Expansion has gone too far

[Bunk Moreland]

I think we've scraped the barrel clean and there ain't nothing left.

In purely relative terms, I don't know that the game at the elite level (in terms of basic skills) has been in worse shape for some time, and the gap between top and bottom is enormous.

Games like last night are nothing more than appalling. I think I started to notice last year there were more of them, and it seems already this year there's been plenty.

Yes yes there's extenuating circumstances, yes theres injuries and kids getting games... poor conditions... but still... all the players tonight are professional AFL footballers. And plenty of them simply don't belong. If we want a great showpiece, I think the last player on your list in such a competition should still be an elite talent, taking the whole sport into perspective. They're just not at the moment.

We're looking here at players who can't kick accurately, can't handball, can't make an effective disposal decision even with plenty of time, they're dropping marks like bloody local footballers. They can't tackle properly. This isn't going to improve as more fitness and less skill work is done.

I'm not against watching battlers struggle against each other in a contest, but that's what I get when I stroll down to the local park on a Saturday afternoon. When I flick on the TV to watch an elite game I expect that. And too often lately it's been anything but.

I know all teams can have good and bad days, but they're all in the same league here, and I feel if we got one of last nights performances against the Hawthorn team I saw against Freo the other week, the margin would be 200+. It's gone beyond reasonable.

All leagues in all sports will generally have one or two strugglers. It seems like in the AFL we now have half a dozen. The most repeated cliche in the media recently must be "well the game didn't reach any great heights".

We want to talk about equalisation, the reason we're needing to even think about extreme measure like revenue sharing is there's just too many clubs. Making 18 clubs equal is borderline impossible. It's spread too thin, the ingredients just aren't available.

It's not a shot at Richmond or Brisbane or anybody else. We all know it's cyclical in this league and in a few years they'll be up there and this will be our own clubs.

I'm starting to think that if the AFL genuinely want an ELITE competition, the only option left is two divisions. We simply don't have the elite talent available to fill 18 lists. Yes I know it won't happen, I'm just saying.

Are we doomed to the permanent prospect of a hell of a lot of poor football, as long as we persist with 18 clubs?

 

[lamaros]

Because we've never had crap players in the AFL before, right?

Chicken little nostalgia, I'm sorry to say.

 

[FootyJunkie]

Bring back the old VFL? 6 games on a Saturday arvo?

 

[PhiloBeddoe]

Don't entirely disagree with OP but we may need to look further down for what's happening at TAC level. More resources need be pumped into keeping talented junior footballers in the system. Too many have extraneous issues that are affecting their levels of motivation and hence dedication to succeeding at TAC level and even in development programs at under 16 level.

 

[fabulousphil]

I think we've scraped the barrel clean and there ain't nothing left.

In purely relative terms, I don't know that the game at the elite level (in terms of basic skills) has been in worse shape for some time, and the gap between top and bottom is enormous.

Games like last night are nothing more than appalling. I think I started to notice last year there were more of them, and it seems already this year there's been plenty.

Yes yes there's extenuating circumstances, yes theres injuries and kids getting games... poor conditions... but still... all the players tonight are professional AFL footballers. And plenty of them simply don't belong. If we want a great showpiece, I think the last player on your list in such a competition should still be an elite talent, taking the whole sport into perspective. They're just not at the moment.

We're looking here at players who can't kick accurately, can't handball, can't make an effective disposal decision even with plenty of time, they're dropping marks like bloody local footballers. They can't tackle properly. This isn't going to improve as more fitness and less skill work is done.

I'm not against watching battlers struggle against each other in a contest, but that's what I get when I stroll down to the local park on a Saturday afternoon. When I flick on the TV to watch an elite game I expect that. And too often lately it's been anything but.

I know all teams can have good and bad days, but they're all in the same league here, and I feel if we got one of last nights performances against the Hawthorn team I saw against Freo the other week, the margin would be 200+. It's gone beyond reasonable.

All leagues in all sports will generally have one or two strugglers. It seems like in the AFL we now have half a dozen. The most repeated cliche in the media recently must be "well the game didn't reach any great heights".

We want to talk about equalisation, the reason we're needing to even think about extreme measure like revenue sharing is there's just too many clubs. Making 18 clubs equal is borderline impossible. It's spread too thin, the ingredients just aren't available.

It's not a shot at Richmond or Brisbane or anybody else. We all know it's cyclical in this league and in a few years they'll be up there and this will be our own clubs.

