Does the web stay or go? Or modify it?

[Hardhat11]

It failed at the MCG under heat. Let's be very clear about that.

It worked well all year

This is actually the biggest question thus club will face all summer, do we persist with something on the hope it can still work or do we need to modify it

Will Eric Mackenzie and brown disband it through their presence?

It's massive decision that Simpson needs to make in th off seasons.

 

[Bacchus]

Agree with the above. It failed today.

How did Cyril and Gunston get on their own so often? This was not a failure of unforced errors but structure.

 

[woosha24]

Keep it, but tweak it. Needs to be able to be applied on wider grounds like the G.

Also needs to have a "defensive transition" when opposition players are looking to kick/ run through it. Hawks cut us up today by picking out the free man and running through the guys guarding space.

As an aside - please Simmo: get an amateur Rugby side in over the preseason to teach our guys how to lay a f*cking tackle. So sick and tired of watching our boys being shrugged off in tackles.

 

[Keys]

The web fails when we turn the ball over

It works wonderfully when we force turnovers

It is one part of our overall gameplan not the extent of it

It needs to be tweaked but it's an execution issue more than a planning issue

 

[swannies]

Agree with the above. It failed today.

How did Cyril and Gunston get on their own so often? This was not a failure of unforced errors but structure.

Not necessarily structure, no. Possibly a failure in mindset, or concentration. Someone not doing their job properly, perhaps???

 

[YippeeYiYeo]

while we have the narrow ground of Subiaco for 2 more years - keep it. Really need to look at how Cyril got free so open today though.

As far as tackling goes - is anyone surprised? Our web has us zone off defenders, carrall the opposition kicker and pressure them into a rushed kick, before trying to intercept mark or spoil down the ground.

 

[EagleShore]

Modify the defensive structure to enable a transition to man-on-man when the opposition is moving dangerously through the zone...eg. opposition kicks into the web or around it, taking a mark and looking to move it on. This is where the deeper defenders need to man-up while the players closer to the opponent with the ball apply pressure to affect the quality of disposal.

So many times you can see a team looking threatening with the ball despite the web, and it is at that moment a modification should be made to make them second-guess the movement. North made it look easy early in the PF but ran out of puff, and yesterday with Hawthorn there were a dozen or more moments where you could see an inevitable score unfolding even when they were still in their defensive half of the ground.

I thought the wider 'G wouldn't compromise the web's efficacy (as the web is designed to defend the immediate field of play, not the whole ground), but Hawthorn stretched us laterally with absolute class. Clarkson basically opened up the web. Deserved his fourth premiership as he is clearly still the best coach in the business.

 

[wraglesweb]

Honestly think we just played one of our poorer game's this year.. Our game plan works when we are switched on but in this case the boys were nervous timid and flustered..Skills were non existent NO game plan could of worked yesterday...The boy's really did lower thier colours yesterday let's hope the pain of that drives them next year !!

 

[EagleShore]

The web fails when we turn the ball over
It works wonderfully when we force turnovers
It is one part of our overall gameplan not the extent of it
It needs to be tweaked but it's an execution issue more than a planning issue

Yes, we turned it over so many times yesterday and Hawthorn have been the number one team at scoring from turnovers in 2015. We made many mistakes at half forward and through the midfield during our attacking transitions, and the Hawks made us pay a heavy price on most occasions.

 

[Prem87]

Agree with the above. It failed today.

How did Cyril and Gunston get on their own so often? This was not a failure of unforced errors but structure.

It's failed several times this year.

Adelaide, North and Hawks have torn it apart.

For it to work we need to have scoreboard pressure, win the clearances and lock it in the forward line - we did none of those yesterday.

 

[floodbuster]

No forward line pressure is what hurt you not the web failing, some of those missed shots, dropped marks and freaky Hawthorn goals just destroyed all momentum.

 

[ConcreteWaters]

We keep it, but hopefully the team evolves so that it's one setup of many depending on the state of the game. Simmo's hand has been forced this year to play such an attacking zone off style because of the injuries, but EMac and Brown back next year will give more flexibility to be able to have a setup that permits defenders to go one on one with their opponents (more defensive).
It's obviously able to be exposed if a team can tie up play get a quick ball out the back (which was North's tactic last week-that level of contested footy is hard to sustain though), or if the team is highly skilled and can pinpoint through the zone (the Hawks- which is part of their gameplan as well, to be more skilled and make less mistakes than the opposition). We got the worst of both worlds yesterday with the Hawks being on song, and our skills being well down (creating turnovers and that uncontested ball with our players going the wrong way). It's great for a team with big forwards, as there is a mismatch with mobility, but the Hawks are more dangerous on the ground in the forwardline, so it's always going to be tougher to implement against them.
A couple of weeks ago, Guy McKenna mentioned on ABC that they had tried to employ a version of the web at the Pies, but it relies on the whole back 6 being committed, and James Clement wouldn't leave his man, so the setup wouldn't work. The system is reliant on 100% committment to the structure (which we have been very good at for 90% of our games), and is therefore vulnerable to either ill discipline or players not playing well (and our players were well down yesterday). We need something to go to when this doesn't work. Again, tall defenders will give us more options to go more defensive and lock down the opposition.

