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Society/Culture Do conservatives reject reality?

Discussion in 'Society, Religion and Politics' started by Old Skool, Apr 12, 2012.

Put it out there
  1. Malifice

    Malifice Moderator

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    Re: Is conservatism a form of mental illness?

    Kant (IIRC) was of the opinion that absolute rationality is impossible - no decsion is made in a moral or subjective vaccum.

    We could get easily get sidetracked into a PoMo debate here!

    Also, an irrational person (to you or I) could claim (and honestly believe) to be acting rationally. Who are you or I to say any differently?

    Im basing 'rationality' on the following critereon:
    • A logically cohesive paradigm or framework
    • Supported by accepted evidence and empiricism
    • Holds up to peer review and critique
    • Internally consistent
    • Independent of prejudice
    I uphold liberalism as my logically cohesive paradigm.

    It may lead to some disturbing conclusions (for example I support consenting incestous relationships on these grounds, notwithstanding I personally find the idea repulsive), but it follows from the above.

    For an example of inconsistent arguments see Medusulas arguments re refugees. He has no issue with the mandatory and indefinate detention of asylum seeker children (offshore) by the Executive absent any Judicial review by the State, all enacted via retrospective legislation, yet he opposes racial villification laws.

    Despite claiming to be a 'libertarian'.

    And subsequently found sane.

    The correct decsion (from an outsiders perspective). He had legal capacity.

    On the topic of harsher sentences, I cannot believe he will only get 20 years. Throw away the key.

    My inner conservative rises to the surface again!

    To be honest, when my eyes were opened and my conservative paradigm shattered, it was the best day of my life. Releasing the anger and realising that the world was a lot more complex than I thought it was.

    Didnt sleep the whole night though.

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  2. Clay Davis

    Clay Davis Premiership Player

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    Re: Is conservatism a form of mental illness?

    When did the title change?
  3. Old Skool

    Old Skool Account Cancelled by User

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    Farewell thread, it was nice knowing you.
  4. Malifice

    Malifice Moderator

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    Shit thread.
  5. holy diver

    holy diver ΑΩ

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    The far right is a bizarre machine. It has an agenda to promote a world running on morality (christian values) yet the world actually runs on economics, which is another cornerstone of conservative values. It certainly seems at (especially within the USA) that far right/conservative policy is not rooted in the reality of the world in which we live. Libertarianism.
    To be fair all sides of politics can be guilty of this though.
  6. cancat

    cancat Account Cancelled by User

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    Conservative does not equal far right. Is Gillard far right?

    If you believe in libertarianism, conservatives are not the problem.

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  7. Old Skool

    Old Skool Account Cancelled by User

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    Mods, feel free to drop this thread in question time when you're ready.

    It has officially beeen overrun by absurdity.
  8. holy diver

    holy diver ΑΩ

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    Look overseas at the US GOP presidential candidates. Popular conservatism is certainly marching towards the far right at present. You have The Tea Party GOP controlled state senates. Certainly not reality based unless you think dinosaurs walked with Jesus should be taught in classrooms. Cuckoo
    Thankfully it's not so bad here in Australia.

    [
    Choice in relation to governements is an illusion.
  9. medusala

    medusala Premiership Player

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    Re: Is conservatism a form of mental illness?

    Fascism is derived from socialism.

    You really are clueless. I have no time for fascism it is abhorrent to liberals.


    You get nothing. The concept of meritocracy is completely beyond you.


    The neo fascist parties in the west appeal to blue collar workers ie ex labour / social democrats.

    You are digging a big hole for yourself attempting to equate conservatism with racism. It isnt simply a case of today not being true it wasnt in the past either. It was Fraser who let in Vietnamese refugees when Gough wouldnt. It was the labour movement that demanded WAP. It was Roosevelt that stood on the side of the slaves. It was the Tories who ended slavery (and that great labour bastion Liverpool was the key slaving port).

    Another philosophy topic which you are wrecking with your nonsense.

    Go and google Edmund Burke.

    The Tea Party is no more God bothering than the US in general. As for reality: they are the only ones who have a clue re the US debt situation. It is the msm who are in utter denial.
  10. Monniehawk

    Monniehawk Team Captain

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    Not an entirely satisfactory description, but the gist of it is at least useful..

    I think this is quite true.
    In the same way, socialist totalitarianism is equally abhorrent to most on the left.
    I think you will find Mal's was a reference was to a perception of your previous racist comments - not your adherence to the concept of meritocracy.
    No, now!
    We both explained above how such generality is a nonsense.
    Your statement should more accurately read as "neo-fascist parties inthe west ALSO appeal to SOME blue collar..."
    I appreciate your zeal in trying to defend conservativism, but your statement attempts to create a historical myth.