I'm starting to think that if the AFL genuinely want an ELITE competition, the only option left is two divisions. We simply don't have the elite talent available to fill 18 lists. Yes I know it won't happen, I'm just saying.

Are we doomed to the permanent prospect of a hell of a lot of poor football, as long as we persist with 18 clubs?

2 things ......

The AFL and clubs through O/S and growing the game in NSW/QLD is attempting to draw out and identify good footballers, but the problem is a lot of the time all they are doing is identifying great athletes, great athletes as we all know dont always make great footballers.

IMO there are plenty of footballers with greater skill, vision and footballing smarts playing in anywhere but the AFL, and ATM that will not change untill possibly the I/C cap is lowered and then possibly not anyway.

A great example of the AFL attempting to find footballers that will bolster the comp is this .... http://www.worldfootynews.com/article.php/20140414134310786 or the talent ID camps in Ireland or South Africa, or the huge increase in funding and money spent in NSW and QLD over the last 5/10 years.

Will all this work, eventually filter through and lift the overall standard ?, that is the million dollar question.

 

[Pessimistic]

Welcome back Ross ?

Culling teams would work if you got another chance to do it properly eh ?

Most of the last players on each afl list play vfl, which is a pretty good standard. Wafl and sanfl too. Not sure about neafl

Pre season the hawks reserves played the lions reserves an the difference was as much as you suggested, up to 200 pts worth


Also last week people rated the hawks performance against gold coast. After the game the hawks players noted how difficult the sweaty conditions were to play footy in

This may be a factor. Its not so long a go it was a given that skills at night were inferior overall

 

[Furn2]

Wasn't the talent spread across more teams in the old days with 30 odd teams across Vic, SA and WA?

 

[madmug]

The game itself has changed so much that you need players who are great athletes & have great ball skills. But their are only so many of them about.
The nostalgics among us would lament the loss of the clever ball players who may not have been the quickest, but had great footy skills.
I know The Game needs to keep changing to eliminate head high contacts etc, But they also need to reduce the ridiculous amount of running the game now demands.
People like Diesel Williams etc wouldnt get a look in now.

Also, Bring back the drop kick!!

 

[Doggy doo doo]

The ball looked like it was covered in grease all night and Brisbane are playing heaps of kids because all their pea heart players got home sick!
End thread

 

[leeloo]

I agree with the OP to a certain extent. Last nights game was something you generally expect at the end of the season, not the start.

But the talent will spread back into other teams now that the expansion teams are getting into a bit of form and they won't be cherry picking the draft as much.

I'm not so sure that GWS and GC will ever be able to stand up on their own financially though.

 

[master bate]

We cant' find 18 teams worth of players to play high intensity defensive footy and still move the ball cleanly to attack. That's pretty obvious to me.

Young teams like Brisbane particularly suffer because kids can't run out full games, notice the Lions 3rd quarter red time performance.

GWS and Gold Coast holding so many gun youngsters is also a problem. GWS and Gold Coast should theoretically have a few older players from top 4 sides like Hawthorn and Geelong and in return a few promising kids should be playing in mid level and worse sides. This isn't having a go at GWS and Gold Coast I'm just saying the new teams have put things out of whack.

Hopefully when the expansion clubs mature the age profiles of lists and the spread of young talent start coming back to a much more even distribution.

And we have to find more kids in NSW and Queensland. The difficulty is finding the best way with academies and getting value for the dollar invested. And what happened with the Irish. Port's talented kid went home. Touhy from Carlton is about all we've had in years.

 

[Cmarsh]

Is it as bad as the OP makes it out to be? My Father who has been watching footy for many decades says that the fitness levels and skills of the players are greater today than what they have ever been.

 

[fabulousphil]

The game itself has changed so much that you need players who are great athletes & have great ball skills. But their are only so many of them about.
The nostalgics among us would lament the loss of the clever ball players who may not have been the quickest, but had great footy skills.
I know The Game needs to keep changing to eliminate head high contacts etc, But they also need to reduce the ridiculous amount of running the game now demands.
People like Diesel Williams etc wouldnt get a look in now.

Also, Bring back the drop kick!!

The problem may possibly be that if the I/C is lowered significantly, clubs may even look for better endurance athletes.

It begs the question of once again, why we ever went to 4 unlimited I/C players when for the first 100 years of the game only 2 were needed, and they were only used to replace players, there was no I/C bench.

