Society/Culture Feminism part 1 - continued in part 2

[Barry_Badrinath]

FDNY drops physical test requirement amid low female hiring rate

Diversity > human lives

 

[SpuriousPea]

Diversity > human lives

feels>reals

 

[Tas]

Regardless of this report, pretty sure you will find lots of studies have been done and all indicate there is a real problem. The stats, indicating there are issues that need addressing, are quoted by people in the field, rather than just 'feminists' and by people in public positions e.g. Obama-do you think he would reference data based on questionable procedures?
Sorry but the paranoia exhibited by some posters in this area is plain silly
http://www.nsvrc.org/saam/campus-resource-list

The problem is that the data used is gathered based off surveys and internal reports, this is not data that is collected by law enforcement so it hasn't passed any kind of objectivity criteria. Looking at the site, I can't see what criteria they used to determine the data.

Some psychologists suggests the data is bogus because incidents which do not constitute rape or assault according to the law are classified as such by these campus records, things like "where you drunk at the time and didn't feel like sex but did have sex nonetheless?" Well, you wouldn't call that rape or sexual assault, if that constituted rape in our society then I think most men would be behind bars. Guys have sex when they don't feel like it, women do as well. Women probably a lot more than men.

When you look at the data you have to understand how the data is collected.

I am sure there are problems, kids go to uni and for many of them they are first exposed to alcohol or other substances, and are first exposed to a large group of women who they largely don't know who are also sexually active. It is bound to cause problems. In my time at uni I didn't notice anything untoward and never heard any stories of anyone being abused, either at the time or since.

I am sure bad stuff happens, but the kind of data they are pushing is really too hard to believe or take serious, what kind of human beings are people raising? How can so many be so bereft of morals? It is too hard to believe or take serious.

 

[Tas]

Here is a good article from Emily Yoffe of Slate magazine who goes into a lot of detail about the the whole rape culture myth in campus, gives a detailed example of a current case in an epidemic of young men denied natural justice in a system gone mad with political correctness and are fed by lies and the spread of misinformation.

http://www.slate.com/articles/doubl...ult_is_a_serious_problem_but_the_efforts.html

It is a very long and sad read, but highly recommend you read it, especially if you believe Obama wouldn't use dodgy figures to push an agenda.

As much as I feel for women who are victims of rape, I do not think persecuting innocent men is an acceptable outcome, you can't just believe an accuser, women historically have shown they will lie and are prepared to ruin the lives of men to avoid the consequences of their actions or when seeking attention.

 

[romeoh]

Here is a good article from Emily Yoffe of Slate magazine who goes into a lot of detail about the the whole rape culture myth in campus, gives a detailed example of a current case in an epidemic of young men denied natural justice in a system gone mad with political correctness and are fed by lies and the spread of misinformation.

http://www.slate.com/articles/doubl...ult_is_a_serious_problem_but_the_efforts.html

It is a very long and sad read, but highly recommend you read it, especially if you believe Obama wouldn't use dodgy figures to push an agenda.

As much as I feel for women who are victims of rape, I do not think persecuting innocent men is an acceptable outcome, you can't just believe an accuser, women historically have shown they will lie and are prepared to ruin the lives of men to avoid the consequences of their actions or when seeking attention.

Looks like a sensible article, and no doubt its been overblown and there have been some seriously unjust things happen ( to both sides) but haven't got time right now to read it all-can you pull out the part that suggests Obama would use dodgy info please etc and explain why he would push such an agenda?

 

[Tas]

Looks like a sensible article, and no doubt its been overblown and there have been some seriously unjust things happen ( to both sides) but haven't got time right now to read it all-can you pull out the part that suggests Obama would use dodgy info please etc and explain why he would push such an agenda?

"But the severe new policies championed by the White House, the Department of Education, and members of Congress are responding to the idea that colleges are in the grips of an epidemic—and the studies suggesting this epidemic don’t hold up to scrutiny. Bad policy is being made on the back of problematic research, and will continue to be unless we bring some healthy skepticism to the hard work of putting a number on the prevalence of campus rape."

"The Sexual Victimization of College Women, a 2000 study commissioned by the U.S. Department of Justice, is the basis for anotherwidely cited statistic, even grimmer than the finding of CSA: that one in four college women will be raped. (An activist organization, One in Four, takes its name from the finding.) The study itself, however, found a completed rape rate among its respondents of 1.7 percent. How does a study that finds less than 2 percent of college women in a given year are raped become a 25 percent likelihood?"

As the author notes, even one rape is a bad thing and I agree wholeheartedly. Even 1.7% is a bad figure, however, these numbers are being stretched to unbelievable magnitudes comparing US colleges of having the same rape rates as the Congo where rape has been used as a weapon of war.

 

[romeoh]

"But the severe new policies championed by the White House, the Department of Education, and members of Congress are responding to the idea that colleges are in the grips of an epidemic—and the studies suggesting this epidemic don’t hold up to scrutiny. Bad policy is being made on the back of problematic research, and will continue to be unless we bring some healthy skepticism to the hard work of putting a number on the prevalence of campus rape."

