Football / Coaching Department

[SaintLex]

I hope he buys a membership

 

[Defacto]

With Gil McLaughlin basically running our club along with Finnis I'm happy to trust this appointment. He won't get his hands on any contracts, will be facilitating new technology via the AIS in regards to fitness, management programmes and personal development.

well said brian. couldnt agree more.

 

[Defacto]

finnis said in his presser, that they will be appointing another assistant coach, to back fill the spot vacated by danny sexton (he was promoted into bevos role)

 

[Periphery]

finnis said in his presser, that they will be appointing another assistant coach, to back fill the spot vacated by danny sexton (he was promoted into bevos role)

I wonder if McKenna could be a good option?

 

[karaoke]

I wonder if McKenna could be a good option?

Sanderson?

 

[Dopey BJ]

Could someone with twitter tweet Warnie to see what he thinks of Cox's appointment, he would have a good perspective I think

 

[Dopey BJ]

Sanderson?

I for 1 hope not, reckon he's the full flog

 

[karaoke]

I for 1 hope not, reckon he's the full flog

Only stating that based on article yesterday stating Finnis wouldn't deny we'd spoken to him.

 

[Dopey BJ]

Only stating that based on article yesterday stating Finnis wouldn't deny we'd spoken to him.

Yeah I read that, if you can take a look at his B&F speech at the end of his 1st year (I think) it was absolutely cringe worthy, the crowd was laughing at him but he was being serious. Carrying on about all the coincidental reasons why the Crows were going to win the flag the next year

 

[hayes]

Don't listen to any other interviews just watch the video that Eli did with Jamie Cox. Actually asks questions that we'd like to hear answers to. Not sure what is in his past but doesn't seem related to anything he'll be doing now.

Sounds like he has a good idea of what it takes to become an elite athlete which is what we were after.

 

[ike2112]

Downside 1 = not from footy, so a bit strange to be a footy manager.
Upside 1 = still a bloody good sportsman, and he's not there to coach, but to do admin, that is transferable across any sports.

Downside 2 = Got fired for doing dodgy stuff with contracts.
Upside 2 = Only got fired for doing what everybody else was doing. He was merely following the culture and practice of the sport. Then when people decided that wasn't acceptable for the sport to do in the future, they used Cox as the fallguy. Funny thing is, up until that point, he'd probably have been fired if he HADN'T done all that stuff, because SA wouldn't have been able to compete with the rest of the comp who were doing it as well.

In short, who knows?

Pelchen dumped because we need someone more footy-focused rather than recruitment and dealings.

Person hired has less footy knowledge/experience than the person we removed from post.

 

[holllywood]

For the people questioning this appointment (which would be hard to really have a firm grasp on anyway), I would like to know what he has done in the past to make you question his appointment.

And then let me know how these past indiscretions mean he will be a poor choice as our General Manager of Football Performance.

Seems like a lot of people just adding 2 and 2 together to reach their conclusion without knowing the full story.

 

[hayes]

Could someone with twitter tweet Warnie to see what he thinks of Cox's appointment, he would have a good perspective I think

I'll give it a shot.

 

[ike2112]

Why did my posts get moved from the player recruitment thread, to football coaching department thread?
Whilst I wrote about the Saints staffing, it was in the context of one of the reasons why we are not an overly desirable destination for a potential recruit. Moving it here breaks the conversation up.

I'll say it again, since you've not discussed my posts about it in the Best 22 thread.

We effectively lost FOURTEEN of our 2013 Best 22 through most-or-all of 2014, PLUS got a new coach.

If we are in a rebuild, 2014 was the demolition year. We completely deconstructed our best-22, thanks to trade, FA, retirement and injury. Judging the health of our list going forward based on 2014 is like looking at the rubble of a bulldozed house and saying nobody can ever live there.

The 2015 best 22 will be massively more settled, and more experienced than the 2014 one was.

I didn't respond as I didn't have much to say. I also was trying to have the conversation in one place, which has backfired since a Mod seems to have split the posts up into another thread!
The best 22 threads frustrate me, as it encourages everyone to look at the list through "rose-tinted glasses". Doing the same last year, people said "we have so much competition for places, I can't fit everyone in" and took that as a positive. When in fact, we had mostly mediocre or unproven players, and it wouldn't take many injuries before people got games probably not on merit but through necessity. Looking at the 2013 version, someone named Dunell as their emergency FFS. You're saying now how poor our list depth was last year, but it'll be better this year. People said that 12-10 months ago too.

I felt you were really scraping the barrel when you started to suggest that Lee was best 22 in 2013, and didn't start 2014 in the team, so he was a loss to us and contributed to poor performance.
You're making it far more complicated than it is. Lee wasn't in the team DUE to poor performance - in fact, poor effort also judging by Richo's preseason and early-season comments.