Look no further than Kevin Sheedy. ........ getting off track though

 

[EasternTiger]

I read somewhere they have changed the ball this year. Could just be players adjusting, especially if they used the old ones preseason. I remember one soccer world cup where they used a lighter ball, and basically fubared the tournament.

 

[Rob]

Gee, bit of an overreaction here. You'd think it was the first time we'd ever seen a rubbish game.

GWS v Dogs last week was a pretty good game for 2 ordinary sides. Compare it to that.

 

[fabulousphil]

Is it as bad as the OP makes it out to be? My Father who has been watching footy for many decades says that the fitness levels and skills of the players are greater today than what they have ever been.

I think peoples expectations are higher and quicker these days, the game is more skilled, but the game is also far far far quicker, IMO we need to slow it down a bit, so we can enjoy the skills a bit more.

The increase in fitness levels has far outweighed the increase in skill level in the last 20/30 years.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Because we've never had crap players in the AFL before, right?

Chicken little nostalgia, I'm sorry to say.

Perhaps, I dunno.

Maybe it's an expectation thing? The AFL is hyped beyond beyond belief. The marketing is ubiquitous in our community. We've seen so many aspects of the league compromised in the name of it being used as a marketing tool.

The gap in financials, resources and crowds between the top tier and the second (current state leagues) has never been so vast.

Maybe it just all creates the expectation of a super elite league.

It's like every aspect of the league has become that... Except the players themselves.

 

[qman]

Perhaps, I dunno.

Maybe it's an expectation thing? The AFL is hyped beyond beyond belief. The marketing is ubiquitous in our community. We've seen so many aspects of the league compromised in the name of it being used as a marketing tool.

The gap in financials, resources and crowds between the top tier and the second (current state leagues) has never been so vast.

Maybe it just all creates the expectation of a super elite league.

It's like every aspect of the league has become that... Except the players themselves.

I agree with what you are saying. There is no way that the current AFL competition could be described as an 'elite' league. The clubs and player's may prepare to an elite level but as you said there is simply way too many players who are not elite performers. Simply too many teams and players. People are against State Of Origin but at least it was contested between elite teams and elite players.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

How do you think we felt last week watching your blokes at Subi?

I dunno. You were booing a lot, but that seems pretty standard over there, some sort of ritualistic mating call or something.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Gee, bit of an overreaction here. You'd think it was the first time we'd ever seen a rubbish game.

GWS v Dogs last week was a pretty good game for 2 ordinary sides. Compare it to that.

Yeah I guess so. Although the Giants have a stack of elite talent, albeit undeveloped.

But not just in terms of a close game, more the spectacle of 44 elite performers doing their thing as well. How many games can we say we truly sit back and see that these days, as a proportion of the total?

 

[moses]

Take out all the expansion sides since 87 and football would be in a terrible at place. The cycle of players will sought itself out. I see nothing wrong with providing two new teams to give the opportunity to another 80 odd players up play at the elite level. Will be interesting to see the game in 10 years time

Sent from my XT905 using Tapatalk

 

[Cmarsh]

Perhaps, I dunno.

Maybe it's an expectation thing? The AFL is hyped beyond beyond belief. The marketing is ubiquitous in our community. We've seen so many aspects of the league compromised in the name of it being used as a marketing tool.

The gap in financials, resources and crowds between the top tier and the second (current state leagues) has never been so vast.

Maybe it just all creates the expectation of a super elite league.

It's like every aspect of the league has become that... Except the players themselves.

...and maybe this is the problem. The hype creates high expectations in the eyes of the viewer, and so we are let down when we see a few skill errors creep in.

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

Wasn't the talent spread across more teams in the old days with 30 odd teams across Vic, SA and WA?

Excellent point. The extra talent WA and SA have brought in easily outweighs the dilution from adding 6 extra teams.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

...and maybe this is the problem. The hype creates high expectations in the eyes of the viewer, and so we are let down when we see a few skill errors creep in.

I feel like it's gone beyond a few though. Genuinely elite footballers in terms of skill seem to almost be the exception at AFL level.

 

[tige19]

Last night was as a disgraceful game of footy I've ever seen in my life at any level of footy. I am positive a representative team from Melbourne metro leagues would have beaten both of last nights sides.

If last nights game was the example of what the lower tier of our elite comp is producing then yes we certainly need to divide the league with a relegation/promotion structure.

It was a pathetic excuse for a game of football.

Meh being on the pies vs kangas game, at least we will some decent coaching and silky footballers. Last night was a total embarrassment to the AFL.