F-35 Joint Strike Fighter - Abbott agrees to buy more, more, more.

[medusala]

Yeah. Because if we were in a conflict we could get guaranteed sources of parts, weapons, etc from the US, which we wouldn't get from the Russians. That's probably the key point.

Yes, see Argies and exocets.

 

[telsor]

Who would this near peer competitor be? China? They are going crazy on drones too.

Well at the moment all of our money is going into the F35 and basically nothing towards Drones.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...-buy-deadly-reaper-drones-20140509-zr7oy.html

Our Air Force seems keen.

For ground attack, when you have total aerial superiority, drones are great.

But drones lumbering in at 482KPH would be slaughtered by even the most basic defenses otherwise (aircraft or SAM).

 

[telsor]

We can't even get a guaranteed date for our first plane, let alone parts...

How about Today?

https://www.f35.com/news/detail/australia-taking-delivery-of-first-f-35-plans-to-buy-72

"July 23, 2014

Australia will take delivery of its first F-35 Lightning II on Thursday from Lockheed Martin in Texas, according to an Australian Defence Force spokesman."

And I don't think the need for replacement parts is a great reason for such an increase in cost...


How hard do you think that would be to integrate?
Don't forget, with the Sukhoi, we would be given the entire construction specs.
With the JSF, it's all a big secret.


Where is the F-25 available? I will be very pissed off if it is available, and we are still waiting for our initial order!

What can the JSF do that the Sukhoi can't?

Operate more closely with our likely allies (the US), have a reliable supply of parts and replacements should the need arise, and not be beholden to Putin and his crime gang.

 

[stormee]

OK telsor, I like you, so I won't be a dick. [read: trynottobe]
You literally quote the propaganda about the f-35... from f35.com...
What do you think I[anyone] should take from that?

Again you talk about reliable parts and replacements, based on America.
Do you know that the Sukhoi plans are readily available for anyone to purchase? India is currently mass producing their own.

We wouldn't need to rely on parts, if America trusted us enough to give us the construction details of this mysterious plane.

I still don't understand how you support it.

Show me the manufacturing industry in Australia that can support producing a complex fighter jet. Last one we put together was the Mirage in the 70's I think.

 

[stormee]

We don't have the capability to create parts, let alone the plane itself?

What do you think would take less time?
Modifying our (now out of business) car manufacturing plants.
Or receiving our first JSF?

You can't just reconfigure a car manufacturing plant. We'll have our first squadron of JSFs long before we'd have a squadron of Russian jets.

 

[telsor]

OK telsor, I like you, so I won't be a dick. [read: trynottobe]
You literally quote the propaganda about the f-35... from f35.com...
What do you think I[anyone] should take from that?

Pretty hard to propagandize "here is the plane". It's either handed over or it's not.

Again you talk about reliable parts and replacements, based on America.
Do you know that the Sukhoi plans are readily available for anyone to purchase? India is currently mass producing their own.

We wouldn't need to rely on parts, if America trusted us enough to give us the construction details of this mysterious plane.

I still don't understand how you support it.

Considering the materials and engineering requirements, having the plans means very little unless you're willing to spend a fortune on factories to produce said parts.

I support it due to lack of realistic options (and yes, I don't think any Russian plane would qualify under that). The only possible option as I see it would be the Eurofighter (given that the F-22 isn't for sale).

 

[telsor]

Seriously? If we said, "yes, we will buy the Sukhoi SU", the JSF would be here sooner?

So, as you know that the JSF will be here long before the Sukhoi... What is the date that we will receive our fist JSF?

Today.

As stated.

BTW, The second one is due next month. (back in November, July and August were stated as the delivery dates).

Plan is for pilots to start training in the US alongside US pilots early next year (until then they're being tested), delivery in Aus in 2018 with the first operational squadron operational in 2020. Not sure how you think the Sukhoi would be faster than that (do they need less training to fly them?).

 

[telsor]

Good point. So where is it?...

Texas. We'll be training with the US pilots.

You honestly don't think that it would be cheaper to adapt existing manufacturing plants to create a plane, compared to paying the USA what we are?

Just pause and think about it logically for a second.

