Opinion First Captain under Walsh?

[Ratto]

"take other people with them."

That's the part that hurts Van Berlo the most imo. Whilst he's not a match winner in his own right, I believe he can play the role that's assigned to him (although that can be questioned as well) but I don't believe he's one that really inspires the rest of our players to stand up during a game and that part seems to be something Walsh will weigh more heavily when making a decision.

Thank god for that. He actually wants a leader that leads.

We now have a coach that appears to know how to coach, so why not have both?

 

[Bacon8]

Pretty sure it does however say 'don't turn the ball over and/or directly contribute to opposition goals', so he's still in trouble I reckon.

Didn't realise 17 other captains have never turned a ball over in their AFL careers.

 

[ftmch]

"take other people with them."

That's the part that hurts Van Berlo the most imo. Whilst he's not a match winner in his own right, I believe he can play the role that's assigned to him (although that can be questioned as well) but I don't believe he's one that really inspires the rest of our players to stand up during a game and that part seems to be something Walsh will weigh more heavily when making a decision.

Was just about to say exactly that. For all of his endeavour and hard work (which I'm sure no one is questioning), he just doesn't have the ability to inspire on the field.

 

[ftmch]

Didn't realise 17 other captains have never turned a ball over in their AFL careers.

It's not about if, but how often. It was a regular feature of his game.

 

[baldandbroke]

I get the defence of VB, I like VB as a leader and a team player too ...

But, that doesn't mean that if he wasn't captain those things still wouldn't apply - and it also doesn't follow that just because VB has done a solid job as captain, that he is automatically the best person for the job.

I will back Walsh and Glass to find the best solution, and support whomever they put up as captain of my club.

Supporting a new captain, doesn't mean that you would be bagging VB.

 

[Bacon8]

Was just about to say exactly that. For all of his endeavour and hard work (which I'm sure no one is questioning), he just doesn't have the ability to inspire on the field.

Players take inspiration in different forms.

A quiet word can be just as inspiring as a great piece of play.

 

[Bacon8]

I get the defence of VB, I like VB as a leader and a team player too ...

But, that doesn't mean that if he wasn't captain those things still wouldn't apply - and it also doesn't follow that just because VB has done a solid job as captain, that he is automatically the best person for the job.

I will back Walsh and Glass to find the best solution, and support whomever they put up as captain of my club.

Supporting a new captain, doesn't mean that you would be bagging VB.

Conversely, Danger & Rory can still be leaders without being named captain.

 

[ftmch]

Players take inspiration in different forms.

A quiet word can be just as inspiring as a great piece of play.

I agree, and I'm not prescribing what form that inspiration should take, only that it manifests itself in some meaningful way on the field. And time and time again, it's been conspicuous by it's absence during vB's tenure.

 

[Bacon8]

I agree, and I'm not prescribing what form that inspiration should take, only that it manifests itself in some meaningful way on the field. And time and time again, it's been conspicuous by it's absence during vB's tenure.

Just so I can learn what I'm missing, can you point me to a game where it was conspicuous in it's absence?

 

[baldandbroke]

Conversely, Danger & Rory can still be leaders without being named captain.

Absolutely ...

And whichever of these (or someone else) is best to be captain, should be captain.

By picking one player to be captain does not denigrate the remaining 40 odd players on the list to being "below" the captain.

Captain is one role.

 

[baldandbroke]

I agree, and I'm not prescribing what form that inspiration should take, only that it manifests itself in some meaningful way on the field. And time and time again, it's been conspicuous by it's absence during vB's tenure.

We don't know that ... that is a guess.

The players might have a very different opinion, and one with more weight.

 

[ftmch]

Just so I can learn what I'm missing, can you point me to a game where it was conspicuous in it's absence?

* - where do I start? I've lost count of the number of games in recent years where we've been screaming out for some on field inspiration and leadership to help arrest the course and momentum of a game, only for vB to be virtually unsighted.

