Division System

[rosejam]

Whilst discussing Melbourne and if a Priority pick would help them I started thinking a Division system may actually help clubs like Melbourne and St Kilda.

Based on current ladder.


Division 1
Sydney
Geelong
Hawthorn
Fremantle
Port Adelaide
North Melbourne
Essendon
Adelaide
Richmond

Division 2
Collingwood
Gold Coast
West Coast
Carlton
Western Bulldogs
Brisbane
GWS
Melbourne
St Kilda

• 9 teams per division
• each team plays each other within their division once at home and once away (first truly fair draw) (16 rounds)
• Top 4 of each division play finals
  • Finals format
  • Week one: 1 vs 2 (winner straight through to division grand final, loser to prelim), 3 vs 4 (winner through to prelim)
  • Week two: loser of 1 vs 2 against winner of 3 vs 4 (winner through to division Grand Final)
  • Week three: Division Grand Finals
  • Week four: Rest week
  • Week five: Division Grand Final winners play off for premiership
• Grand final teams of division 2 get promoted, bottom two relegated
• 16 round season with one bye during the season and one in the finals.
• Shorter overall season would allow for a preseason exhibition match like state of origin

Draft system.

• Same order as ladder position except promoted teams swap with relegated teams.
• Priority pick system, if you finish bottom of division 2, two years in a row you obtain an extra pick before the first draft pick of a division 1 team.

I actually really like this, fair draws, higher standard of football, faster potential rebuilds, closer matches incentive for current middle of the road teams to excel, division pride for grand finals (ie I would go for the division representative my team was from)


Thoughts?

 

[invinciBlues]

Nope.

 

[sverik25]

Whilst discussing Melbourne and if a Priority pick would help them I started thinking a Division system may actually help clubs like Melbourne and St Kilda.

Based on current ladder.


Division 1
Sydney
Geelong
Hawthorn
Fremantle
Port Adelaide
North Melbourne
Essendon
Adelaide
Richmond

Division 2
Collingwood
Gold Coast
West Coast
Carlton
Western Bulldogs
Brisbane
GWS
Melbourne
St Kilda

• 9 teams per division
• each team plays each other within their division once at home and once away (first truly fair draw) (16 rounds)
• Top 4 of each division play finals
  • Finals format
  • Week one: 1 vs 2 (winner straight through to division grand final, loser to prelim), 3 vs 4 (winner through to prelim)
  • Week two: loser of 1 vs 2 against winner of 3 vs 4 (winner through to division Grand Final)
  • Week three: Division Grand Finals
  • Week four: Rest week
  • Week five: Division Grand Final winners play off for premiership
• Grand final teams of division 2 get promoted, bottom two relegated
• 16 round season with one bye during the season and one in the finals.
• Shorter overall season would allow for a preseason exhibition match like state of origin

Draft system.

• Same order as ladder position except promoted teams swap with relegated teams.
• Priority pick system, if you finish bottom of division 2, two years in a row you obtain an extra pick before the first draft pick of a division 1 team.

I actually really like this, fair draws, higher standard of football, faster potential rebuilds, closer matches incentive for current middle of the road teams to excel, division pride for grand finals (ie I would go for the division representative my team was from)


Thoughts?

No way, it would just mean that the stronger clubs would continue to get wealthier and the weaker clubs would become financially inviable.

 

[Klaus]

Every year this suggestion comes up when their seems to be a ridiculous gap between the top teams and the bottom. However, this season has proved that on their day the bottom teams can pull something out and cause an upset.

Either way, it will never happen

 

[rosejam]

No way, it would just mean that the stronger clubs would continue to get wealthier and the weaker clubs would become financially inviable.

Because that isn't happening now?

Don't think a truly random draw would help financially? Anzac day? Friday nights?

 

[sverik25]

Because that isn't happening now?

Don't think a truly random draw would help financially? Anzac day? Friday nights?

A truly random draw would help financially, but not when you have divisions. All of the blockbusters, media attention and best time slots would surely still go to the team in the first division, and those clubs in the second division lose the opportunity to play against bigger drawing clubs from the first division. As far as I'm concerned it would only exacerbate the gap.

 

[juss]

Not going to happen. Overly complicated and unnecessary in our game.
The reasons divisions exist in America in the NFL for example is to prevent teams having to travel across the entire width of the country every second week in an east vs west coast scenario.

