F-35 Joint Strike Fighter - Abbott agrees to buy more, more, more.

[stormee]

The super hornets where ordered as a stop gap due to the JSF delays and are obsolete in the near future as they are close to/if not already outgunned by the SU-30+ aircraft in the region.

Says who? Airpower Australia? Air combat power is more than simply the jet at your disposal. I'd be willing to put money on the fact that Australian Shornets working in combination with Wedgetail, Growler and our tankers would defeat almost all Russian based threats in the region very easily.

 

[Elroo]

Says who? Airpower Australia? Air combat power is more than simply the jet at your disposal. I'd be willing to put money on the fact that Australian Shornets working in combination with Wedgetail, Growler and our tankers would defeat almost all Russian based threats in the region very easily.

Then if the super hornets are sufficient to combat any other aircraft in the region then we should cancel the JSF.

 

[stormee]

Then if the super hornets are sufficient to combat any other aircraft in the region then we should cancel the JSF.

Just because they're sufficient doesn't mean they're the best. Australia has a miniscule yet highly capable military. Much of our regional advantage comes from having the most cutting edge technology and capabilities available, that are also interoperable with our allies. This is the F-35.

 

[Elroo]

Just because they're sufficient doesn't mean they're the best. Australia has a miniscule yet highly capable military. Much of our regional advantage comes from having the most cutting edge technology and capabilities available, that are also interoperable with our allies. This is the F-35.

So we have a miniscule yet highly capable military, so which aircraft in the region outguns the super hornets and requires us to spend billions replacing them with the JSF?

 

[telsor]

So we have a miniscule yet highly capable military, so which aircraft in the region outguns the super hornets and requires us to spend billions replacing them with the JSF?

Now, factoring in quality of pilots, etc..none.

In 10 years? Quite possibly several.

As you've noticed there are long lead times with these things, so you plan a long way ahead.

 

[Elroo]

Now, factoring in quality of pilots, etc..none.

In 10 years? Quite possibly several.

As you've noticed there are long lead times with these things, so you plan a long way ahead.

Which aircraft will be better than the super hornet and how will the JSF be better?

 

[telsor]

Which aircraft will be better than the super hornet and how will the JSF be better?

The countries that do get the JSF will have better aircraft.

Why? It's a lot more advanced. Stealth, avionics, integrated computer system, etc.

 

[Elroo]

The countries that do get the JSF will have better aircraft.

Why? It's a lot more advanced. Stealth, avionics, integrated computer system, etc.

The JSF will be a better aircraft than what?

Jes whats taxpayers money when it comes to waste war toys?

it's a lot more advanced. Stealth, avionics, integrated computer system, etc.

Is it?

I am still waiting for you to direct me to the law that prohibits the export of the F22 raptor.

 

[Jakko]

With snowden claiming that china stole most of the technical info on the F35, I wonder if at least part of the delays, technical difficulties and cost blowouts are due to modifications because of that?

 

[RUNVS]

With snowden claiming that china stole most of the technical info on the F35, I wonder if at least part of the delays, technical difficulties and cost blowouts are due to modifications because of that?

Doubt it. If the USA had the plane working they would not change the design just because the Chinese stole the secrets.

 

[stormee]

Which aircraft will be better than the super hornet and how will the JSF be better?

Hypothetical. If there is a regional conflict in 10 years time, why would we want the RAAF fighting with one hand tied behind its back because it had gen 4.5 jets rather than proper generation 5 aircraft that are networked, have the most capable radars and weapons systems, are the same aircraft our allies use.

Near enough is NOT good enough in this context.

The export of the F-22 is prohibited by the US congress. Also, the production line has ended. The F-35 is the best aircraft for Australia.

 

[Elroo]

Hypothetical. If there is a regional conflict in 10 years time, why would we want the RAAF fighting with one hand tied behind its back because it had gen 4.5 jets rather than proper generation 5 aircraft that are networked, have the most capable radars and weapons systems, are the same aircraft our allies use.

Near enough is NOT good enough in this context.

The export of the F-22 is prohibited by the US congress. Also, the production line has ended. The F-35 is the best aircraft for Australia.