Perhaps you can point me to those games where he has? Games where, when the opposition has been getting a run on and we've needed some individual acts of leadership to inspire our guys into action, vB has stepped up as the good captains do and, in the words of Phil Walsh, 'taken the other players with him'?

We don't know that ... that is a guess.

The players might have a very different opinion, and one with more weight.

It's not a guess - it's an observation. I'm not talking about whether he's tried or what he's tried, only how it's manifested itself in a manner that 'takes the players with him'. I'm honestly struggling to think of a game where I can say, 'bugger me, vB really changed the course of that game'.

That I can readily think of such examples for captains from a number of other clubs who I don't even follow or watch that regularly, speaks volumes about just how manifestly unsuitable vB has been as captain for us, particularly in this context.

 

[Bacon8]

* - where do I start? I've lost count of the number of games in recent years where we've been screaming out for some on field inspiration and leadership to help arrest the course and momentum of a game, only for vB to be virtually unsighted.

Perhaps you can point me to those games where he has? Games where, when the opposition has been getting a run on and we've needed some individual acts of leadership to inspire our guys into action, vB has stepped up as the good captains do and, in the words of Phil Walsh, 'taken the other players with him'?

So, no you can't then.

Maybe check out the back end of 2011. Specifically, the games where Bickley was in charge.

 

[baldandbroke]

It's not a guess - it's an observation. I'm not talking about whether he's tried or what he's tried, only how it's manifested itself in a manner that 'takes the players with him'. I'm honestly struggling to think of a game where I can say, 'bugger me, vB really changed the course of that game'.

That I can readily think of such examples for captains from a number of other clubs who I don't even follow or watch that regularly, speaks volumes about just how manifestly unsuitable vB has been as captain for us, particularly in this context.

Well he didn't play last year, that makes it feel like longer

I think you are guessing what you see as a lack of inspiration to the players. It could be something as simple as how disciplined he is, how hard at the contest he is, how he sacrifices himself with running and covering.

I just watched the game from 2012, round 8 ... the game where Murphy got smashed by Dangerfield.

Also only the 2nd game for JJ, not bad at all !!

http://www.afl.com.au/video/smart-replay?round=CD_R201201408&matchId=CD_M20120140808

Dangerfield was immense, Sloane ran his heart out, Tex stood tall. VB was one of the most influential players on the ground.

This talk about VB being a less than great captain is only coming from outside the club, why do you think the players came out in support for VB as their captain? Obligation? I doubt it. There must be something to it.

As I have said, am happy to see who the Walsh and Glass come up with.

 

[Mattrox]

It's not about if, but how often. It was a regular feature of his game.

Can you show me how often this "regular feature occurred"?


And isn't this the same knock on Dangerfield?

 

[beartoo]

Players take inspiration in different forms.

A quiet word can be just as inspiring as a great piece of play.

Big Tick. The players seem to think he is the best leader at the club. Danger is on record saying so just a couple of weeks ago. Whether or not he will get the nod under Walsh I haven't a clue. I'd expect him to be best 21 if fully fit and recovered next year. VB is a much better footballer than many on here give him credit for.

 

[Elite Crow]

Players take inspiration in different forms.

A quiet word can be just as inspiring as a great piece of play.

Which player told you that?

 

[baldandbroke]

Just checking VB stats, which aren't the definitive guide of course:

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pc-adelaide-crows--nathan-van-berlo

You can definitely see the drop off from 2010/2011 in his numbers.

I'm not sure where his reputation for turn-overs comes from though, looking at the players in the top 100 averages for the last few seasons, VB rates a mention in the clangers for 2013 ... but there are some interesting trends among the other Adelaide players in regards to our disposal over the Sanderson reign:

2014

Effective Disposals
#26 Scott Thompson 18.4
#41 Brodie Smith 17.6
#45 Matthew Jaensch 17.4
#52 Rory Sloane 15.4
#60 Brad Crouch 16.9
#87 Brent Reilly 15.7
#93 Patrick Dangerfield 15.4