 

[rosejam]

A truly random draw would help financially, but not when you have divisions. All of the blockbusters, media attention and best time slots would surely still go to the team in the first division, and those clubs in the second division lose the opportunity to play against bigger drawing clubs from the first division. As far as I'm concerned it would only exacerbate the gap.

The bigger drawing clubs like Carlton and Collingwood who would be in division 2 next year under this system?

I'd also imagine St Kilda and Melbourne crowds would be up if they didn't get smashed as often, which surely under this system they wouldn't.

 

[Sttew]

Like the theory but will NEVER happen. Would adversely impact on TV rights and undermine viability of competition.

 

[sverik25]

The bigger drawing clubs like Carlton and Collingwood who would be in division 2 next year under this system?

I'd also imagine St Kilda and Melbourne crowds would be up if they didn't get smashed as often, which surely under this system they wouldn't.

Do you really want to see St Kilda stuck in a division, where no matter how well they play, the best they can hope is to win promotion and focus on next season? From my point of view, it's great to see clubs like West Coast finish 16th one year and 4th the next, and Port Adelaide go from 15th to 7th in a year as well.

 

[rosejam]

Not going to happen. Overly complicated and unnecessary in our game.
The reasons divisions exist in America in the NFL for example is to prevent teams having to travel across the entire width of the country every second week in an east vs west coast scenario.

Agree it will likely never happen.

Disagree its overly complicated, in fact this fixture would be less complicated than the current one and there would be no question of certain clubs getting easier draws etc.

Like the theory but will NEVER happen. Would adversely impact on TV rights and undermine viability of competition.

Also agree it will likely never happen. I think it would enhance the viability of the competition personally. Yes financially the AFL might have to a go a year without posting as big a profit but would still turn a profit, especially if you take the opportunity to fixture some exhibition games.

Do you really want to see St Kilda stuck in a division, where no matter how well they play, the best they can hope is to win promotion and focus on next season? From my point of view, it's great to see clubs like West Coast finish 16th one year and 4th the next, and Port Adelaide go from 15th to 7th in a year as well?

Short answer is yes.

I remember us being stuck at the bottom of the ladder for most of my life. The best they can hope for in division two under proposed system is to win division two and then beat the division one grand final winner.

I'd argue Port Adelaide would be better off for next year under a division system.

And under this system St Kilda might win a Grand Final in my lifetime haha

 

[Underarm]

Based on last years ladder, Carlton and collingwood would be in the bottom of div 1, port and Adelaide top of div 2.
So mid year when Richmond were 3-10 and Port were on top of the ladder, tigers would have been higher.


Divisions 'work' in EPL because because clubs improve in increments and for those at the bottom, not being relegated is a successful year, and is the goal for the first 2 or 3 years in the EPL. We have a system which is on a cycle where teams should compete for a few years then drop off a bit before they can compete again.

 

[sverik25]

Agree it will likely never happen.

Disagree its overly complicated, in fact this fixture would be less complicated than the current one and there would be no question of certain clubs getting easier draws etc.



Also agree it will likely never happen. I think it would enhance the viability of the competition personally. Yes financially the AFL might have to a go a year without posting as big a profit but would still turn a profit, especially if you take the opportunity to fixture some exhibition games.



Short answer is yes.

I remember us being stuck at the bottom of the ladder for most of my life. The best they can hope for in division two under proposed system is to win division two and then beat the division one grand final winner.

I'd argue Port Adelaide would be better off for next year under a division system.

And under this system St Kilda might win a Grand Final in my lifetime haha

Isn't this a limitation of your own theory?

 

[rosejam]

Isn't this a limitation of your own theory?

Yes.

How many times in history has a team outside of the top 8 one the flag the next year?

Especially since the new finals system was introduced.

 

[sverik25]

Yes.

How many times in history has a team outside of the top 8 one the flag the next year?

Especially since the new finals system was introduced.

I'm confused, you're contradicting yourself.

 

[rosejam]

I'm confused, you're contradicting yourself.

Yes I agree it is a limitation of my own theory.

But I counter that by saying there aren't many occasions in history where that limitation doesn't already appear to exist regardless.

 

[port_adelaide_1870]

Why does every constantly want to change our game? Just leave it the way it is.

 

[sverik25]

Yes I agree it is a limitation of my own theory.

But I counter that by saying there aren't many occasions in history where that limitation doesn't already appear to exist regardless.

Ok I'll give you that, teams haven't won flags very often after missing the finals the year before, but remember back to the start of 2004. St Kilda went on a big winning streak after missing the finals the year before and the excitement amongst Saints fans was fantastic. There'd be no opportunity for something like this under your system.

