Dustin Martin v Dyson Heppell

[Richo83]

I love Crossy.

But Jones is leaps and bounds better than him. And at his peak? Well Cross won our B&F in 2008, one of our prelim years. And that was in a team with guys like Lake, Murphy, Boyd, Griffen, Johnson, Aker and Cooney (Brownlow year). Not too shabby company.

Currently he is. But over their careers? I doubt it.

Carried Brisbane's midfield for 2 years, similar to what Watson did under Knights

And? Just because their midfield has been poor doesn't mean he's better.

Mumford is arguably the best ruckman in the league when fit. Absolute gun, not at all comparable to Pyke or Maric

Pyke's 2013 year was better than any year Mumford has put together.

Martin has the potential to be better than Cotchin, but Cotchin has delivered better than Martin.

Heppell has the potential to be better than Hodge, but Hodge has delivered better than Martin. Plus, in the past two seasons, Martin has been better.

Jack is still better. Stats aren't the be all and end all. Jack is the 3rd or 4th best mid at Sydney, he'd be the best at Richmond comfortably.

Why? Because their midfield is better, therefore all their midfielders are better?

Nathan Jones is far more than a foot soldier. Saying that show's how much you're underrating him.

He's a very good foot soldier then? If Richmond offered a swap of Martin for Jones, Melbourne would do it in a heartbeat. And it's not just because Martin is younger.

Priddis carries the West Coast midfield. Give him better support and they're genuine contenders.

No he doesn't, other guys like Shuey are arguably better. He's good inside but has no outside game.

Is Myke Pyke better than Paddy Ryder because he's won more flags? Some very stupid logic there.

If Pyke had two Norm Smiths, then yes, I would say so.

 

[Richo83]

I also notice that you've ignored some players like Wingard who had a down season in your "find any player who might be in any way considered better than Martin" crusade. You're so faddish. I also notice that you haven't even attempted to defend your claim that Martin is inferior to guys like Riewoldt, Ward, McVeigh, Goldstein, Schulz, Smith, Gibson, JJ Kennedy or Sloane.

"Well, he's got me there. BUT NOT ON ROCKLIFF!"

 

[eth-dog]

And? Just because their midfield has been poor doesn't mean he's better.



Pyke's 2013 year was better than any year Mumford has put together.



Heppell has the potential to be better than Hodge, but Hodge has delivered better than Martin. Plus, in the past two seasons, Martin has been better.



Why? Because their midfield is better, therefore all their midfielders are better?



He's a very good foot soldier then? If Richmond offered a swap of Martin for Jones, Melbourne would do it in a heartbeat. And it's not just because Martin is younger.



No he doesn't, other guys like Shuey are arguably better. He's good inside but has no outside game.



If Pyke had two Norm Smiths, then yes, I would say so.

Fair point, but he is. Absolute machine and would be a better player for this poll rather than Martin.

What? Mumford's 2011, 2012 and 2014 seasons>>>>>>>>>>>Pyke's 2013 season. Pyke has had one good year, Mumford has been shitloads better.

What? That is some of the worst butchering of the English language I've seen on here, and that's saying something...

Did I list all their midfielders? No. Jack is close to Heppell's level, far better than Martin.

No, they wouldn't trade out the best leader and their club captain with such depravity of leadership options for a bloke who is an inferior player and basically no leadership skills.

And none of their other midfielders have the inside game to match him there. Shuey should be better than Priddis, but isn't.

The NS's are a fair argument but using premiership medals is dumb.

I also notice that you've ignored some players like Wingard who had a down season in your "find any player who might be in any way considered better than Martin" crusade. You're so faddish. I also notice that you haven't even attempted to defend your claim that Martin is inferior to guys like Riewoldt, Ward, McVeigh, Goldstein, Schulz, Smith, Gibson, JJ Kennedy or Sloane.

"Well, he's got me there. BUT NOT ON ROCKLIFF!"

Because I was tired, it was late and couldn't be ****ed arguing with all of those.

Wingard's an interesting one. I really rate him as a future gun but he's around the same level as Martin IMO.

Jack, as much as he's a crybaby and junk time specialist is better than Martin even though I hate him.

Ward is a gun, has been very underrated on BigFooty. Great balance between inside and outside games.