Clangers
#20 Scott Thompson 3.2
#27 Taylor Walker 3.1
#34 Patrick Dangerfield 3.0
#34 James Podsiadly 3.0
#34 Brent Reillly 3.0
#60 Brad Crouch 2.7
#86 Ricky Henderson 2.5

2013

Effective Disposals
#33 Brad Crouch 17.7
#44 Rory Sloane 17.3
#47 Scott Thompson 16.8
#59 Richard Douglas 16.3
#76 Brodie Smith 15.4
#99 Patrick Dangerfield 14.4

Clangers
#2 Taylor Walker 4.0
#3 Scott Thompson 3.8
#20 Patrick Dangerfield 3.2
#35 Nathan Van Berlo 3.0
#82 Tom Lynch 2.6

2012

Effective Disposals
#15 Scott Thompson 19.4
#48 Patrick Dangerfield 16.8
#80 Rory Sloane 15.4
#88 Brent Reilly 15.2

Clangers
#2 Scott Thompson 4.6
#35 Patrick Dangerfield 3.1
#59 Shaun McKernan 2.8
#86 Jason Porplyzia 2.6

Will be interesting to see what type of player Walsh sees as being our captain, whether he gives a damn about effective disposals / clangers as a leadership indicator or not?

 

[Bacon8]

Which player told you that?

It's a generalisation.

When I'm playing, it's words that inspire me. It's more mental than physical.

 

[Allefgib]

Good suggestion was made to pull out alot of posts and create a new thread about our first Captain under Walsh - here it is.
No need to keep posting in the Van Berlo announced as Captain thread.

 

[ftmch]

So, no you can't then.

Maybe check out the back end of 2011. Specifically, the games where Bickley was in charge.

But that's not evidence of him providing leadership in games when we needed a captain to do so. All you've done is call out a stretch of games where he actually resembled a starting 22 player.

In any case, that patch in the Bickley era was junk time in the context of the season. There were no critical games in that time which were vital in the context of our season where we desperately needed a captain to stand up and drag the team with him to the final siren. We had plenty of those those before the Bickley era in 2011, but I'm struggling to think of an instance where vB played this role for us in those games, when we really needed it.

Again, all you've inadvertently done is call out a patch of games when he actually played some decent footy. That people feel the need to point to that as justification of his captaincy - when really it's nothing more than the bare minimum we should be expecting of any first 22 player, let alone our captain - speaks volumes.

 

[dylan123]

Good suggestion was made to pull out alot of posts and create a new thread about our first Captain under Walsh - here it is.
No need to keep posting in the Van Berlo announced as Captain thread.

Messing with my head here bigfella!

Just posted on the Van Berlo thread, looked two posts above to see the last one was 2012, figured I was having a crack at what someone said about his 2011 season that was posted the next year.

Turns out they've all been moved here!

 

[dylan123]

So, no you can't then.

Maybe check out the back end of 2011. Specifically, the games where Bickley was in charge.

So you have to go all the way back to 2011 to see the last time he 'led' on the field?

 

[ftmch]

Can you show me how often this "regular feature occurred"?


And isn't this the same knock on Dangerfield?

Do you really want me to quantify it? It's an observed characteristic of his game. It's like asking how often does Sloaney take an inspirational grab. Or how often does Text kick accurately. Or how often did Nathan Basset throw his mouth-guard out in disgust. It's just a feature of their game.

 

[Bacon8]

Again, all you've inadvertently done is call out a patch of games when he actually played some decent footy. That people feel the need to point to that as justification of his captaincy - when really it's nothing more than the bare minimum we should be expecting of any first 22 player, let alone our captain - speaks volumes.

You both need to keep up.

I'm addressing "I'm honestly struggling to think of a game where I can say, 'bugger me, vB really changed the course of that game'."

There's probably some examples in 2012, but I can't sit here and recall every minute of every match. Just like you can't actually give me any specific examples of 1) poor leadership & 2) a turnover that led to a goal. You just want to sling mud, without backing it up.

So you have to go all the way back to 2011 to see the last time he 'led' on the field?

I'd love to give an example from 2014, I really would. I've stated before his first half of 2013 was poor.