East/West Link

[phantom13]

So my best mates missus is fairly politcally active and was at the recent Melbourne protests over East/West link, without getting into the violence and protests etc i wanted to see what people thought of east/west link as an idea (that may get off the ground).

I'll be totally upfront and say i really don't know enough about it to honestly criticize or endorse it, but i will say this, the standard line from most people who i have spoken to is that the money should be spent on public transport, which to me seems like a stupid argument for a whole bunch of reasons.

Anyway are you for or against it?

P.S. I didn't put this in the politics board because that s**t is way too highbrow for my liking, i am a man of the people.

 

[Stratton_Gun]

Roads are what taxes are for

 

[DivideandMultiply]

It's a rubbish white elephant that serves no great purpose.

 

[phantom13]

It's a rubbish white elephant that serves no great purpose.

What makes you say that, in all seriousness, not being provocative.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

What makes you say that, in all seriousness, not being provocative.

The placement of the entry/exit points won't relieve congestion in the city, plus it doesn't do anything to service the main body of traffic leaving the city heading East, or North, or traversing it on that N-E vector.

It is very expensive though and disruptive.

Mainly it is a gift to the road lobbies and one which the state cannot really afford. In contrast the Eastern suburbs, heck all of Melbourne, are screaming out for public transport infrastructural upgrades and an expansion of capacity.

Heck even the cities major station is a complete dump, along with the strip of rail between Richmond and the city being a major choke point and often a source of delay. These aren't the frills, but core problems which need to be sorted ASAP.

 

[phantom13]

The placement of the entry/exit points won't relieve congestion in the city, plus it doesn't do anything to service the main body of traffic leaving the city heading East, or North, or traversing it on that N-E vector.

It is very expensive though and disruptive.

Mainly it is a gift to the road lobbies and one which the state cannot really afford. In contrast the Eastern suburbs, heck all of Melbourne, are screaming out for public transport infrastructural upgrades and an expansion of capacity.

Heck even the cities major station is a complete dump, along with the strip of rail between Richmond and the city being a major choke point and often a source of delay. These aren't the frills, but core problems which need to be sorted ASAP.

Fair enough. The only issue i see with the argument about rail is that peoples aversion to PT isn't based on outdated infrastructure (although it is outdated) its a cultural thing, Aussies like to drive and even if the PT was better (and more affordable) it wouldn't get used more for a long time.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

Fair enough. The only issue i see with the argument about rail is that peoples aversion to PT isn't based on outdated infrastructure (although it is outdated) its a cultural thing, Aussies like to drive and even if the PT was better (and more affordable) it wouldn't get used more for a long time.

I'm not sure there is an aversion.

Current services struggle to meet demand.

 

[phantom13]

I'm not sure there is an aversion.

Current services struggle to meet demand.

I wholeheartedly agree, but i also think there is an aversion. It probably stems from years of poor services, outdated and unreliable trains and recent ridiculous cost of travel, whatever it is alot of people in Melbourne don't like catching trains and trams.

 

[Drizt]

Use public transport everyday and I still see the east west link as a great idea. Hippies and pseudo intellectuals will obviously disagree

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[DivideandMultiply]

Use public transport everyday and I still see the east west link as a great idea. Hippies and pseudo intellectuals will obviously disagree

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

Or people who actually know what the tunnel involves.

It is really, really expensive and will cause major disruptions, however will not actually ameliorate congestion issues. This has nothing to do with hippies or pseudo intellectuals, it has to do with the current government wasting massive amounts of taxpayer money, all because the road lobby in Vic is too powerful and willing to throw cash at the coalition.

 

[BotsMaster]

Use public transport everyday and I still see the east west link as a great idea. Hippies and pseudo intellectuals will obviously disagree

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

I agree with this person.

 

[checkraiseulite]

Or people who actually know what the tunnel involves.

It is really, really expensive and will cause major disruptions, however will not actually ameliorate congestion issues. This has nothing to do with hippies or pseudo intellectuals, it has to do with the current government wasting massive amounts of taxpayer money, all because the road lobby in Vic is too powerful and willing to throw cash at the coalition.

so why if it's so expensive and will not ameliorate congestion issues is the road lobby in Vic willing to throw cash at the coalition?

 

[DivideandMultiply]

I agree with this person.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-12-09/covert-tunnel-report-shows-rise-in-traffic-congestion/5143506

A report prepared for a Victorian Government body has found the East West Link tunnel will lead to an increase in traffic on some of Melbourne's key roads.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-12-09/covert-tunnel-report-shows-rise-in-traffic-congestion/5143506


http://news.drive.com.au/drive/road...reveals-traffic-explosion-20131208-2yzgz.html

Melbourne University planning expert Dr Alan March said it was increasingly apparent that the money being spent on the road would be better invested in public transport, health or education. He warned that international evidence suggested such projects tended to add to traffic problems over the longer term.
''All of the evidence all over the world suggests these sorts of projects are unlikely to fix things in the longer term,'' Dr March said. ''It is as if the government is determined to press ahead with a truck-based transport system at all costs irrespective of the impact on the rest of the city in the longer term.''
The leaked traffic predictions follow a report by the Victorian Auditor-General this year that suggested the tunnel was not the best way to deal with congestion. It warned not enough thought had gone into the question of whether the project might add to congestion by ''inducing extra road use''.

http://news.drive.com.au/drive/road...reveals-traffic-explosion-20131208-2yzgz.html

 

[DivideandMultiply]

so why if it's so expensive and will not ameliorate congestion issues is the road lobby in Vic willing to throw cash at the coalition?

