Do your local police need armoured fighting vehicles?

[Smiling Buddha]

Yes, but the common thread of your posts lately has caused me to question your objectivity, which dilutes the value I assign to your posts.

I am not asking you to 'assign value' to my posts. In this thread I have provided objective evidence (such as the photo and video supplied in the OP) and then asked people for their opinions.

But to assert that our culture mirrors that of the US to the extent that similar things will happen here is tenuous as best.

I didn't use the word 'mirror', you did; I said we tend to follow their trends and this is self-evidently true.

We do not have the same gun/weapon oriented culture that the US have

No but there are more guns in this country now than there were immediately before Port Arthur and Howard's gun buyback scheme.

If one can justify the police having ARMOURED PERSONNEL CARRIERS to roam the streets, based on the armament of the populace, then Australia's further escalation of police militarisation is already justifiable, and the underlying statistics to support this logic will only go further the way of supporting militarisation.

As I always say: look at the trends.

So what I want to know from people is how they would feel about their local police having some of the bad-boys pictured in the OP, because that is where the trends suggest we are heading.

 

[checkraiseulite]

I am not asking you to 'assign value' to my posts. In this thread I have provided objective evidence (such as the photo and video supplied in the OP) and then asked people for their opinions.

You didn't present it objectively though.

Your op contained facts but, to go all Caesar on you this is a straight forward argumentum ad metum.

 

[courtjester]

If society in Australia reaches the point where these are necessary, then let the poor bloody cops have 'em.

Hopefully most of Australia is a long way off needing these, but they seem a reasonable device to have in major cities.

Hopefully they roll a couple down my local mall and take out a few of the teenage "gangstas" who congregate down there...

 

[Catfish Alley]

Wouldn't be great. Have you written your local station or MP to address your concerns? They may provide better information than a bunch of people on a footy forum.

 

[BALKAN]

The only reason local police would need this kind of artillery is if they're fearing an attack from Aussie citizens.
Don't be surprised if one of those armoured vehicles comes barrelling into your living room one Sunday evening.

 

[Smiling Buddha]

You didn't present it objectively though.

Nonsense.

Your op contained facts but, to go all Caesar on you this is a straight forward argumentum ad metum.

You accuse me of committing a logical fallacy. What was the fallacy? What chain of logic did I present with which you take umbrage?

You'll have to do more than repeat latin terms to impress anybody who is properly engaged in this debate.

 

[checkraiseulite]

The last paragraph of the op is a straight forward appeal to fear rather than logic.

 

[MrCharisma]

Cops here in QLD were just given segways, they're obviously only used as a form of intimidation and a show of force. Military-standard armoured vehicles are probably next on the agenda. Disgusting.

 

[Illinois Nazi]

A senior officer in WAPOL has suggested to the Mounted section that they could save money by replacing the horses with scooters.

Seriously.

 

[nicky]

The last paragraph of the op is a straight forward appeal to fear rather than logic.

This has been my issue with your recent threads SB. Although the content is probably valid the attempt to manipulate emotions is as insulting as when mainstream media try the same thing.

Just give us the dry content sans the emotional manipulation.

 

[Smiling Buddha]

The last paragraph of the op is a straight forward appeal to fear rather than logic.

On the contrary, the logic is straightforward.

Premise 1: The US is militarizing its police (to the point of having AFVs sent to local police departments)
Premise 2: We in this country tend to follow the trends set in the US.
Conclusion: We may soon see similar militarisation of our own police.

This argument is supported by the evidence I provided - including the photos (with links) produced which show our police forces are already being militarised with armoured personnel carriers.

Now, you might personally find this scary, but this does not make the argument logically fallacious.

Sometimes the truth is confronting. Sure. But attacking those who seek to elucidate the facts of a matter is no solution to the problem. It is a juvenile response to a situation which requires sound, rational thinking.

If you find an problem with the evidence I provide, please point it out. If you find a problem with the chain of logic I use, please point it out. But don't resort to childish ad hominem attacks on myself, or deceitful use of latin terms to make sweeping (and inaccurate) criticisms of my arguments. You can do better.

 

[Illinois Nazi]

Your logical fallacy was to show specialist anti-riot equipment in Australia and imply it somehow equated to the local Police Station patrol vehicle.

 

[Smiling Buddha]

Your logical fallacy was to show specialist anti-riot equipment in Australia and imply it somehow equated to the local Police Station patrol vehicle.

I suspect that you do not know what a logical fallacy is. Here you go, learn.

And are you claiming that the APCs shown earlier are mere 'anti-riot equipment'? With that kind of spin you ought to apply for a job at VicPol; even they don't pretend that that is all those vehicles are for.

