Europa League 15/16

[jd2010]

Erm no it's not, how is it a weaker comp than when the 2nd best side in wherever Ukraine or Bulgaria or Russia make the knockout stages of the CL now? Or the 4th best team of their country?

As I've said, you gotta win your own league then win the European Cup the same following year. There is no way it was easier to win it back then compare to now

If Italy or Spain are the strongest leagues in that time them only having 1 team in the cup makes it a weaker cup than now. Having say 36 league winners only imo is weaker than having the 4 best English & Spanish etc. now

 

[Cooldude]

If Italy or Spain are the strongest leagues in that time them only having 1 team in the cup makes it a weaker cup than now. Having say 36 league winners only imo is weaker than having the 4 best English & Spanish etc. now

I disagree with that, that means you have to beat those same strongest Italian or Spanish teams to go all the way, it doesn't make it weaker in any way. At best it's no better than how it is now

And as you've ignored the point I've made a few times, the fact that you gotta win your own league first before having a chance to even have a crack at it makes it all the more difficult to win it in the first place

 

[jd2010]

Look at the 1980/81 season. The European Cup had no Barca, Juve or Inter and you played 6 ties against the mighty Finnish, Bulgarian & Scottish league winners and then finally Bayern in the final.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

But it's true, only champions of their respective leagues played in the comp back then, and it was knockout straight off

None of this group stage whatevers with 3rd 4th best teams of their countries

You realise that the champions from the previous season played in the European Cup, not the current best team in every league....What's wrong with group stage? You play more games now than the 9 games it used to be. It can be easily argued that it is more difficult to win it now, especially if you plan on doing well in the league.

 

[jd2010]

You realise that the champions from the previous season played in the European Cup, not the current best team in every league....What's wrong with group stage? You play more games now than the 9 games it used to be. It can be easily argued that it is more difficult to win it now, especially if you plan on doing well in the league.

Beating Oulun Palloseura over 2 legs > coming 1st or 2nd in a group stage
#scouselogic

 

[Cooldude]

Look at the 1980/81 season. The European Cup had no Barca, Juve or Inter and you played 6 ties against the mighty Finnish, Bulgarian & Scottish league winners and then finally Bayern in the final.

The Fergie Aberdeen back then was actually pretty damn strong (so was Scottish football), so that's not true whatsoever. Oh and we had to beat Madrid and Bayern, the Spanish and German champions to win it. So not sure what you're on about there

 

[jd2010]

The Fergie Aberdeen back then was actually pretty damn strong (so was Scottish football), so that's not true whatsoever. Oh and we had to beat Madrid and Bayern, the Spanish and German champions to win it. So not sure what you're on about there

You play less games back and the talent pool of the comp is weaker than now. You get to the last 16 just by beating the Finnish league champions back then

 

[Bojan KantKick]

I disagree with that, that means you have to beat those same strongest Italian or Spanish teams to go all the way, it doesn't make it weaker in any way. At best it's no better than how it is now

And as you've ignored the point I've made a few times, the fact that you gotta win your own league first before having a chance to even have a crack at it makes it all the more difficult to win it in the first place

United were the best team in Europe in 1999. They were the second best team in England in 1998. Thus, the 1999 UCL would have been weaker had they not been allowed to enter.

Chelsea in 2012 were the best team in Europe. Under a Champions only scenario, they would be ineligible in the following season.....

 

[Cooldude]

You realise that the champions from the previous season played in the European Cup, not the current best team in every league....What's wrong with group stage? You play more games now than the 9 games it used to be. It can be easily argued that it is more difficult to win it now, especially if you plan on doing well in the league.

Wait that's exactly what I've been saying, you gotta win your own league to even qualify for it. Whether it's the previous season doesn't matter, would it matter to you if Barca wins the CL this season and not win the league? Not sure what your point actually was

Group stage games apart from one or two groups can be quite tedious tbh

People's been whinging about people like us or Chelsea fluking the CL or whatever in spite of us being s**t at the time and stuff, so I'm not sure how suddenly people think it's more difficult to win a comp where you only need to be 3rd or 4th best team to qualify for it than one where you have to win your own league first to do it

But yet again, just snobbery towards Liverpool of course, whatever I say would just be classified as #scouselogic

 

[jd2010]

What is an easier way into the final 16 of a comp? Finishing top 2 in the current format or beating superpower league winners like Oulun Palloseura, the mighty Valletta FC & Linfield of Northern Ireland?

