F-35 Joint Strike Fighter - Abbott agrees to buy more, more, more.

[Max zero]

I'm in awe of your expertise and personal knowledge of these aircraft.

Unless of course you're just parroting some crap someone else has come up with, because lets face it, pretty much every new system in the part 50 years has been a called a dud (or similar) at some point during it's development. I said earlier there are risks, but, unlike you, I'd rather see proof before I write things off.

As for drones...sure, for air-ground strikes, they're fine, but where are the air superiority drones, without which the ground strike craft would be wiped out? Sure, in time they'll be developed (they're on the way already), but if you use the same criteria for assessment, current AS drones are 'duds'.

Thats the point. Why not buy specialised air superiority fighters that are not comprimised 'jack of trades' and leave ground strikes and recon work to drones?

 

[DivideandMultiply]

Should we be looking for solar powered fighters instead?

Not even real and probably still get it before the F-35.

 

[Power Raid]

Thats the point. Why not buy specialised air superiority fighters that are not comprimised 'jack of trades' and leave ground strikes and recon work to drones?

it is probably because we are a small nation and can't afford a full fleet of equipment. if we fight a nation requiring such a set up, we won't be fighting alone and we will rely upon the US. If we are fighting a smaller nation, it overkill.


In summary; we can beat Fiji, New Zealand and ring fence Indonesian islands with our current and planned air force. We will need the US's help to take on India, China and Russia.

 

[Power Raid]

Not even real and probably still get it before the F-35.

if solar is not ready yet, what about this wind powered one?

surely we can add a bit of green to our military's footprint

 

[Sydney Bloods]

in the mean time we could a whole bunch of F22's or eurofighters.

instead we are buying a plane that doesn't fly.

 

[Power Raid]

we won't need "amazing" fighter jet capabilities until post 2022. So we have time to get this right.

 

[Max zero]

it is probably because we are a small nation and can't afford a full fleet of equipment. if we fight a nation requiring such a set up, we won't be fighting alone and we will rely upon the US. If we are fighting a smaller nation, it overkill.


In summary; we can beat Fiji, New Zealand and ring fence Indonesian islands with our current and planned air force. We will need the US's help to take on India, China and Russia.

Considering the current cost of drones versus the F35 I don't think the economic cost argument is a good one.

Your looking a unit cost of 4-17 mil (Predator/Reaper) versus 125-156 mil for a F35.

That's a pretty major difference.

Not to mention the drones are available right now.

 

[Power Raid]

Considering the current cost of drones versus the F35 I don't think the economic cost argument is a good one.

Your looking a unit cost of 4-17 mil (Predator/Reaper) versus 125-156 mil for a F35.

That's a pretty major difference.

Not to mention the drones are available right now.

They are very different beasts with very different capabilities

We will have the drones as well as traditional manned aircraft. The future however will be unmanned but that will require further technology advances to be effective against a real threat (without support of manned aircraft).

 

[Max zero]

They are very different beasts with very different capabilities

We will have the drones as well as traditional manned aircraft. The future however will be unmanned but that will require further technology advances to be effective against a real threat (without support of manned aircraft).

True but that is primarily in the area of air superiority. Ground support and recon is already dominated by drones NOW. Look at the US in the Middle East now. Pretty much all of the ground strikes and recon work is drones.

 

[Power Raid]

True but that is primarily in the area of air superiority. Ground support and recon is already dominated by drones NOW. Look at the US in the Middle East now. Pretty much all of the ground strikes and recon work is drones.

I know Neal Blue reasonably well; he would be overjoyed by your support!

 

[Max zero]

I know Neal Blue reasonably well; he would be overjoyed by your support!

Don't think he needs (or is interested in) my support.

The growth of drones in general in the last decade has been immense.

 

[Smiling Buddha]

Power Raid playing the 'trust the government, everything will be fine' angle as per usual.

 

[stormee]

Thats the point. Why not buy specialised air superiority fighters that are not comprimised 'jack of trades' and leave ground strikes and recon work to drones?

Show me how a drone deters Jakarta in the event of a Timor-like crisis. F-111s were armed and on the runway, and it's been said that the head of the Indo military told Habibie that they could put a bomb through the window of the room they were standing in.

These days that role would be achieved by Super Hornets, in future by the F-35. There is no drone that matches this capability, and it is a strategic deterrent. Now you'll say 'oh but the JSF can't fly as far, as fast blah blah blah' compared to an F-111... but look at the difference in ordinance they can carry now - stick an AGM-158 JASSM on an F-35 and you can fire and forget from 370km, or over 1000 with a JASSM-ER.

F-22 could not accomplish this role anywhere near as well as the F-35, and I doubt the Eurofighter could either.

 

[QuietB]

As seen with recent events. Not to mention how unlikely we could get access to latest tech from Russia, no way they will sell us their best stuff when were so close to the US.

Given current relation I'd be astounded if they didn't give us everything they have got

The selection has SFA to do with performance and everything to do with US relations.

 

[Max zero]

Show me how a drone deters Jakarta in the event of a Timor-like crisis. F-111s were armed and on the runway, and it's been said that the head of the Indo military told Habibie that they could put a bomb through the window of the room they were standing in.

These days that role would be achieved by Super Hornets, in future by the F-35. There is no drone that matches this capability, and it is a strategic deterrent. Now you'll say 'oh but the JSF can't fly as far, as fast blah blah blah' compared to an F-111... but look at the difference in ordinance they can carry now - stick an AGM-158 JASSM on an F-35 and you can fire and forget from 370km, or over 1000 with a JASSM-ER.