No it is not

Also, the production line has ended.

And?

The F-35 is the best aircraft for Australia

Based upon what?

because it had gen 4.5 jets rather than proper generation 5 aircraft that are networked

Do you even know the difference between either and what the regional aircraft are?

 

[madmug]

The JSF will be a better aircraft than what?

Jes whats taxpayers money when it comes to waste war toys?

.

The only reason we are in with this Turkey, up to our elbows, is just to keep the USA happy. Who cares about a proper cost benefit analysis on defense, Abbott surely doesnt. Except obviously with things that are built here.

Really we just need a good naval presence in the region. Yes some surface assets, but mainly a very good submarine force.

An air war between say Australia & Indonesia, would last about 5 minutes, cost $millions, & solve nothing. A strong submarine force would be our best deterrent by far.

 

[stormee]

And you're arguing that the F-35 is no good in part because it's expensive, how astronomically expensive would it be to RESTART A PRODUCTION LINE to produce ~100 jets for Australia (when the US only has 187). It is also banned for export by congress. This is a fact.

Further, the F-22 is an air superiority fighter. It is not multi role, it cannot conduct maritime strike. The F-35 can.

I do know the difference between gen 4.5 and gen 5. For one, the 4.5 airframes are all now 20+ years old. the new Suhkoi models are based on Su-27 airframes that have been consistently upgraded. They do not have low-observable or low-radar technology. They do not have the datalinks and capacity of gen 5 aircraft. The f-35 is a new airframe with new technology.

Yes it's behind schedule, yes there are issues that are being worked through but that's commonly the case with new military technology.

 

[stormee]

The only reason we are in with this Turkey, up to our elbows, is just to keep the USA happy. Who cares about a proper cost benefit analysis on defense, Abbott surely doesnt. Except obviously with things that are built here.

Lol at blaming Abbott when this is a bipartisan decision.

 

[RUNVS]

I think the biggest problem was that the US Military wanted it to be a stealth aircraft. Not only does making it stealth create a huge number of massive technical problems but there is no guarantee that it will work or that technology will not be around in 5 years time that will light the fighter jet up like a Christmas tree. Much better not to bother with stealth and simply make the plane the best multi-purpose fighter jet it can be.

 

[Jakko]

Production ending doesn't mean no more can or will be built, just means they have enough for now (budget cuts as well). Yeah they aren't going to start up production just for us, but if at some point regional tensions rise and they begin building them en masse, we are in with a shot given our strategic importance.

F22 is mentioned because the focus seems to be on F35's ability (or lack of) as an air superiority fighter. F22s as top cover makes F35 a different animal completely to operating alone.

 

[Elroo]

And you're arguing that the F-35 is no good in part because it's expensive, how astronomically expensive would it be to RESTART A PRODUCTION LINE to produce ~100 jets for Australia (when the US only has 187). It is also banned for export by congress. This is a fact.

Further, the F-22 is an air superiority fighter. It is not multi role, it cannot conduct maritime strike. The F-35 can.

I do know the difference between gen 4.5 and gen 5. For one, the 4.5 airframes are all now 20+ years old. the new Suhkoi models are based on Su-27 airframes that have been consistently upgraded. They do not have low-observable or low-radar technology. They do not have the datalinks and capacity of gen 5 aircraft. The f-35 is a new airframe with new technology.

Yes it's behind schedule, yes there are issues that are being worked through but that's commonly the case with new military technology.

Learn how to quote.

And you're arguing that the F-35 is no good in part because it's expensive, how astronomically expensive would it be to RESTART A PRODUCTION LINE to produce ~1

The production line was open we John Howard bypassed the air6000 decison and picked the JSF after being wined and dined by the manufacturer.

It is also banned for export by congress. This is a fact.

Zero fact. The US under the Obey law of 19997/98 banned the use of taxpayer money marketing the F22 overseas. If the F22 was prohibited from export why was the US assessing Australia for suitability as an export partner 4-6 years after the Obey laws where passed as part of the air6000 process?

do know the difference between gen 4.5 and gen 5. For one, the 4.5 airframes are all now 20+ years old. the new Suhkoi models are based on Su-27 airframes that have been consistently upgraded. They do not have low-observable or low-radar technology. They do not have the datalinks and capacity of gen 5 aircraft. The f-35 is a new airframe with new technology.