 

[Cooldude]

You play less games back and the talent pool of the comp is weaker than now. You get to the last 16 just by beating the Finnish league champions back then

Yet again I disagree with you about the "talent pool". We beat 3 very very good sides back in 80/81 to win the whole thing, two of them are the Spanish and Germany champions or whatever you were talking about

I'm sure if we play in the group stages against Ludogorets Basel and Anderlect then beat the same sides we beat in the knockouts to win it you'd make it sound like it's more difficult #jdlogic

At best it's no different to how it is right now, at worst it's actually harder back then coz of the points I've listed repeatedly that people conveniently ignore

 

[jd2010]

Yet again I disagree with you about the "talent pool". We beat 3 very very good sides back in 80/81 to win the whole thing, two of them are the Spanish and Germany champions or whatever you were talking about

I'm sure if we play in the group stages against Ludogorets Basel and Anderlect then beat the same sides we beat in the knockouts to win it you'd make it sound like it's more difficult #jdlogic

At best it's no different to how it is right now, at worst it's actually harder back then coz of the points I've listed repeatedly that people conveniently ignore

Look at the 32 sides in that comp and look at the 32 in this seasons. Take off the red glasses. The difference in class is catastrophic!

Linfield of Northern Ireland & no Barca, Juve or AC Milan

 

[Bojan KantKick]

Wait that's exactly what I've been saying, you gotta win your own league to even qualify for it. Whether it's the previous season doesn't matter, would it matter to you if Barca wins the CL this season and not win the league? Not sure what your point actually was

Group stage games apart from one or two groups can be quite tedious tbh

People's been whinging about people like us or Chelsea fluking the CL or whatever in spite of us being s**t at the time and stuff, so I'm not sure how suddenly people think it's more difficult to win a comp where you only need to be 3rd or 4th best team to qualify for it than one where you have to win your own league first to do it

But yet again, just snobbery towards Liverpool of course, whatever I say would just be classified as #scouselogic

i'm not bagging Pool or scouse logic, i know your not jod so we can debate this. I just disagree with your point .....using your examples above, do you think the comp would be stronger in 2013 when Chelsea didn't win the league (previously) and in the season after your hypothetical of Barca not winning the league despite both teams being the previous years UCL champions?

Just cos i disagree with your point doesn't denigrate 4 of your European Cups....the comps were different for better or worse & probs a bit of both.

 

[Cooldude]

United were the best team in Europe in 1999. They were the second best team in England in 1998. Thus, the 1999 UCL would have been weaker had they not been allowed to enter.

Chelsea in 2012 were the best team in Europe. Under a Champions only scenario, they would be ineligible in the following season.....

Yeah so the 1999 CL win was hollow Bayern choked that one anyway, you guys got lucky. Now that is a scouse thing to say

Actually everything you've listed so far proves my point about how it's more difficult to win it because you must win your own league first. You may disagree with the logistics of it but it is an absolutely valid point why it doesn't make it easier to win it back then compare to now. At best it's the same

 

[jd2010]

Just cos i disagree with your point doesn't denigrate 4 of your European Cups....the comps were different for better or worse & probs a bit of both.

Exactly. They did great winning those still. Just a weaker format than the current one. Still beat good sides eventually to do it!

 

[Bojan KantKick]

Yeah so the 1999 CL win was hollow Bayern choked that one anyway, you guys got lucky. Now that is a scouse thing to say

Actually everything you've listed so far proves my point about how it's more difficult to win it because you must win your own league first. You may disagree with the logistics of it but it is an absolutely valid point why it doesn't make it easier to win it back then compare to now. At best it's the same

not helping with the scouse logic mate

not sure how the best team in Europe being ineligible from competing in the UCL proves your point......

 

[Cooldude]

Look at the 32 sides in that comp and look at the 32 in this seasons. Take off the red glasses. The difference in class is catastrophic!

Linfield of Northern Ireland & no Barca, Juve or AC Milan

Now now jd you're normally a reasonable and well mannered guy so we can keep the cheap shots outta this and just debate this normally

Your own interpretation of the "difference in class" is your opinion, but loads of the other "lesser countries" in your eyes regularly bump out the Spanish or English or German or Italian (the bigger sides in your eyes) in the European Cup back then, and some of them had great sides.

Btw Juve played quite a few times in the European Cups around those dates and they got beat a few times by sides whose names I can't even spell out. So not sure why you're championing the "big name clubs" while they were actually getting done by sides you perceive to be "less quality"

And yet again you're ignoring how we actually beat the reigning German Spanish and Scottish champions to win the whole thing back in 80/81 which you cited, yet you'll still just harp on about it being a poorer comp

At best it's no harder to win it now than to win it then

 

[Cooldude]

not helping with the scouse logic mate

not sure how the best team in Europe being ineligible from competing in the UCL proves your point......