    Historically, you are quite entitled to claim the right has been proactive in the reform of slavery. Many of its leaders were actively involved in challenging racist policies. It is bordering on revisionism to try to whitewash them entirely. However, it is worth adding that many of the right were also involved in slavery's establishment and its subsequent defence.

    Sadly, so too of the left.
    Racism is more a mentality than a political paradigm, although it is not unfairly ascribed more to the current extreme 'right' and many moderates unfairly bear an associative guilt.
    BTW, Like the conservatives, 'Labour' is a broad church. It has a very strong 'right' faction, too.

    Careful! You are being very selective. It could open up an embarrassing array of examples that would directly discredit your assertions!
    I can't accept this - at any level. The Tea Party is clearly, overtly and almost paranoid, in its evangelical stance. That is undeniable. There are very strong areas of the US that are quite moderate, so to allude that The Tea Party is mainstream is quite spurious - as well as baseless. It paints a very distorted picture of mainstream America.
    The other assertions are also simply opinions; not facts or even supported in any way.
  11. Tex_21

    Tex_21 All Australian

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    Before this devolves (further) into a Malifice v meds 80 pages of debate on whether Mill jacked with his left or right hand, trying to understand a point of view that your own values leave you opposed to is all but impossible. This doesn't just apply to the 'political' spectrum.

    For me, its soccer fans. I don't get the draw to the game, find it irreparably boring, but millions around the world seem to love it. Maybe there is a parrallel here?

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  12. Old Skool

    Old Skool Account Cancelled by User

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    Do you actually read their stuff?
  13. Tex_21

    Tex_21 All Australian

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    Have in the past - the arguments seem to run a very similar track most of the time (as do mine with various people on here, meds included). Even Mal has alluded to that in this thread.

    EDIT: The arguments centre around the definition of "liberalism" which both have (widely) varying claims too.
  14. Malifice

    Malifice Moderator

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    You reckon those pushing for Sharia Law (and the Nationalists opposing them such as Gert Wilders) are liberals?

    You dont oppose people pushing for Fundamentalism with Nationalism.
  15. Malifice

    Malifice Moderator

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    Re: Is conservatism a form of mental illness?

    So? The Neo-conservative movement in the USA sprang from Liberals during the Vietnam era. Doesnt make the NeoCons (or the Fascists) 'left wing'.

    For what its worth Socialism isnt necessary 'left wing'. Many forms of communism are quite Right wing.

    Weve covered this Meds, youre not a Liberal.

    And what specificically do you disaprove of re Fascism. It really seems right up your alley re Nationalsim and persecution of foregners and minorities and Meritocracy.

    No argument from me there.

    But they are not supporting far right parties out of a love for 'socialism'.

    Its appeals to jingoism and fear of migrants mainly.

    GTFO.

    How many lefties have you met that are racist?

    The right (in particular the far right) are cleary associated with racism, nationalism, xenophobia and nativism.

    Its central to the dogma of the right.
  16. medusala

    medusala Premiership Player

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    Why did Wilders come to prominence? Why is the far left (or far right if you are the BBC) fascism movement so promiment all across western Europe?

    How is it possible this has happened with the not so distant memory of WWII?

    What could possibly explain this? Most certainly it is NOT nationalism given the efforts of the EU.

    If not fascism then what else could have caused this?

    Most of them. Affirmative action is by definition racist. Multicultural spending is racist. The left panders to the ethnic minority vote => blatant racism. The racism that you absolutely love. The racism all classical liberals despise with a passion.

    One doesnt need to be a genius to work out why labour/left supporters are more racist. The rich who on average vote liberal/conservative gain from ethnic immigration as its a cheap labour source.

    The poor, however, dont like it due to the competition for jobs and supression of wages.

    That is why the likes of the BNP appear in solidly left wing seats like Bradford and Tower Hamlets. They dont pop up in Chelsea.

    So Smith, Mill and Burke had racism at the core of their beliefs?
  17. Malifice

    Malifice Moderator

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    For many of the same reasons Hitler did.

    Appeals to nationalism and hatred/ antagonism of a religious and ethnic minority who are percieved to be responsible for the nations ills.

    Populist xenophobic rhetoric.

    Look at his political manifesto entitled 'Clear Wine'.

    Title speaks for itself.

    Meds, youre acting as if far right nationalism is a new phenomenon in Europe. Its not. Although the recent surge in it is troubling.

    Same old rhetoric however. Just replace 'Jew' and 'Zionism' with 'Muslim' and 'Islamification'.