If we had the plans and the ability to manufacture... we would be better off during war times... rather than waiting for shipment of new parts...

I really don't understand your position.

So, you think we could adapt a factory to create a relatively small number of a massive variety of parts in a variety of advanced materials, and it would be more cost effective that a pre existing plant that produces at least 20 times as many parts (supplying planes globally). Even without the upfront costs of setting up the plant and training the staff, the economies of scale would more than make up the profit margin.

Military plans are made for bad scenarios...not worst case because absolute worst case we're stuffed, but of the likely scenarios, is it more likely that the Russians cut us off, or the US?

Even if the US isn't involved, they have a good record of supporting their allies with spares, support and intel ... (e.g. Falklands, East Timor). What's Russia's track record like?

 

[stormee]

Haha, C'mon telsor, you must be pulling my leg!

A blog post, saying we currently have a JSF in Australia, owned by us...

And then you point out, that in 6 years, we will have a trained squadron?

We can purchase, and own sukhoi's, right now...

What does the much more expensive, and still unable to give evidence of it's strengths, have over the Sukhoi?

We can't purchase them right now. They'd need to be built. The Su 30mki that the Indians run was a variation of mature tech. Nonetheless, they ordered in 1996 and their first batch of 10 wasn't delivered until 2002. Now you may say that's quick - and perhaps it is. But again, mature tech and production lines vs cutting edge tech for F-35. If we ordered now we MIGHT get our first squadron on line at the same time as the F-35 will be. But they would have to be built in Russia.

Not much point really.

 

[telsor]

Haha, C'mon telsor, you must be pulling my leg!

A blog post, saying we currently have a JSF in Australia, owned by us...

And then you point out, that in 6 years, we will have a trained squadron?

We can purchase, and own sukhoi's, right now...

What does the much more expensive, and still unable to give evidence of it's strengths, have over the Sukhoi?

Wait, you're not even talking about the T-50s?

So you want old technology planes...Unstealthy, crap avionics....Hell, if we wanted that we could just buy more F-18s.

Even if the Sukhois arrived in Aus today (do they really have 75 just sitting around? Doubtful), how long before we're trained up on them?

 

[stormee]

Sukhoi says "Here are the plans, make what you want, just pay us royalties".\

They don't do that. You purchase 'kits' from Sukhoi, they ship them to you, you assemble them.

 

[telsor]

You seem to be pointing out my own point...
What is the benefit of the US sending us replacement parts (Shouldn't need them as is), during war times?

If we are cut off from America... Who will manufacture, or repair out airforce? America trusts us enough, to refuse the construction details of the JSF...

The benefit? Well, I'm sure we'll have a stockpile, but war tempo tends to burn things out pretty quickly (both flying more often, pushing limits harder and yes, getting shot at), so a years stockpile might be blown through in a month, so knowing you can get more is always good.

Getting cut off isn't an especially likely scenario, and if it happens than planes from the US to Aus get intercepted regularly, we're pretty stuffed anyway.

Sukhoi says "Here are the plans, make what you want, just pay us royalties".

For their old planes, perhaps ...I bet the US would give us planes for F-16s if we asked nicely.

You honestly don't think it will be cheaper, in the long term, to have an Australian processing plant, vs buying everything from America???

Yes. Not least because we'd require many plants. Hell, there are 18 Aus companies building parts, and we're a small part of the whole.

Also, these planes are designed to be upgraded (mostly the software, but the hardware as well). Do we rebuy the plans, and retool the factories every time?

 

[Power Raid]

Haha, C'mon telsor, you must be pulling my leg!

A blog post, saying we currently have a JSF in Australia, owned by us...

And then you point out, that in 6 years, we will have a trained squadron?

We can purchase, and own sukhoi's, right now...

What does the much more expensive, and still unable to give evidence of it's strengths, have over the Sukhoi?

why in the world would we buy a russian fighter?

aircraft supremacy is not won by the aircraft rather it is won by the combat systems. when was the last time you bought a russian computer?

when you have, let's revisit the concept.

 

[Max zero]

For ground attack, when you have total aerial superiority, drones are great.