"The Sexual Victimization of College Women, a 2000 study commissioned by the U.S. Department of Justice, is the basis for anotherwidely cited statistic, even grimmer than the finding of CSA: that one in four college women will be raped. (An activist organization, One in Four, takes its name from the finding.) The study itself, however, found a completed rape rate among its respondents of 1.7 percent. How does a study that finds less than 2 percent of college women in a given year are raped become a 25 percent likelihood?"

As the author notes, even one rape is a bad thing and I agree wholeheartedly. Even 1.7% is a bad figure, however, these numbers are being stretched to unbelievable magnitudes comparing US colleges of having the same rape rates as the Congo where rape has been used as a weapon of war.

Thanks for that and will certainly have proper read when I get time.
Sounds like the people using the research are doing so without realizing its probelmatic-what agenda would the Whitehouse, Dept of educ etc have for perpetuating this misleading info though?

 

[SpuriousPea]

Politicians like public support. 'Protecting women' is the easiest thing in the political world to pull out and drum up that support. Who the * is going to say 'no' to it? Making the world safer and more comfortable for women is the driving force to our attempts to civilise the planet.

 

[Tas]

Thanks for that and will certainly have proper read when I get time.
Sounds like the people using the research are doing so without realizing its probelmatic-what agenda would the Whitehouse, Dept of educ etc have for perpetuating this misleading info though?

It is a good read, I took a few goes to get through all of it, there was a lot to take in, especially if you follow the links.

It is hard to tell why they have chosen to distort the truth like they have, perhaps it is political or sociological motivation, maybe just incompetent, who knows.

Ultimately, if the study was solid then it wouldn't matter how gullible or politically motivated the department of education is or the president of the united states are. These crappy studies are being used to create policy.

I think a lot more has to be done in order to set standards for studies, define which fields require people of various educational background and experience and ensure they are all peer reviewed to ensure the accuracy of the method, the data and the analysis. Whatever is going on some really shoddy studies are being produced.

 

[Tas]

 

[romeoh]

Yep-but so what -its a reporting of an incident that wasn't fair or just by the sounds.
I can probably rustle up an incident where a woman has been badly done by, by a husband. Or 2, or 3 or a 100. or a 1000. Suspect you will find there are many more examples of unfair treatment on the female side. Doesn't mean males don't suffer from it too, but not nearly as much. ( despite misleading 1/3 are men type campaigns)

 

[Tas]

Yep-but so what -its a reporting of an incident that wasn't fair or just by the sounds.
I can probably rustle up an incident where a woman has been badly done by, by a husband. Or 2, or 3 or a 100. or a 1000. Suspect you will find there are many more examples of unfair treatment on the female side. Doesn't mean males don't suffer from it too, but not nearly as much. ( despite misleading 1/3 are men type campaigns)

Women are hard done all the time, not the reason I linked it. This professor is just highlighting cases where the victims are punished by the law because they are male.

It would be like a female minor who was raped losing a custody battle to the rapist, the Earth would stop spinning if s**t like that went down.

It kind of debunks the concept of male privilege where the social, economic and political landscape provides advantages for men. Feminists like to preach the male privilege and the patriarchy as things still existing in society today, it is the opposite really when perpetrators of rape and abusing of minors are the ones being protected by society because of their gender.

 

[romeoh]

Women are hard done all the time, not the reason I linked it. This professor is just highlighting cases where the victims are punished by the law because they are male.

It would be like a female minor who was raped losing a custody battle to the rapist, the Earth would stop spinning if s**t like that went down.

It kind of debunks the concept of male privilege where the social, economic and political landscape provides advantages for men. Feminists like to preach the male privilege and the patriarchy as things still existing in society today, it is the opposite really when perpetrators of rape and abusing of victims are the ones being protected by society.

Yep you have found an incident whereby a male was unfairly disadvantaged because of his gender. And that is lousy.
I'd suggest that your example is the less frequent one. And that too often in our society, and certainly regularly in many other parts of the world, females are still the disadvantaged gender in economic, social and political terms.

 

[Tas]

Yep you have found an incident whereby a male was unfairly disadvantaged because of his gender. And that is lousy.
I'd suggest that your example is the less frequent one. And that too often in our society, and certainly regularly in many other parts of the world, females are still the disadvantaged gender in economic, social and political terms.

In large parts of the world, because large parts of the world are muslim.

The problem is the incident isn't isolated, it is quite common in western nations like USA, UK, Australia and parts of europe.

As the professor says:

"Much of the law relating to child support is based on the fact that it is typically in a child’s best interest to receive financial support from mothers as well as fathers. So strong is this precept that courts will hold a father liable for child support even in the face of wrongful conduct by the mother. Thus, child support is essentially a form of strict liability with the justification being that the child is an innocent party, and, therefore, it is the child’s interests and welfare that the court must look to in adjudicating support.

At first glance, such a standard seems eminently reasonable. Few would argue with the proposition that, if a man voluntarily has sex with a woman and a child results, then he should be liable for child support. The problem with the court’s current approach, however, is that the standard is so strict that even those men who never consented to the sexual act that caused the pregnancy are nonetheless liable for the support of the resulting child. These men include males who became fathers as a result of statutory rape and also adult males who became fathers either as a result of sexual assault or having their sperm stolen and used by a woman for purposes of self-insemination. In all such cases, these "fathers" have been held liable for child support."