The guys who have matured so far are not the type, or position, that will really influence games yet. Newnes and Webster have done well and are maturing into guaranteed starters. Dunstan too, who is very competitive on the inside.
But until a host of others mature and come good (Hickey/Longer, Bruce, Acres, Ross, White/Lee) and those peripheral kids we have start being able to have a good run in midfield (Wright, Billings, Eli, Savage, Newnes, Webster, Saad, Markworth, Murdoch all spoken about as being potential mids at least part-time, without barely playing any time there) then we aren't going to be very good.
There is a lot to be excited about for 2016-2017. Anyone getting excited about 2015 in terms of expected results, is a huge optimist.

 

[Persevering Saint]

Pelchen dumped because we need someone more footy-focused rather than recruitment and dealings.

Person hired has less footy knowledge/experience than the person we removed from post.

Wrong.

The reason specifically given for Pelchen going was that we needed somebody with a high performance background:

“However, following our end of season review, we agreed to make some changes to drive further development in our high performance programs across our Football Department.

“The highly competitive AFL landscape requires us to drive a program that combines bringing in and retaining the best players with uncompromising excellence in the development and performance of our team.”

http://www.saints.com.au/news/2014-10-21/chris-pelchen-to-depart-saints

October 21, 2014, the day Pelchen left.

Guess what Jamie Cox is an expert in.

 

[Persevering Saint]

I felt you were really scraping the barrel when you started to suggest that Lee was best 22 in 2013, and didn't start 2014 in the team, so he was a loss to us and contributed to poor performance.
You're making it far more complicated than it is. Lee wasn't in the team DUE to poor performance - in fact, poor effort also judging by Richo's preseason and early-season comments.

So, you're saying that 17 goals in 10 games from a young forward wasn't impressive. M'okay...

And you're saying that despite it being reported repeatedly that he'd had two shoulder reconstructions over the off-season, that was just poor form. Sure...

 

[King_Steele]

Eli Templeton welcomes Jamie Cox:

http://win-cdn220-is-3.se.bponlinew...16_Eli_Cox_interview_S_1443150913__799505.mp4

 

[sammm]

Could someone with twitter tweet Warnie to see what he thinks of Cox's appointment, he would have a good perspective I think

Now that's a good idea.

 

[Dopey BJ]

Now that's a good idea.

Why thankyou Mam

 

[ike2112]

So, you're saying that 17 goals in 10 games from a young forward wasn't impressive. M'okay...

And you're saying that despite it being reported repeatedly that he'd had two shoulder reconstructions over the off-season, that was just poor form. Sure...

It was a good sign. But you can't tell me that Tom Lee was a missing superstar and his (mythical) inavailability led our dire 2014 season.

Tom Lee played at Sandy week 1. He wasn't picked, according to Richo, because he had parts of his game to work on; in particular defensive effort/pressure.
I can't find the Richo comment, I'm thinking its in a member email so I'll look later, but here's the VFL feedback from early April
http://www.saints.com.au/news/2014-04-01/vfl-player-breakdown
By that point Lee had played 7 games (including NAB and VFL practice) and the prior week his fitness had been noted as no longer an issue having had a late preseason.

I'm not going to continue an argument over this. I'm saying we're last cos we're the worst team. You're convinced we're not that bad and we just briefly lost some leadership through injury.

 

[ike2112]

Wrong.

The reason specifically given for Pelchen going was that we needed somebody with a high performance background:



http://www.saints.com.au/news/2014-10-21/chris-pelchen-to-depart-saints

October 21, 2014, the day Pelchen left.

Guess what Jamie Cox is an expert in.

Fair enough, I got mixed up. So does have the sports science and sport development background, just not footy-specific.

 

[Persevering Saint]

It was a good sign. But you can't tell me that Tom Lee was a missing superstar and his (mythical) inavailability led our dire 2014 season.

Tom Lee played at Sandy week 1. He wasn't picked, according to Richo, because he had parts of his game to work on; in particular defensive effort/pressure.

I'm not going to continue an argument over this. I'm saying we're last cos we're the worst team. You're convinced we're not that bad and we just briefly lost some leadership through injury.

There you go again putting words in somebody's mouth. I'd put words in your mouth, but your foot is taking up too much room. I didn't call him a missing superstar. My point was that he was the 13th player out of the starting 22 at the end of the 2013 season. His absence is part of a cumulative problem, on top of players like Dal Santo, etc. He could be a nail in a horseshoe, but if 60% of the horse's equipment is also missing, then that one nail could be all the difference.

And again, he had two shoulder reconstructions over the break. Sure, he may have played Round 1 for Sandy, but that was for conditioning, not punishment.