Do you watch Sydney at all? McVeigh is much better than Martin. Probably the most versatile midfielder in the AFL, except maybe Goddard.

Goldstein is at a similar level to Mumford as a ruckman.

Schulz is the most accurate key forward in the AFL, and just finished equal 2nd in the Coleman. Gun.

Smith's running power is only beaten by Mark Blicavs. Add that to his skills, pace, and height? Damn, he's good.

Gibson was another debatable one. I'm not a particular fan of him but his versatility made me inch his way.

JJ Kennedy has it all as a forward. Good hands, quick on the lead, strong contested Mark and excellent set shot.

It's funny. Sloane was one of the ones listed earlier as being better than Heppell but he's not better than Martin? Hmm. Nope.

I also noticed you didn't bold Heppell on that list. Oh and I forgot about a few other players, namely: Goddard, Birchall and Swan (debatable)

 

[Donkey Chop]

I still can't get over Heppell is better then Hodge.

A lot of lols were had

 

[eth-dog]

I still can't get over Heppell is better then Hodge.

A lot of lols were had

I can't get over how underrated Heppell is on here.

 

[Happy Mastenator]

I can't get over how underrated Heppell is on here.

Maybe you're overrating him a tad...

 

[Tiger Toffee]

I can't get over how underrated Heppell is on here.

Because he doesn't hurt teams, that's why, no use getting the ball 600+ times in a season if most of your kicks are dinky 20m passes.

 

[eth-dog]

Maybe you're overrating him a tad...

He won the ABC Footballer of the Year for a reason

Because he doesn't hurt teams, that's why, no use getting the ball 600+ times in a season if most of your kicks are dinky 20m passes.

Tell that to the Western Bulldogs, Geelong and West Coast. This post is stupid on so many levels.

 

[juss]

I can't get over how underrated Heppell is on here.

Would you say you're shocked to be sitting here?

 

[Tiger Toffee]

He won the ABC Footballer of the Year for a reason

Tell that to the Western Bulldogs, Geelong and West Coast. This post is stupid on so many levels.

Don't know what WB game your talking about because he wasn't that flash in either but the other two I am justified, a total of 79 touches but only a total of 7 inside 50's and 5 rebound 50's, that's terrible which means a lot of dinky short passes in between the arcs. Oh and only 1 behind as well, getting lots of possies isn't the be all and end all dude, it's how damaging you are with ball in hand.

 

[MightyDons4]

Dustin Martin is the type of player you bring into your club, Dyson Heppell is the type of player you build your club around.

 

[MightyDons4]

Also what's the point of comparing an outside impact player to an inside creative player? Better polls would be Stevie J vs Dusty and Heppell vs Mundy. There's a reason why Heppell always attracts a tag and Dusty never does...

 

[juss]

Also what's the point of comparing an outside impact player to an inside creative player? Better polls would be Stevie J vs Dusty and Heppell vs Mundy. There's a reason why Heppell always attracts a tag and Dusty never does...

It's because of the roles they play. Tagging Martin is the most pointless exercise an opposition coach could do. You tag him and Dimma throws him inside 50 one out, and Martin wins that battle. At least with Cotchin, Deledio and Ellis you can limit their influence more because they're strength is around the ground. Martin's greatest strength is his work within 70m of goal. Heppell on the other hand is worth tagging, because if you can shut him down in the midfield he does not have the ability to go forward and hurt you. Only 20 goals from 84 games is a very poor return for a midfielder.

 

[MightyDons4]

It's because of the roles they play. Tagging Martin is the most pointless exercise an opposition coach could do. You tag him and Dimma throws him inside 50 one out, and Martin wins that battle. At least with Cotchin, Deledio and Ellis you can limit their influence more because they're strength is around the ground. Martin's greatest strength is his work within 70m of goal. Heppell on the other hand is worth tagging, because if you can shut him down in the midfield he does not have the ability to go forward and hurt you. Only 20 goals from 84 games is a very poor return for a midfielder.

I guess you're right, tag Cotchin and it forces him into doing cheap one-twos and have no influence on the game.

Yes because he has always played in the midfield >_>

 

[eth-dog]

Would you say you're shocked to be sitting here?