In short- hopefully the gameplan will evolve. Simmo would've planned a structure with EMac being at fullback taking the goliath forward. Guys like Shep, Wellingham and Gov, who have performed magnificently this year under a lot of pressure will be so much better next year when that pressure of being outsized is taken away (assuming the fitness of EMac/Brown). Our midfield is growing and we can hopefully work on limiting supply (which was a major downfall yesterday, but an area of massive improvement this year). We'll be fine.

 

[Masto]

We keep it but it shouldn't be the only weapon in our arsenal. If teams know its coming and can study it, prepare for it and counter it then it doesn't count for much. So my criticism is we didn't have a plan B. It clearly wasn't working at quarter time and even moving to a simple 1 vs 1 style at that point would have resulted in a much closer game.

 

[MWPP]

It doesn't work as well away from Subi
But works so well at Subi, and we play so many games here (12) that there's no point scrapping it for homs games . We need a different approach to away games , particularly against high scoring opposition:
-1-3 Against the Hawks- lost 1x home game too
-1-1 Against North- lost the away game
-1-1 Against Dogs- lost the away game
-1-1 Against Adelaide- lost the away game
Freo are the only defensive side we lost to this year
Yes, we beat every team at least once, but our away form against high scoring teams has been shaky (I'll acknowledge that the Port win was the finest of our season)

 

[Biggie]

Will be tweaked

Emac coming back will see a different story

Can't wait.

 

[Eaglemaniac]

It works fine, but it relies on what Simpson calls "dirty ball" coming down field, which is when our mids put pressure on the ball carrier so they don't get easy possessions or time to hit up targets. Yesterday we didn't put any pressure on Hawthorn when they had the ball so they could do as they please. Was very disappointing to watch.
My concern about the web is when E-Mac comes back. He is a terrible kick so that may cause issues with the web as we rely on good disposal coming out of the back line.

 

[EagleEgo]

The Web will probably enable us to get into top 8. However, we need to step up in the Finals and GF in order to win a flag.
I recall a few years back when the Bulldogs were good in their running games; won enough games to qualify for the finals but then went straight out when other teams played high pressure, man on man in the finals. There was an old belief that one must know how to play man on man in GF.
One funny observation as follows in the 2015 final series:
1. We beat the Hawks in the QF with high pressure all over the ground and did not give space and time to the Hawks; denied their kicking. Then,
2. the next week, Adelaide said they are not the Eagles; did not adopt the Eagles winning strategies; went the opposite and got beaten comprehensively. The Crows did not lay any tackle; allowed the opposition Hawks a lot of spaces.
3. In the GF, we did not learn the history and played like what we did in the QF. But instead followed the Adelaide Crows' failed strategies ????!!!!

 

[daddy_4_eyes]

Needs a few tweaks. I think against really strong sides like the hawks we need to apply more direct pressure (as we did in the QF).

The difference y'day wasn't game plan, it was execution. We fumbled, they didn't. We missed set shots, they didn't. They won 50/50 contests. They punished us for every mistake while we gave them time to recover from theirs. We screwed up basic skills (Darling Mark, Shuey kick inside 50, Hill's smothered shot on goal, etc etc etc).

Wasn't our day. Play it again next week and I would go into the game believing we were a good chance of winning.

 

[Mead]

It works fine, but it relies on what Simpson calls "dirty ball" coming down field, which is when our kids put pressure on the ball carrier so they don't get easy possessions or time to hit up targets. Yesterday we didn't put any pressure on Hawthorn when they had the ball so they could do as they please.

Yep that's all there is to it really. No pressure + shitty turnovers up field + an opposition kicking very accurately will destroy any defensive structure.

I think all the business about the 'web' has been overplayed- we encourage defenders to zone off their men to get to contests to help, that's all.

 

[Obeanie1]

It's failed several times this year.

Adelaide, North and Hawks have torn it apart.

For it to work we need to have scoreboard pressure, win the clearances and lock it in the forward line - we did none of those yesterday.

The Web works against poor sides with poor skills. It falls apart against top 4 sides with composure and good kicking skills. At Subi it works much better.

To win a flag you need to beat top four sides.

Hawks ripped us a new one yesterday. Seriously the number 1 type player who will smash the web is Cyril, and he ran around all day without an opponent. That's bad coaching.

On a narrow ground like Subi is can work much better. On the wide MCG there is too much space.