 

[ike2112]

So you feel Lee is best 22 on merit? What about his numerous occasions throughout the year when his effort and impact just doesn't seem to be up to scratch? Don't get me wrong, don't think the coaches helped by making him play in the ruck, but I just don't think he's that good and I don't feel he works hard enough.
He strikes me as the sort of "huffy" type, where if things don't go his way, he packs it in. Instead of leading harder, he leads less. Ive never seen him in the flesh playing for Saints, but have seen him twice at Sandy, and both times frankly he looked bloody lazy.

Lets go through your list then and you tell me if I've misrepresented what you said (not intentional if I have, its how I've taken what you've said):

PS:
Firstly, we lost those who retired: 1, Kosi; 2, Milne; 3, Blake.

ME:
Kosi in 2013 was hopeless. Took more time to turn than an Airbus.
Milne missed parts of 2013 with all that was going on. One of my favourite ever players, unreplaceable really, but not a major influence by the end of 2013.
Blake wasn't playing AFL by second half of 2013, as we were as well playing others given his output level had dropped.

PS: Then we lost 4, Saad, to suspension.
Yes, although Saad was already having a more disappointing season compared to the previous.

PS: Then we lost 5, Dal Santo to FA.
I agree Dal was a loss. I wasn't keen on losing him. His moving in the end got us bonus Ruck cover (as well as future trade currency) in Longer, and let us get the Delaney deal over the line, so in the end it was probably worth it. But he was a leadership loss. His actual performance though in 2013 was not good - he'd reached the point in his career where he couldn't shake a tag.

PS: Then we lost 6, McEvoy to trade.
This hurt us. Yes I feel we got the better of that trade, in the long run, but McEvoy would have been at least some solidity for us in a year of turnover. So I'll agree with you here. To me the McEvoy deal was a deliberate step backwards, in order to take two or three steps forward in future.
But that deal needed done, as McEvoy was eternally frustrating in terms of his actual impact on games, and we got what seems to have been a pretty great deal for him.

PS: Then, due to early injury in 2014, we effectively lost: 7, Armitage; 8, Geary; 9, Steven; 10, Fisher; 11, Gilbert; 12, Roberton.
Armitage played 15 games, so we didn't miss him that much as he still played just over 2/3 of the season. One of the games he missed was the win vs Essendon. He wasn't able to help much prior to getting hurt in the Adelaide game. We missed him whilst he was out, especially by round 10.
Geary is my favourite player. I think we underestimate how much he gets those around him to lift their own performance. He own output isn't high, and personally I think it's a waste not having him being a pest in the midfield, but I agree we missed him.
Steven played 16 1/2 games. Reckon that in around 6 of those, he was carrying an injury. He never looked that great, it was his first year being guaranteed the tag, and he drifted in and out of games as a result. Was always going to happen, given Lenny and Dal (had he stayed) were no longer as damaging as their younger selves.
Fisher was always going to miss a chunk of time at season start. He ended up missing more than expected, but really, we shouldn't expect much from someone with that injury situation. Make plans without them, and when they're available, its a bonus.
Gilbert - really, are we counting on Gilbert? How on earth was a man who played 8 full games in 2013 and coming into the year hurt, a nailed-on player we were relying on for 2014? Anyone who relies on Gilbert is an idiot. Anything the man can produce now in terms of an AFL performance is a bonus.
Really liked Roberton's 2013. He was injured coming into 2014 and it was a niggling kind. He played the whole year either at Saints but mostly VFL. He didn't seem to play very well most of the year; the following link highlighting just one example of why he didn't deserve to be playing AFL:
http://www.truezebras.com/saints-in-vfl-round-11/

My point is that whilst players being out did hinder our season, it takes a very naive person to think that we won't have injuries in the best 22, given they're playing in the hardest games.
Our problem is not so much in who was missing, but in who we have to replace them. There's not many other clubs who would be putting Beau Maister, Sam Dunell, Terry Milera, TDL into their lineup after a couple injuries. I can't think of another club where they would play a Tom Simpkin as a forward - someone who, sadly, looks to be not tall enough to play KPD so they ask him to just be a nuisance in the forward line.

We'll be better not because a miracle happens and we get hardly any injuries, but when our list is able to handle injuries as we have better quality of depth.

 

[Defacto]

Pelchen dumped because we need someone more footy-focused rather than recruitment and dealings.

Person hired has less footy knowledge/experience than the person we removed from post.

Whilst he doesn't have football knowledge he has a strong sports science and mgmt background.

I've been saying a while id love someone from outside footy from the AIS at the club

Not sure your post is relevant tbh

 

[Big Mart]

17 goals in 10 games for a 22yo deep fwd who makes the most of his opportunities is nothing spectacular.

Reality was he average 9ppg 3.8marks (1CM) 1.7 goals and 1.5t
Not impressive by any means... And his numbers last year were worse

Remember
He, Milera, Maister, Shenton, Dunnell and Saad were all taken at 21 or older.
They were not 18yo draftees.