You know nothing about the difference between the aircraft and why we need to get rid of the super hornet and to replace them with the JSF.

Yes it's behind schedule, yes there are issues that are being worked through but that's commonly the case with new military technology

Ah who cares about taxpayers money when it comes to buy military toys!

 

[Elroo]

I think the biggest problem was that the US Military wanted it to be a stealth aircraft. Not only does making it stealth create a huge number of massive technical problems but there is no guarantee that it will work or that technology will not be around in 5 years time that will light the fighter jet up like a Christmas tree. Much better not to bother with stealth and simply make the plane the best multi-purpose fighter jet it can be.

The JSF losses its stealth aspects when it arms up for its ground strike and even air to air roles!

 

[stormee]

You know nothing about the difference between the aircraft and why we need to get rid of the super hornet and to replace them with the JSF.

Lol and your credentials are?

 

[Jakko]

The JSF losses its stealth aspects when it arms up for its ground strike and even air to air roles!

Are you referring to when the doors open to release bombs or missiles? Or the mere act of carrying weapons?

 

[telsor]

The JSF will be a better aircraft than what?

Everything except, perhaps the F-22 (probably depending on role).

I am still waiting for you to direct me to the law that prohibits the export of the F22 raptor.

I told you, The Obey law, House amendment 295 "An amendment to prohibt the sale of F-22 aircraft to any foreign government."

 

[Elroo]

Lol and your credentials are?

Knowing more than you.

 

[Elroo]

Everything except, perhaps the F-22 (probably depending on role).

I told you, The Obey law, House amendment 295 "An amendment to prohibt the sale of F-22 aircraft to any foreign government."

Everything except, perhaps the F-22 (probably depending on role).

Yet it doesn't.

I told you, The Obey law, House amendment 295 "An amendment to prohibt the sale of F-22 aircraft to any foreign government

You didn't even know the law until I told you what it was.

Also the Obey amendment in 1997 to Defense appropriation bills simply added the following line;

None of the funds made available in this Act may be used to approve or license the sale of the F-22A advanced tactical fighter to any foreign government.”

It doesn't prohibit the export/sale of the F22 to any foreign government, it simply prohibits the use of taxpayers funds in the ACT from being to try and sell the aircraft to a foreign government.

Thats why we (Australia) had been assessed by the 1st stage of the 4 stage LO/CLOEXCOM process for export approval of the F-22 to Australia, and LM and the US F-22 Program Office had commenced putting together briefing material on the F22 Raptor for the Air6000. Both of these processes had been commenced after the Obey amendment had been introduced, but both ceased upon John Howard bypassing the Air6000 process and picked the JSF over the other contenders after being wined and dined by the JSF builders.

http://www.ausairpower.net/PDF-A/Email_FA-22_Advice to AIR6000_02Jul02.pdf

John and Pete,
Confirming the information passed on in my call last week to the AIR6000 office, I got a heads up from
a buddy in the USA to say the following:

1. People in the Pentagon, particularly in SAF(IA), are of the opinion that AIR6000 has been shut
down. It appears the News Brief they saw in the States on Australia’s decision to join the SDD
Phase of the JSF Program led to them drawing this conclusion (perception, or whatever one
wants to call it).
2. As a result, they are of the belief that Australia (particularly you folks) don’t want to see the
briefing material on the F-22 that had been prepared by the LM and the F-22 Program Office
and approved for release in response to the AIR6000 RFI. Therefore, there is not intention, at
this stage, to send it.

 

[stormee]

Knowing more than you.

Lol. Calls me out for 'not knowing anything' then won't back it up.

I'm sure you've read enough news.com.au articles on the F-35 program to become an expert on the subject.

Edit: loll referencing Airpower Australia. It's ok I know nothing I say will get through Kopp and Goon's 'extensive studies' on how good Sukhoi jets are.