The club needs to hound the AFL to get us at least 3 games at the MCG next year. I've heard Freo will be playing Melbourne in Darwin and so that's one. GF replay should also be at the MCG not Northern Antarctica. Pies should be the third or Tigers.

WE need a plan B as well. Being predictable is a weakness.

 

[Ambrose Burnside]

It will be tweaked. If we play the exact same gameplan in 2016 then I will start questioning Simpson's long-term future. But I rate him as a coach so that won't happen.

I don't think it needs to be tweaked massively. Hell, we could play pretty much the same *except* Mackenzie (tall) and Brown (tall or small, depending on how his mobility has been affected) could play one-on-one all game and we could be onto a winner.

What will be key is our new training facilities with ovals mimicking Burswood and the MCG. This year was a bit like the Hawks of 2008 (minus the premiership ) and we have yet to enter our premiership window (depending on how we manage the transition to the next generation and the retirements of Priddis, Kennedy, LeCras etc. I hope the club has been studying Geelong and Hawthorn's methods in terms of turning over the list, we've been behind the trendsetters for far too long). Remember when we were premiers in 1992 but still managed to get our hands on the number one pick in the draft? Yeah.

We're still young and should be hungry. We have a lot of upside, and we're becoming a desired destination for players wanting a trade. I'm hopeful of a new golden age to rival the 1990s. But we need a standalone WAFL team and to take maximum advantage of our new training facilities, the home ground advantage of Subi and Burswood Stadium, free agency, the ability to trade for future draft picks etc. We need to embrace the modern environment like Hawthorn, not merely mimic them but to improve on what they've accomplished. Teams tend to be reactive (Sydney successful in mid-2000s? St Kilda, Collingwood and Freo take footy to new levels of ugliness). We need to be the trendsetters the way Hawthorn have been. Clarkson is the best because he's constantly re-inventing his teams and Hawthorn are always ready to take advantage of rule changes (like free agency). We've been slow. That has to change along with tweaking the gameplan.

 

[Eaglemaniac]

The Web works against poor sides with poor skills. It falls apart against top 4 sides with composure and good kicking skills. At Subi it works much better.

To win a flag you need to beat top four sides.

Hawks ripped us a new one yesterday. Seriously the number 1 type player who will smash the web is Cyril, and he ran around all day without an opponent. That's bad coaching.

On a narrow ground like Subi is can work much better. On the wide MCG there is too much space.

The club needs to hound the AFL to get us at least 3 games at the MCG next year. I've heard Freo will be playing Melbourne in Darwin and so that's one. GF replay should also be at the MCG not Northern Antarctica. Pies should be the third or Tigers.

WE need a plan B as well. Being predictable is a weakness.

I disagree Obeanie. We executed the web fine at the G against Richmond because we put pressure on thier mids bringing the ball down field. We applied no pressure yesterday at all. I couldn't believe how lazy we were. I think that's what offended me the most about yesterday, we just seemed disinterested with very few guys even bothering to chase. I don't mind if you give it your all and get beaten by skill, but not ony were we beaten by skill, we made very little effort at all. The way to beat highly skilled sides is put massive amounts of pressure on them, as if you give them time to settle before the disposal they will rip you up. That's how we beat them a few weeks ago and that's the exact opposite of what we did yesterday.

 

[WCE Wizard]

It wont be used to the same effect. With Ema and Brown back we will have stronger defensive team and we can use the web with a stronger one on one defenders Emac, Brown, Schofield and then Shep, Hurn, Wellers running the ball out of defense

 

[Prem87]

I disagree Obeanie. We executed the web fine at the G against Richmond because we put pressure on thier mids bringing the ball down field. We applied no pressure yesterday at all. I couldn't believe how lazy we were. I think that's what offended me the most about yesterday, we just seemed disinterested with very few guys even bothering to chase. I don't mind if you give it your all and get beaten by skill, but not ony were we beaten by skill, we made very little effort at all. The way to beat highly skilled sides is put massive amounts of pressure on them, as if you give them time to settle before the disposal they will rip you up. That's how we beat them a few weeks ago and that's the exact opposite of what we did yesterday.

Exactly how I feel. Our effort was pathetic. Reminded me of the Adelaide game where we didn't show up and got smashed.

We didn't turn up in the first half last week either. So it was already a worrying sign last week.

 

[Forget the Stats]

It's hard to blame it on the web when 80% of the problem yesterday was nerves/lack of gf experience and costly errors. The Hawks would beaten any team they played yesterday. Agree that the web was torn apart by the dockers,crows and north by not giving us s chance to setup. Also when we have players zoning off their man they get smashed when it's turned over-see Rioli yesterday. Maybe we will grow into it a bit more next year and make a few tweaks but it clearly works as we played in a gf with a very young list and a rookie coach.