 

[checkraiseulite]

The way you have structured the argument there is different to how you structured it in the op and other similar threads in the same vein. The op was, at least in part, an appeal to fear and I discounted it on that basis, notwithstanding the fact that I agree with you that civilian police forces, here or in the us, should not be militarised to the extent depicted in the photo in the op.

 

[Smiling Buddha]

Cops here in QLD were just given segways, they're obviously only used as a form of intimidation and a show of force. Military-standard armoured vehicles are probably next on the agenda. Disgusting.

Too late.

Just your friendly Queensland Police. As their motto says, 'Firmness with courtesy'.

 

[Illinois Nazi]

I suspect that you do not know what a logical fallacy is. Here you go, learn.

And are you claiming that the APCs shown earlier are mere 'anti-riot equipment'? With that kind of spin you ought to apply for a job at VicPol; even they don't pretend that that is all those vehicles are for.

I'm sure that's not all they are for. However, they are not for local police stations to patrol the suburbs in, which was your implication.

 

[checkraiseulite]

It's also important to note the distinction between specialist anti-riot "sections" in the police force having such vehicles (as I'm guessing is depicted in the photo a couple posts up), and local stations having something a kin to a tank at their disposal at the local cop shop.

 

[Gough]

I'm not sure I agree with your second premise SB, I would argue that Australia has moved pointedly away from some of the more militaristic aspects of the American culture as the consequences of arming your populus to the teeth become clearer and clearer.

 

[Smiling Buddha]

I agree with you that civilian police forces, here or in the us, should not be militarised to the extent depicted in the photo in the op.

As rational, educated people, why don't we spend more of our time and efforts on the things we can agree upon, rather than looking for ways to 'reject' the opinions of others or deride their particular characteristics?

 

[JuddsABlue]

Id be concerned if our police force didnt have these types of vehicles at the ready

 

[Handsuper47]

Nope.

 

[Smiling Buddha]

It's also important to note the distinction between specialist anti-riot "sections" in the police force having such vehicles (as I'm guessing is depicted in the photo a couple posts up), and local stations having something a kin to a tank at their disposal at the local cop shop.

And do you think America began with armoured vehicles being sent to local police departments? Or do you think that maybe they too started off giving such vehicles only to 'specialised' 'sections'?

Like the frog in boiling water...

I'm not sure I agree with your second premise SB, I would argue that Australia has moved pointedly away from some of the more militaristic aspects of the American culture as the consequences of arming your populus to the teeth become clearer and clearer.

On what basis do you make that assessment?

I don't know about back home but up here in QLD the police are getting decked out with body armour as we speak.

QLD police union wants bigger guns, body armour
October 23, 2013

QLD police to get body armour amid fears of reprisals from bikie gangs
November 4, 2013

That is NOT moving away from militarisation. Read the articles, they want urban police to be issued with rifles as standard issue.

Semi-automatic rifles ffs.

 

[Illinois Nazi]

This sort of equipment mostly comes down to the rise of OHS in recent times.

It's no longer acceptable to send cops into dangerous situations with only a notebook and a "deal with it".

 

[Gough]

And do you think America began with armoured vehicles being sent to local police departments? Or do you think that maybe they too started off giving such vehicles only to 'specialised' 'sections'?

Like the frog in boiling water...

On what basis do you make that assessment?

I don't know about back home but up here in QLD the police are getting decked out with body armour as we speak.

QLD police union wants bigger guns, body armour
October 23, 2013

QLD police to get body armour amid fears of reprisals from bikie gangs
November 4, 2013

That is NOT moving away from militarisation. Read the articles, they want urban police to be issued with rifles as standard issue.

Queensland's Old Bill has the best friend in government that it has had for years, they'll never get a better chance to ask for toys, and it suits Newman's narrative to a tee. I'd argue that Howard's gun ban in the wake of Port Arthur and the overwhelming public support for it shows that Australia has a very different attitude to firearms than America.

 

[Smiling Buddha]

It's no longer acceptable to send cops into dangerous situations with only a notebook and a "deal with it".

See, look at this nonsense. Why are you even in this thread? You are clearly not here to deal in facts or reality.

Queensland's Old Bill has the best friend in government that it has had for years, they'll never get a better chance to ask for toys, and it suits Newman's narrative to a tee. I'd argue that Howard's gun ban in the wake of Port Arthur and the overwhelming public support for it shows that Australia has a very different attitude to firearms than America.

One, I have already posted links which reveal that there are more guns in Australia now than there were immediately before Port Arthur and Howard's gun buyback scheme.

Two, disarming the population (whether successful or not) is an entirely different matter to whether or not the police are being militarised.