Well actually people kept saying Chelsea fluked it hard and rear-guarded their way to that 2012 win (like we did back in 2005, note that this is not my opinion). So if you think winning the CL means they're actually the best team in Europe then yeeeeah okay, even though they were actually quite ordinary as a side for the whole season from what I saw

Plus they wouldn't have qualified for it to even have a chance to fluke it in the first place with the old format Neither would we back in 05, we literally limped our way to 4th the previous season

Just to clarify: when it comes to liverpool's past trophies, if they say our leagues back then were easier to win then I'd agree with them. I just don't agree with the European Cups

 

[Bojan KantKick]

Well actually people kept saying Chelsea fluked it hard and rear-guarded their way to that 2012 win (like we did back in 2005, note that this is not my opinion). So if you think winning the CL means they're actually the best team in Europe then yeeeeah okay, even though they were actually quite ordinary as a side for the whole season from what I saw

Plus they wouldn't have qualified for it to even have a chance to fluke it in the first place with the old format Neither would we back in 05, we literally limped our way to 4th the previous season

Just to clarify: when it comes to liverpool's past trophies, if they say our leagues back then were easier to win then I'd agree with them. I just don't agree with the European Cups

i see we are aren't going to agree on this so not much point continuing....imo, if you win the UCL, you are the best team in Europe, no matter how big a bradbury it is....

 

[Cooldude]

i see we are aren't going to agree on this so not much point continuing....imo, if you win the UCL, you are the best team in Europe, no matter how big a bradbury it is....

I think if you win the CL, it makes you the best team of that competition that year but not in Europe, that's my opinion

Another point about the EC was that Eastern European sides were far better back then, they were actually very good sides and big teams regularly got done by them. And the away trips were far more brutal

My final opinion is that I don't think there's a clear answer to whether it's harder to win it now or then, both are bloody difficult to do tbh

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Also without Eriksen we miss having a player that can unlock sides

How much longer until we have him back?

 

[jd2010]

Now now jd you're normally a reasonable and well mannered guy so we can keep the cheap shots outta this and just debate this normally

Your own interpretation of the "difference in class" is your opinion, but loads of the other "lesser countries" in your eyes regularly bump out the Spanish or English or German or Italian (the bigger sides in your eyes) in the European Cup back then, and some of them had great sides.

Btw Juve played quite a few times in the European Cups around those dates and they got beat a few times by sides whose names I can't even spell out. So not sure why you're championing the "big name clubs" while they were actually getting done by sides you perceive to be "less quality"

And yet again you're ignoring how we actually beat the reigning German Spanish and Scottish champions to win the whole thing back in 80/81 which you cited, yet you'll still just harp on about it being a poorer comp

At best it's no harder to win it now than to win it then

Like I said you did eventually have to beat good teams. But it's a fact you got to the round of 16 just by beating the Finnish league champions.

Lets look at this seasons competition.
Take out: Real, Atletico, Man City, Arsenal, Porto, Man U, Valencia, Leverkusen, Sevilla, Lyon & Roma.
Replaced by: Skënderbeu Korçë, Qarabag, Ludgorets, SJK, Videoton, Crusaders of Northern Ireland, Dundalk, Lech Poznan, Hibernians of Malta & Dila Gori

What is the stronger list?

Do I like the old knockout format better than a group stage? Yes I do (I think the EL should be that format). But surely you can see that it is easier to get to the final 16 (winning 1 easy 2-legged tie) or final 8 is easier (just 4 matches played) in that format than now going through a 6 game group-stage

 

[Cooldude]

Like I said you did eventually have to beat good teams. But it's a fact you got to the round of 16 just by beating the Finnish league champions.

AND winning our own domestic league to be in it in the first place

Lets look at this seasons competition.
Take out: Real, Atletico, Man City, Arsenal, Porto, Man U, Valencia, Leverkusen, Sevilla, Lyon & Roma.
Replaced by: Skënderbeu Korçë, Qarabag, Ludgorets, SJK, Videoton, Crusaders of Northern Ireland, Dundalk, Lech Poznan, Hibernians of Malta & Dila Gori

Do I like the old knockout format better? Yes I do. But surely you can see that it is easier to get to the final 16 (winning 1 easy 2-legged tie) or final 8 is easier (just 4 matches played) in that format than now going through a 6 game group-stage

But your outlook of the strengths of the teams is relative to your own understanding and perception of it now, the comparative strength of the clubs in respective countries and leagues were far different then, even if you mightn't be familiar with their names. Like what I've said about Eastern European teams back then

Knockout straight off makes it far more of a tight rope to walk than if you muck up in one group stage game and have a fair few to recover from, since the next one's a clean slate game. One ****ed up away tie in the knockout format and that could be you done due to the away goals or aggregate format.

Plus the CL had two group stages for a little while until when? I think 02-03? Similar to the cricket world cup and the super 8. It was designed to make sure the top teams survive to the knockouts. There was a huge guff between the sides in the latter group stages to make the element of surprise/ambush even less likely and ensure less upsets in the early stages. They changed it the year after but that format was actually designed to favour the big shots and make it easier for them

 

[Bojan KantKick]

I think if you win the CL, it makes you the best team of that competition that year but not in Europe, that's my opinion

Another point about the EC was that Eastern European sides were far better back then, they were actually very good sides and big teams regularly got done by them. And the away trips were far more brutal

My final opinion is that I don't think there's a clear answer to whether it's harder to win it now or then, both are bloody difficult to do tbh

 

[Cooldude]

You guys kept saying we won all of them when it was easy back then, so no that's not all I had to say!