 

[romeoh]

In large parts of the world, because large parts of the world are muslim.

The problem is the incident isn't isolated, it is quite common in western nations like USA, UK, Australia and parts of europe.

As the professor says:

"Much of the law relating to child support is based on the fact that it is typically in a child’s best interest to receive financial support from mothers as well as fathers. So strong is this precept that courts will hold a father liable for child support even in the face of wrongful conduct by the mother. Thus, child support is essentially a form of strict liability with the justification being that the child is an innocent party, and, therefore, it is the child’s interests and welfare that the court must look to in adjudicating support.

At first glance, such a standard seems eminently reasonable. Few would argue with the proposition that, if a man voluntarily has sex with a woman and a child results, then he should be liable for child support. The problem with the court’s current approach, however, is that the standard is so strict that even those men who never consented to the sexual act that caused the pregnancy are nonetheless liable for the support of the resulting child. These men include males who became fathers as a result of statutory rape and also adult males who became fathers either as a result of sexual assault or having their sperm stolen and used by a woman for purposes of self-insemination. In all such cases, these "fathers" have been held liable for child support."

How many men does this ruling affect?

 

[kfc1]

At first glance, such a standard seems eminently reasonable. Few would argue with the proposition that, if a man voluntarily has sex with a woman and a child results, then he should be liable for child support. The problem with the court’s current approach, however, is that the standard is so strict that even those men who never consented to the sexual act that caused the pregnancy are nonetheless liable for the support of the resulting child. These men include males who became fathers as a result of statutory rape and also adult males who became fathers either as a result of sexual assault or having their sperm stolen and used by a woman for purposes of self-insemination. In all such cases, these "fathers" have been held liable for child support."

in addition, the female has the option to terminate the pregnancy against the wishes of the father, despite the sex being voluntary. This is a privilege not afforded to fathers, not even in financial terms.

 

[clogged]

How many men does this ruling affect?

The fact it affects even one would suggest there is a blind spot in the law.

 

[romeoh]

The fact it affects even one would suggest there is a blind spot in the law.

Yep agree with that and it should be changed.
Don't have any issue with people highlighting the fact that men are disadvantaged sometimes, or discriminated against. And that is not good enough.
But feel it should be recognized that the male gender is not in the same ballpark as females when it comes to being disadvantaged.

 

[Raz0r6ack]

Yep you have found an incident whereby a male was unfairly disadvantaged because of his gender. And that is lousy.
I'd suggest that your example is the less frequent one. And that too often in our society, and certainly regularly in many other parts of the world, females are still the disadvantaged gender in economic, social and political terms.

Females are disadvantaged socially in our society? WTF?

 

[Tas]

How many men does this ruling affect?

It affects any man really, how many have been penalised to date? I don't know.

However, it is problematic if the system gives privilege to a woman who will get financial support from a male for deliberate crimes. Any woman who has a child in that manner should be sent to jail, their child taken from them and given up for adoption for a good home (if the father doesn't want custody) rather than punish the victim of the crime.

A women who breaks the law like that should not have the privilege of financial support from the victim.

 

[Run n Spread]

One thing I will never understand about the hardcore feminists..... greer et al. While making many claims to the left (hell some that are dead on and may improve society) when real sh*& hits the fan like the repugnant treatment of women in parts of the Islamic world they are deathly silent and sometimes condoning it. (i.e. FGM being a cultural practice according to Greer).

Fact is they have politically expedient polices which they will bend to suit their agenda and are hell bent on power just like the major political powers they claim to detest. So what do they really stand for?

 

[Run n Spread]

As much as I feel for women who are victims of rape, I do not think persecuting innocent men is an acceptable outcome, you can't just believe an accuser, women historically have shown they will lie and are prepared to ruin the lives of men to avoid the consequences of their actions or when seeking attention.

See your point. What is the alternative put foward? A bedrock of society which is a presumption of innocence and the right to due process stands unless you are accused of rape and then all bets are off and it is a witch hunt. The men in the slate article had every right to seek compensation/challenge the university.

 

[telsor]

How many men does this ruling affect?

If the situation was reversed, and a ruling negatively affected women, would you ask how many, or would you conclude that preference based on gender was wrong?

 

[romeoh]

If the situation was reversed, and a ruling negatively affected women, would you ask how many, or would you conclude that preference based on gender was wrong?

Who knows but the persecution complex that defines many in this thread can be pretty tedious. There is injustice sometimes against men and I have acknowledged its not good enough, but there is simply no contest regarding which gender is more persecuted in the world, and if you can't acknowledge that, then let's not even bother. Its not a lot to ask.

 

[fleabitten]

Who knows but the persecution complex that defines many in this thread can be pretty tedious. There is injustice sometimes against men and I have acknowledged its not good enough, but there is simply no contest regarding which gender is more persecuted in the world, and if you can't acknowledge that, then let's not even bother. Its not a lot to ask.

In the world, there's no question that women get the rough end. In the western world, not so much.