 

[Upgrayedd]

You are worse then a lovechild between kb and andy d. Hellbent on destroying our lovely game and adding layers of complexity with no regard for why it would not work and can not work.

 

[Furn2]

Are you saying that a division 2 side can not only win the premiership but there will be a division 2 side playing off for it every year ?

 

[ThisIsJake]

The AFL is a business and this would be terrible business.

 

[Admiral Byng]

This comes up every year. I'm still yet to hear a convincing argument in favour of it.

Once you split the competition into two divisions you automatically reduce the worth and the commercial value of the lower division. Not a good business move in terms of TV rights and attracting sponsors. The teams that will miss out will be the struggling teams down the bottom. I'm yet to see any proposal that can work around this drawback.

 

[hcd199]

Whilst discussing Melbourne and if a Priority pick would help them I started thinking a Division system may actually help clubs like Melbourne and St Kilda.

Based on current ladder.


Division 1
Sydney
Geelong
Hawthorn
Fremantle
Port Adelaide
North Melbourne
Essendon
Adelaide
Richmond

Division 2
Collingwood
Gold Coast
West Coast
Carlton
Western Bulldogs
Brisbane
GWS
Melbourne
St Kilda

• 9 teams per division
• each team plays each other within their division once at home and once away (first truly fair draw) (16 rounds)
• Top 4 of each division play finals
  • Finals format
  • Week one: 1 vs 2 (winner straight through to division grand final, loser to prelim), 3 vs 4 (winner through to prelim)
  • Week two: loser of 1 vs 2 against winner of 3 vs 4 (winner through to division Grand Final)
  • Week three: Division Grand Finals
  • Week four: Rest week
  • Week five: Division Grand Final winners play off for premiership
• Grand final teams of division 2 get promoted, bottom two relegated
• 16 round season with one bye during the season and one in the finals.
• Shorter overall season would allow for a preseason exhibition match like state of origin

Draft system.

• Same order as ladder position except promoted teams swap with relegated teams.
• Priority pick system, if you finish bottom of division 2, two years in a row you obtain an extra pick before the first draft pick of a division 1 team.

I actually really like this, fair draws, higher standard of football, faster potential rebuilds, closer matches incentive for current middle of the road teams to excel, division pride for grand finals (ie I would go for the division representative my team was from)


Thoughts?

There are a number of problems I have with this.

Firstly, a divided competition is not a unified competition, and your model exposes this horribly - no games between teams from Div 1 and Div 2 in the regular season at all? As one competition, each team plays every other team in the competition; in your model, the divisions might as well be as distinct as two state leagues, such is the lack of overlap between them. Top draft picks would have little to no opportunity to play against the best sides, so the argument that it helps teams improve is fairly selective in the benefits it focuses on.

Secondly, given it's done by team strength, the point everyone has been making is highly relevant: there will be substantially reduced interest in the second tier competition, resulting in significant financial disparity between clubs, which is detrimental to the desire for a fairer competition.

Thirdly, your grand final involves the two division winners playing off against each other? That runs directly against the tiered nature of your system, as it suddenly implies an equality to division standards when the rest of the system is built around the difference in standard between the two. I can't see the reasoning behind having the premiership decider played between the equivalent of 1st and 10th in the current system.

Division pride? Nonsense, why would I support a Div 1 team against a Div 2 team just because North happened to play against that Div 1 team twice in that season? Fair draws can be formed without needing to have teams only compete against half the competition's teams. I don't think this would give a "higher standard of football", teams that drop or rise sharply nowadays would end up their division's easybeats or dominating their division... proposals of a similarly radical ilk are raised frequently, and I simply don't see why the competition needs to undergo such a radical shift to solve particular problems: in resolving the problems that they do, radical proposals like this only create greater and less desirable problems.

 

[holy diver]

Not going to happen. Overly complicated and unnecessary in our game.
The reasons divisions exist in America in the NFL for example is to prevent teams having to travel across the entire width of the country every second week in an east vs west coast scenario.

Current AFL teams have to do that now and deal with the disadvantages of it.

 

[Slax]

I notice no mention of free agency, salary cap and other issues.

Terrible idea which will create a permanently uneven competition and destroy the AFL completely. TV rights would halve, crowds fall and financial problems for div 2 clubs made worse.

Pretty sure you'd get backing from FFA, NRL & ARU for the idea though.