Heh, best use of that line I've seen in a while.

Don't know what WB game your talking about because he wasn't that flash in either but the other two I am justified, a total of 79 touches but only a total of 7 inside 50's and 5 rebound 50's, that's terrible which means a lot of dinky short passes in between the arcs. Oh and only 1 behind as well, getting lots of possies isn't the be all and end all dude, it's how damaging you are with ball in hand.

The Dogs tagger went off in the last quarter with an injury (timtamWB would know more) and Heppell ran riot in the last quarter. And you seriously think Heppell wasn't damaging in those games? Absolutely destroyed both sides. He'll probably get BOG against you in the Dreamtime game and you'll continue to deny that he doesn't damage the opposition.

 

[MightyDons4]

Heh, best use of that line I've seen in a while.

The Dogs tagger went off in the last quarter with an injury (timtamWB would know more) and Heppell ran riot in the last quarter. And you seriously think Heppell wasn't damaging in those games? Absolutely destroyed both sides. He'll probably get BOG against you in the Dreamtime game and you'll continue to deny that he doesn't damage the opposition.

Mitch Wallis

 

[timtamWB]

Heh, best use of that line I've seen in a while.

The Dogs tagger went off in the last quarter with an injury (timtamWB would know more) and Heppell ran riot in the last quarter. And you seriously think Heppell wasn't damaging in those games? Absolutely destroyed both sides. He'll probably get BOG against you in the Dreamtime game and you'll continue to deny that he doesn't damage the opposition.

Yep. Wallis was tagging Heppell and we were in with a shot at 3/4 time. Then Wallis went off injured and Heppell got free, and he absolutely destroyed us. He was the reason that the Bombers beat is that game.

Having said that, this pointless back and forth is a bit weird. Both are guns, but both are also different kind of players. And each club wouldn't trade the one they have for the other.

 

[Richo83]

Fair point, but he is. Absolute machine and would be a better player for this poll rather than Martin.

And yet Martin leads the poll. Heppell is better than Rockliff, there is no doubt.

What? Mumford's 2011, 2012 and 2014 seasons>>>>>>>>>>>Pyke's 2013 season. Pyke has had one good year, Mumford has been shitloads better.

He's been good, no doubt. But he doesn't offer much around the ground besides tap work. It's apples and oranges, picking Mumford over Martin merely means you value ruck work over forward production. It's like saying Maric has been a great ruckman for the past three years, ergo, he's better than Martin. Well, no, he isn't.

What? That is some of the worst butchering of the English language I've seen on here, and that's saying something...

I quoted you but just changed the names of the players, if that's poor English, blame yourself.

Did I list all their midfielders? No. Jack is close to Heppell's level, far better than Martin.

For two players who don't get tagged much, their stats are fairly similar.

No, they wouldn't trade out the best leader and their club captain with such depravity of leadership options for a bloke who is an inferior player and basically no leadership skills.

Give the captaincy to Vince or Cross. Pretty much no-one on bigfooty, or any of the media outlets would agree that Jones is a better player than Martin.

And none of their other midfielders have the inside game to match him there. Shuey should be better than Priddis, but isn't.

They do, since they play a lot of them inside there. Priddis plays inside so much because he can't be played anywhere else. If he had outside ability, he'd have less inside stats.

The NS's are a fair argument but using premiership medals is dumb.

Yet Hodge is a main reason why Hawthorn won those three premiership medals.

Because I was tired, it was late and couldn't be stuffed arguing with all of those.

I'm not convinced.

Wingard's an interesting one. I really rate him as a future gun but he's around the same level as Martin IMO.

Are you seriously saying that Wingard is not in the top 50 players in the league? Because if he's around the same level as Martin, that's where he stands. His 2013 was a better season than any of the seasons of the players you've listed.

Jack, as much as he's a crybaby and junk time specialist is better than Martin even though I hate him.

Junk time specialist (two colemans by the way) yet better than Martin? Please.

Ward is a gun, has been very underrated on BigFooty. Great balance between inside and outside games.

Ward's outside output wasn't great this season. I doubt he's that impressive on the outside to be honest.

Do you watch Sydney at all? McVeigh is much better than Martin. Probably the most versatile midfielder in the AFL, except maybe Goddard.

