if we only have one elite kick in our team, oppositions can shut us down by tagging him out of the match. We need multiple targets who are all elite kicks. I think we actually do. Billings is elite and will develop his game into being a very damaging player with the ball in his hands. Savage is another who can hit a target, anticipate a lead and knows his team mates well enough to know that they will feign right before veering left and deliver it directly into the hole they are leading into. Newnes was our only truly elite distributor against Hawks - and the pressure on him was enormous. That he absorbed most of that pressure and was among our best speaks volumes. Spread that responsibility around to several other players and the whole team benefits. Especially if we hold our marks or are out in space and can run on. I have high hopes for a few others: Minchington, Lonie, Sinclair and McKenzie. The kicking skill is already there in these players but we need to keep them on the turf and contributing and DEVELOPING.
Strahany
Premiership Player
All of this talk only serves to propagate, in my mind, the idea of "allowing" Steven to go to Free Agency if it means we get a top 3 compensation pick, and we are confident there is a solid player there to be drafted. If you look at Hawthorn as the benchmark, whilst they have some players who are average in terms of their kicking ability, I feel it's important to note that none of their key ball winners have such deficiencies; said deficient players are normally in the side due to other proficiencies such as elite pace.
Why does this matter? Well, where's the good in picking up around 30 disposals per game if a majority are going to a 50/50 at best, with many being direct turnovers?
It is a massive call, and will remain one throughout the season, but I feel that we need to take every measure we possibly can to construct the elite side that will be required to win a premiership. The side is currently very malleable; we need to capitalise on that before it becomes too deeply set in its structures. Take a look at our 09/10 list; whilst it was certainly one of the best we've ever compiled (probably the best) it had some glaring problems that were too difficult to overcome, and left us stranded in various aspects of our game plan. The problems we did attempt to fix backfired horribly (here's looking at you, Lovett).
Proactivity, not an attempt at reactivity when it's far too late, please.
Why does this matter? Well, where's the good in picking up around 30 disposals per game if a majority are going to a 50/50 at best, with many being direct turnovers?
It is a massive call, and will remain one throughout the season, but I feel that we need to take every measure we possibly can to construct the elite side that will be required to win a premiership. The side is currently very malleable; we need to capitalise on that before it becomes too deeply set in its structures. Take a look at our 09/10 list; whilst it was certainly one of the best we've ever compiled (probably the best) it had some glaring problems that were too difficult to overcome, and left us stranded in various aspects of our game plan. The problems we did attempt to fix backfired horribly (here's looking at you, Lovett).
Proactivity, not an attempt at reactivity when it's far too late, please.
Set shot kicking... As long as the player is mentally strong... Is a far easier skill to work on as it is somewhat closed... It can be routined.
General play kicking is a far different beast, as no two different situations are the same ... In terms of position and target
General play kicking is a far different beast, as no two different situations are the same ... In terms of position and target