But drones lumbering in at 482KPH would be slaughtered by even the most basic defenses otherwise (aircraft or SAM).

And the F35 is what exactly? Immune to SAMs and other aircraft?

Can you give us a list of air to air combat operations Australia has been engaged in since WW2 (its not as difficult as it sounds)?

Just find it strange to spend 10s of billions on something we haven't done (and might not do) for quite some time.

 

[telsor]

And the F35 is what exactly? Immune to SAMs and other aircraft?

Can you give us a list of air to air combat operations Australia has been engaged in since WW2 (its not as difficult as it sounds)?

Just find it strange to spend 10s of billions on something we haven't done (and might not do) for quite some time.

Not immune, but a lot safer.

We haven't fought an opponent who uses submarines since WW2 either...Should the navy ignore anti-sub weapons and tactics?

 

[Max zero]

Not immune, but a lot safer.

We haven't fought an opponent who uses submarines since WW2 either...Should the navy ignore anti-sub weapons and tactics?

Judging by how the Collins class have gone maybe we should have.

 

[telsor]

Judging by how the Collins class have gone maybe we should have.

Anti sub, not sub (although they are meant to be able to combat subs as well).

 

[Max zero]

Anti sub, not sub (although they are meant to be able to combat subs as well).

Is it possible the same thing that plagued the Collins class submarines (lack of trained staff) could also affect the F35. Do we have enough pilots to run 72 F35s on a combat rotation?

 

[Power Raid]

We should privatise the military. We could achieve so much more on so much less.

 

[Max zero]

We should privatise the military. We could achieve so much more on so much less.

We could have an Australian version of Blackwater/Xe Services/Academi.

What could go wrong?

 

[Floor Pie]

The benefit? Well, I'm sure we'll have a stockpile, but war tempo tends to burn things out pretty quickly (both flying more often, pushing limits harder and yes, getting shot at), so a years stockpile might be blown through in a month, so knowing you can get more is always good.

Getting cut off isn't an especially likely scenario, and if it happens than planes from the US to Aus get intercepted regularly, we're pretty stuffed anyway.



For their old planes, perhaps ...I bet the US would give us planes for F-16s if we asked nicely.



Yes. Not least because we'd require many plants. Hell, there are 18 Aus companies building parts, and we're a small part of the whole.

Also, these planes are designed to be upgraded (mostly the software, but the hardware as well). Do we rebuy the plans, and retool the factories every time?

I feel like you are contradicting your points for the support of the JSF, intentionally.

why in the world would we buy a russian fighter?

aircraft supremacy is not won by the aircraft rather it is won by the combat systems. when was the last time you bought a russian computer?

when you have, let's revisit the concept.

What? Hahaha. So we should but from China or Taiwan? Bali is pretty popular for Aussies as well!

We should privatise the military. We could achieve so much more on so much less.

Now I know you are trolling!
Haha, you got me!

 

[telsor]

Is it possible the same thing that plagued the Collins class submarines (lack of trained staff) could also affect the F35. Do we have enough pilots to run 72 F35s on a combat rotation?

We have that many now, so I doubt it'll be a huge problem (quality and retention are ongoing issues however, but that's been the case for decades).

Actually, we have more, as we're cutting down the number of combat planes we'll have (was 3 squadrons of hornets, 1 of F-111s, will be 3 only F-35s, although another squadron is still a possibility).

 

[telsor]

We could have an Australian version of Blackwater/Xe Services/Academi.

What could go wrong?

wow...just had an old memory..

Back in High school I wrote an essay or something that posited private militarys as providing the ultimate in hostile takeovers (don't recall the details, just that line)

 

[telsor]

I feel like you are contradicting your points for the support of the JSF, intentionally.

How am I contradicting myself?

 

[Max zero]

We have that many now, so I doubt it'll be a huge problem (quality and retention are ongoing issues however, but that's been the case for decades).

Actually, we have more, as we're cutting down the number of combat planes we'll have (was 3 squadrons of hornets, 1 of F-111s, will be 3 only F-35s, although another squadron is still a possibility).

Yes but how many of those can we maintain on full combat rotation (have we ever)?

Add to that when we actually need them there is always the possibilities of casualties.