F-22 could not accomplish this role anywhere near as well as the F-35, and I doubt the Eurofighter could either.

You know we could buy a reduced number of F35s to fulfil the air superiority role and leave the Drones for everything else.

US Ground strike operations and recon are completely dominated by Drones. Pilot numbers and readiness is falling and they are training new Drone pilots are a higher rate then new fighter pilots.

The writing is on the wall.

 

[Power Raid]

You know we could buy a reduced number of F35s to fulfil the air superiority role and leave the Drones for everything else.

US Ground strike operations and recon are completely dominated by Drones. Pilot numbers and readiness is falling and they are training new Drone pilots are a higher rate then new fighter pilots.

The writing is on the wall.

The future is unmanned subs, ships and aircraft and probably even tanks.

The biggest risk in battle is not death but boredom and loneliness. I imagine war could not only become an office job but even a work from home job.

 

[stormee]

You know we could buy a reduced number of F35s to fulfil the air superiority role and leave the Drones for everything else.

US Ground strike operations and recon are completely dominated by Drones. Pilot numbers and readiness is falling and they are training new Drone pilots are a higher rate then new fighter pilots.

The writing is on the wall.

US operations over the last decade have been in spaces where they have been opposed to forces that did not possess any air combat capability.

I assure you that the moment they come up against a near peer competitor every drone they send into the sky will get shot down before it can launch a missile, and that's when manned fighters will be valuable.

Having said that, I do agree we need to invest in armed drones - but in addition to manned aircraft, not as a replacement.

 

[Max zero]

I assure you that the moment they come up against a near peer competitor every drone they send into the sky will get shot down before it can launch a missile, and that's when manned fighters will be valuable.

Having said that, I do agree we need to invest in armed drones - but in addition to manned aircraft, not as a replacement.

Who would this near peer competitor be? China? They are going crazy on drones too.

Well at the moment all of our money is going into the F35 and basically nothing towards Drones.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...-buy-deadly-reaper-drones-20140509-zr7oy.html

Our Air Force seems keen.

 

[Max zero]

The future is unmanned subs, ships and aircraft and probably even tanks.

The biggest risk in battle is not death but boredom and loneliness. I imagine war could not only become an office job but even a work from home job.

The psychological effects as well. Apparently drone pilots actually suffer more psychological effects then regular pilots because Drone piloting is like an office job: there is no seperation between military and civilian life. They will kill militants during the day, then clock off, pick up the kids from school and have dinner at home.

 

[Elroo]

Show me how a drone deters Jakarta in the event of a Timor-like crisis. F-111s were armed and on the runway, and it's been said that the head of the Indo military told Habibie that they could put a bomb through the window of the room they were standing in.

These days that role would be achieved by Super Hornets, in future by the F-35. There is no drone that matches this capability, and it is a strategic deterrent. Now you'll say 'oh but the JSF can't fly as far, as fast blah blah blah' compared to an F-111... but look at the difference in ordinance they can carry now - stick an AGM-158 JASSM on an F-35 and you can fire and forget from 370km, or over 1000 with a JASSM-ER.

F-22 could not accomplish this role anywhere near as well as the F-35, and I doubt the Eurofighter could either.

Tomahawk Cruise missiles, $1.5 million each, 1300km range, highly accurate, available right now. Buy 200 from the US, there's $300 million plus say another $150 million for missile support/maintenance. So for less than $500 million, we have purchased a proven long range strategic strike capability.

 

[Power Raid]

Tomahawk Cruise missiles, $1.5 million each, 1300km range, highly accurate, available right now. Buy 200 from the US, there's $300 million plus say another $150 million for missile support/maintenance. So for less than $500 million, we have purchased a proven long range strategic strike capability.

I would prefer we invite our enemies army to Adelaide instead. Take them straight off the plane and show them around Alberton, Salisbury and Elizabeth.

It would take them years to recover from the psychological trauma but at least the world would be safe again.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

Show me how a drone deters Jakarta in the event of a Timor-like crisis. F-111s were armed and on the runway, and it's been said that the head of the Indo military told Habibie that they could put a bomb through the window of the room they were standing in.

These days that role would be achieved by Super Hornets, in future by the F-35. There is no drone that matches this capability, and it is a strategic deterrent. Now you'll say 'oh but the JSF can't fly as far, as fast blah blah blah' compared to an F-111... but look at the difference in ordinance they can carry now - stick an AGM-158 JASSM on an F-35 and you can fire and forget from 370km, or over 1000 with a JASSM-ER.

F-22 could not accomplish this role anywhere near as well as the F-35, and I doubt the Eurofighter could either.

your forgetting the part where the F35 can't even get airborne right now........ meanwhile the money continues to be poured into this great white elephant of the skies.

 

[stormee]

What's the downside to the su 33?

It's Russian.

 

[stormee]

Lol

Also its a carrier based version of the su-27 so prob not the best fighter for our purposes.

 

[stormee]

So, the Sukhoi is Russian.

But you defend the JSF against everything?

Yeah. Because if we were in a conflict we could get guaranteed sources of parts, weapons, etc from the US, which we wouldn't get from the Russians. That's probably the key point.

Secondly, systems integration. How well is a Russian radar going to talk to an Australian AWACS, or an Australian Growler? Do they have datalinks? How will they interact with US and other allied jets and forces? Will their air to air refuelling links work with our tankers?

Third, it's firmly within generation 4 - 4.5. The F-35 is the only generation 5 aircraft that is available and mature.