    Its not left wing parties that are pushing for ultra nationalism and persecution of religious and ethnic minorities.

    Quite the opposite.

    You kidding? Nationalsim plays a massive part. A vocal section of Europe feel disenfranchised that their 'nationhood' is being diluted via the EU. Look at Eurosceptic political parties (almost all of which are on the 'far right' side of the political spectrum). Mix that with a healthy dose of anti Muslim rhetoric and you get the major platforms of far right European parties.
  18. medusala

    medusala Premiership Player

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    No I am not. The reason for the resurgence is very simple and indisputable.

    It is immigration and multiculturalism and in particular Islamic immigration.

    The extremists (for want of not getting in to a left/right argument) gained in the polls because typically all parties went along with the immigration / multicultural policies and because PR is typical in Europe ie it didnt matter who you voted for the policy would stay in place.

    The amount of the vote they get across Europe is staggering.

    Once again it isnt about nationalism. If it were there would be a mass of opinion for countries to leave the EU. Ex the UK there isnt too much of that (and now maybe Greece)
  19. Tex_21

    Tex_21 All Australian

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    Nationalism does not have to be in a majority to be in existence. How do you explain the rise of parties like Wilders', and the "True Finns"? Parties with strong nationalist undertones (and quite often far more open than that).
  20. medusala

    medusala Premiership Player

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    Tex, I dont disagree. See Wales and Scotland. My argument re nationalism is to do with the EU. A large % of legislation in member countries is due to the EU. Member countries have lost control over many areas like border control, fisheries, agriculture, ECHR etc. Yet this isnt the big issue for most of these parties.

    One could easily argue that UKIP for example is both conservative and nationalist because they want to leave the EU. However they are a mile apart from the other quasi fascist parties in terms of policies (ie they are very libertarian). The true Finns IIRC are a bit different in that they came to prominence due to the EU bailout fund.

    This is something which will become IMO far more prominent sooner rather than later due to the EU's problems.
  21. philohk

    philohk on holiday by mistake

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    Back to the topic, we all reject reality to some degree. I read an interesting book recently on this and was going to start a similar thread. It’s called The Authoritarians, available here in pdf: http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

    The basic argument, which I agree with and I don’t think is new, is that authoritarian thinkers value power / authority / hierarchy over accuracy / open investigation / questioning. The author has developed an index and tests that he gives out, and there are some case studies like world-political simulations and expansions on Milgram. He also discusses their weaker grasp of logic, higher levels of fear, mistrust of outsiders and a few other interesting things.

    One thing that’s worth highlighting is that these authoritarians will be similar across political systems, e.g. those in the USSR / FSU subscribed to authoritarian communism just as much as those in the West do authoritarian structures here. It’s more about the established authority, after all.

    In the West, that does tend to mean the conservative side of politics. But to me, it also explains well why mainstream progressives are almost as self-deceiving. They may want to make a few policy reforms and tinker with the system, but they’re not really revisionists. If you drill down to their core beliefs, they accept the system for no other reason than its hegemony. As was pointed out earlier, no decision is made in a vacuum – they’re all in a time and space and based on values of some kind. For progressives, those values are almost as close to the status quo as those of conservatives.


    Just wanted to reply to a few peripheral things as well: re slavery, it also (mainly?) ended due to economic reasons. A slave economy couldn’t progress into broader capitalism as it didn’t create consumers. Meds, the Tea Party folks don’t realise that debt isn’t really a problem when it’s denominated in your own currency and you can just print more – it’s when you have to pay back foreign currency it becomes crippling. bowie cash, economics is not a cornerstone of conservative values – see Marx. Actually there is a lot of revisionist political economy coming to prominence in the wake of the GFC.
  22. holy diver

    holy diver ΑΩ

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    Re: Is conservatism a form of mental illness?


    I suggest you google the amount of creationist/intellgent design education targeted legislation that tea party GOP politicans have been attempting to push through... or forced ultrasounds for women seeking abortion. Reduce funding for family planning your flavour? Winding back social services and lowering taxes will not reduce debt. Surely you aren't fooled by the illusion of political claims.
  23. Cheech14

    Cheech14 Team Captain

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    The Libertarians have it right.

    I leave you alone, you leave me alone.

    That way we can all be who we want to be.

    Just don't be who you want to be on my property or I'll shoot you.
  24. Cheech14

    Cheech14 Team Captain

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    Re: Is conservatism a form of mental illness?

    The Tea Party got hijacked years back.

    The Libertarians got pushed out slowly by the NeoCons so that what you have today isn't what they were originally about.
  25. holy diver

    holy diver ΑΩ

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    God Bless America!