Because they don't represent the public interest, but vested interest who benefit from road construction and the revenue generated from tollways and tunnels.

The same reason we will have the East/West link white elephant, is the same reason we don't have a train line to the airport.

 

[checkraiseulite]

But if it won't ease congestion, and will in fact increase congestion people won't use it?

 

[DivideandMultiply]

But if it won't ease congestion, and will in fact increase congestion people won't use it?

It will provide a quicker route, from point a to point b, over the distance the tunnel. People heading in that direction are largely guaranteed to use the tunnel.

However, this will be offset by an increase in congestion in other areas. Likewise, it does not address the major choke points along the East/West axis, doesn't involve Melbourne's major area of congestion which is traffic either along a N/E axis traversing the CBD, or exiting the CBD to the North or East.

It is a really dumb idea. I am not opposed to another tunnel at all, the placement of this is just terrible and it really won't do the job it was promised to do.

 

[phantom13]

It will provide a quicker route, from point a to point b, over the distance the tunnel. People heading in that direction are largely guaranteed to use the tunnel.

However, this will be offset by an increase in congestion in other areas. Likewise, it does not address the major choke points along the East/West axis, doesn't involve Melbourne's major area of congestion which is traffic either along a N/E axis traversing the CBD, or exiting the CBD to the North or East.

It is a really dumb idea. I am not opposed to another tunnel at all, the placement of this is just terrible and it really won't do the job it was promised to do.

Where should we put another tunnel? Given that we are pretty well f**ked trying to put more roads in to the east.

 

[Bosun]

Because they don't represent the public interest, but vested interest who benefit from road construction and the revenue generated from tollways and tunnels.

The same reason we will have the East/West link white elephant, is the same reason we don't have a train line to the airport.

Australian Pacific Airports (or whatever the consortium's name is) are a very big factor into why we dont have a train line to the airport.

 

[Slax]

Fair enough. The only issue i see with the argument about rail is that peoples aversion to PT isn't based on outdated infrastructure (although it is outdated) its a cultural thing, Aussies like to drive and even if the PT was better (and more affordable) it wouldn't get used more for a long time.

Aussies like to drive because our PT is so crap.

I lived for years in inner Melbourne where you were serviced well by trains and trams, here the vast majority would use PT to communute to work because it was effective and convenient. But as you move out the quality of the service gets worse. Services don't link up and are not as readily accessible. You can live in a built up area where you have a 20 minute walk to the nearest PT service, in the inner suburbs you'd be doing well to find a property with more than a 10 minute walk to a PT service and that would require a fair bit of looking. This combined with overcrowding, infrequent and unreliable services and services that don't link up causes people to drive. If we sorted out the PT system, invested in improving services, ensuring that they link up better with rail services you would find that things would improve.

If you reduce road traffic through having better and more effective PT, you automatically do away with the need for the E-W link being proposed through the reduce traffic congestion.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

All for it if it works.

 

[Smoooothy]

having come from a city that is only just waking up to the fact it needs to fix the roads up (aka adelaide), i'm all for freeway/tollway expansion.

i don't generally use the freeways much except when i go into the city, but it's nice to know there will be an easier option to get to the eastern freeway

 

[phantom13]

Aussies like to drive because our PT is so crap.

I lived for years in inner Melbourne where you were serviced well by trains and trams, here the vast majority would use PT to communute to work because it was effective and convenient. But as you move out the quality of the service gets worse. Services don't link up and are not as readily accessible. You can live in a built up area where you have a 20 minute walk to the nearest PT service, in the inner suburbs you'd be doing well to find a property with more than a 10 minute walk to a PT service and that would require a fair bit of looking. This combined with overcrowding, infrequent and unreliable services and services that don't link up causes people to drive. If we sorted out the PT system, invested in improving services, ensuring that they link up better with rail services you would find that things would improve.

If you reduce road traffic through having better and more effective PT, you automatically do away with the need for the E-W link being proposed through the reduce traffic congestion.

Wholeheartedly agree but i think the disdain for PT is now ingrained to the point of it being a cultural thing. Essentially even if we fixed up the PT (especially for the eastern suburbs where i grew up) it wouldn't be a snap change overnight for people to use it i think it would be a generational change that would take years for people to try it out and decide its not too bad. I say this as someone who is from there people in the east like there 5 bedroom houses, huge blocks and driving their cars.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

having come from a city that is only just waking up to the fact it needs to fix the roads up (aka adelaide), i'm all for freeway/tollway expansion.

i don't generally use the freeways much except when i go into the city, but it's nice to know there will be an easier option to get to the eastern freeway

Which will now be gridlocked.

 

[Slax]

Wholeheartedly agree but i think the disdain for PT is now ingrained to the point of it being a cultural thing. Essentially even if we fixed up the PT (especially for the eastern suburbs where i grew up) it wouldn't be a snap change overnight for people to use it i think it would be a generational change that would take years for people to try it out and decide its not too bad. I say this as someone who is from there people in the east like there 5 bedroom houses, huge blocks and driving their cars.

Agree, but I've never understood the need to let your children have a 4mx3m bedroom with a walk in robe and a 3rd bathroom. If they'd made the rooms slightly smaller but still roomy they'd find that they'd actually have a backyard with some grass.

 

[tandino]

The McMansion gets a bad rap.

I would say the vast majority of new dwellings in new developments in the eastern suburbs are three bed, two bath plus study, with the major impact on the size of a backyard being the cost of land as opposed to the size of house.