McVeigh has been good in the past. But he doesn't get much inside ball and wasn't at his elite best in 2014. He's also six years older than Martin.

Goldstein is at a similar level to Mumford as a ruckman.

Why are good ruckmen automatically better than good midfielders/forward?

Schulz is the most accurate key forward in the AFL, and just finished equal 2nd in the Coleman. Gun.

Riewoldt has won two coleman medals yet is a junk time specialist, Schulz kicks a lot of his goals after the side has done the damage.

Smith's running power is only beaten by Mark Blicavs. Add that to his skills, pace, and height? Damn, he's good.

He has running power, must be better! Martin has pace, skills and strength. He also doesn't rely mostly on his other teammates to get the ball. Stick Smith in a lower side and he'd struggle.

Gibson was another debatable one. I'm not a particular fan of him but his versatility made me inch his way.

Doesn't play on the main forwards, and mainly relies upon having Lake to take the big guys.

JJ Kennedy has it all as a forward. Good hands, quick on the lead, strong contested Mark and excellent set shot.

Struggles against the top sides.

It's funny. Sloane was one of the ones listed earlier as being better than Heppell but he's not better than Martin? Hmm. Nope.

Did I say that Sloane was better than Heppell? No, someone else did, so that's irrelevant. Both Heppell and Martin are more damaging than Sloane.

I also noticed you didn't bold Heppell on that list. Oh and I forgot about a few other players, namely: Goddard, Birchall and Swan (debatable)

Because Heppell is debatable. You also included Birchall so yeah you didn't forget him. Martin and Goddard's years were fairly similar. Difference is, Martin is much younger.

 

[Richo83]

Yep. Wallis was tagging Heppell and we were in with a shot at 3/4 time. Then Wallis went off injured and Heppell got free, and he absolutely destroyed us. He was the reason that the Bombers beat is that game.

Having said that, this pointless back and forth is a bit weird. Both are guns, but both are also different kind of players. And each club wouldn't trade the one they have for the other.

It wouldn't be so bad if Essendon fans didn't make stupid comments like: "Martin isn't in the top 50 players in the league" then argue that he isn't because Mitch Duncan is better.

 

[Richo83]

He won the ABC Footballer of the Year for a reason

That reason being Ablett didn't play a full season. A few of the 2014 require an asterisk beside them.

 

[eth-dog]

The problem lies with Essendon fans. Richmond fans acknowledge that Heppell is in the top 20-30 players in the league. Yet we have an Essendon fan telling us that Martin isn't in the top 50 players in the league. Tried to tell me that Duncan was a better player. Jesus Christ.

The problem lies with Richmond supporters. They severely overrate Martin. If Essendon weren't in the top 3 hated teams on BigFooty Heppell would be leading the poll by double the margin Martin is.

 

[Richo83]

Also what's the point of comparing an outside impact player to an inside creative player? Better polls would be Stevie J vs Dusty and Heppell vs Mundy. There's a reason why Heppell always attracts a tag and Dusty never does...

Because taggers know how to blanket midfielders, they struggle to blanket forwards given that they often have average defensive skills.

 

[Richo83]

The problem lies with Richmond supporters. They severely overrate Martin.

Every media outlet in the league and every award had Martin in the top 50 in 2014.

If Essendon weren't in the top 3 hated teams on BigFooty Heppell would be leading the poll by double the margin Martin is.

I see conspiracy Sam running from the bushes!

 

[eth-dog]

Every media outlet in the league and every award had Martin in the top 50 in 2014.



I see conspiracy Sam running from the bushes!

It's not paranoia if they really are after you.

Also, every media outlet and award had Heppell in the top 20 in the AFL this year. Martin would be lucky to have half the resume Heppell currently has by the end of his career.

 

[Richo83]

It's not paranoia if they really are after you.

That's what all the paranoid say.

Also, every media outlet and award had Heppell in the top 20 in the AFL this year.

And? I'm not really bothered by the idea that Heppell is in the top 20.

Martin would be lucky to have half the resume Heppell currently has by the end of his career.

An ABC award for best player in a year where the best player in the league went down with injury AND an AA gig on the wing, much accolades!