Footy Myths

[The_Reaper]

So at what point do we throw away history? Eagles entering? Name Change to AFL? Crows entering? GWS entering? North relocating?

League becoming national instead of a state league for start.

So 1987 or 1991. I'd nominate 1991

 

[SJ]

League becoming national instead of a state league for start.

So 1987 or 1991. I'd nominate 1991

1981: 12 Victorian teams, 0 interstate teams
1982: 11 Victorian teams, 1 interstate team
1987: 11 Victorian teams, 3 interstate teams
1991: 11 Victorian teams, 4 interstate teams
1995: 11 Victorian teams, 5 interstate teams
1997: 10 Victorian teams, 6 interstate teams
2011: 10 Victorian teams, 7 interstate teams
2012: 10 Victorian teams, 8 interstate teams
Future: ≤10 Victorian teams, ≥8 interstate teams

And you're drawing the line at 1987 or 1991? Madness.

 

[The_Reaper]

1981: 12 Victorian teams, 0 interstate teams
1982: 11 Victorian teams, 1 interstate team
1987: 11 Victorian teams, 3 interstate teams
1991: 11 Victorian teams, 4 interstate teams
1995: 11 Victorian teams, 5 interstate teams
1997: 10 Victorian teams, 6 interstate teams
2011: 10 Victorian teams, 7 interstate teams
2012: 10 Victorian teams, 8 interstate teams
Future: ≤10 Victorian teams, ≥8 interstate teams

And you're drawing the line at 1987 or 1991? Madness.

You don't think that the WAFL and the SANFL fully becoming feeder leagues is more notable?

Fremantle joining in 1995 is irrelevant. The VFL's dominance over the WAFL was cemented when West Coast joined

 

[Damon_3388]

Who really gives a s**t?

 

[SJ]

You don't think that the WAFL and the SANFL fully becoming feeder leagues is more notable?

Fremantle joining in 1995 is irrelevant. The VFL's dominance over the WAFL was cemented when West Coast joined

Yes it's notable.

But any line-drawing is arbitrary.

 

[The_Reaper]

Yes it's notable.

But any line-drawing is arbitrary.

Yeah. I'm happy for clubs to count all their VFL/AFL premierships as the one competition.

Because it is the one competition that went from an amateur suburban competition to a professional national competition.

I don't consider premierships won in the early years of the VFL to be particularly relevant to anyone except the supporters of those clubs though

 

[treefingers]

Come to Brisbane and pay $6 for a movie then

6 dollars in Melbourne too if you know where to look.

 

[didaksrightfoot]

Yeah. I'm happy for clubs to count all their VFL/AFL premierships as the one competition.

Because it is the one competition that went from an amateur suburban competition to a professional national competition.

I don't consider premierships won in the early years of the VFL to be particularly relevant to anyone except the supporters of those clubs though

But that applies to any sporting competition - and probably anything in history - we evolve and we get better at things (hopefully).

Uruguay have won 2 World Cups - at a time when football as a whole, and the world cup, was a very different level of competition. No-one is going to say that they are a better footballing nation than England/France/Spain - but Uruguayans have every right to be proud of their history.
--

As for VFL/AFL:
I am a West Aussie who supports the Pies... so I think I am someone who see's the validity of both sides of this argument.
You can use the date when the name was officially changed to the AFL, and I wouldn't particularly oppose that, but that is an arbitrary date, and as others have said above - doesn't take into account the decade of interstate expansion of the VFL prior to that.

And I think the key part of all of this really comes down to the fact that interstate teams joined the VFL - not the other way round. If victorian teams joined the SANFL or the WAFL, and one of those competitions became the AFL - then that competition's history would have effectively become the AFL's history... but that is not how it happened.
You can argue all you like about why it happened that way, but you can't argue that it did happen that way... winners write history books.

 

[Scotland]

The WA 'stadium deal' would be good for Victorian clubs.

 

[Collingwoodity]

Myth: Being young is better than being good.

Truth: Being good is better than being young.

 

[Scotland]

But that applies to any sporting competition - and probably anything in history - we evolve and we get better at things (hopefully).

Relevance is a point of view. Open era tennis, Olympic 100m sprint, Melbourne Cup - whatever, sports change over time. Some batter ranked 100 in the world today would wipe the floor with 1960s Rod Laver, but that doesn't devalue Laver's achievements.

The AFL is a bit of a special case. Right up until the 1980s there were 3 major state competitions and no national one. One of the three became the national one, the 2 others became feeder competitions and after a few evolutions the other now pretty much has the same structure also.

All anyone really needs to acknowledge is that the competition didn't start in 1990 when it changed name, it started in 1897, and that the competition changed its name for a reason, to recognise the structural change in the sporting landscape. A VFL/AFL premiership is still a VFL/AFL premiership regardless of when it was won or how many teams were in the competition. You can devalue the 1910 or 1920 flag as much as you can devalue an 'AFL-sponsored' Lions/Swans flag if it helps you sleep at night, it doesn't mean anything.

The only thing you can't do is call a VFL premier the premier of Australia. It's silly that the first AFL premier played in the exact same competition as the last VFL premier, but that doesn't mean you can simply say every VFL flag winner was the best team in the country - which is what AFL premier implies.

 

[Lethality]

That it was much easier to score in previous eras.

Average score in the 70s was 96 points.
Average score from 2000-2014 is 93 points.

Just half a goal per game, which is negligible, in fact less than the difference between this year and the last.

http://afltables.com/afl/teams/allteams/overall_margins.html

 

[footyfan1978]

That it was much easier to score in previous eras.

Average score in the 70s was 96 points.
Average score from 2000-2014 is 93 points.

Just half a goal per game, which is negligible, in fact less than the difference between this year and the last.

http://afltables.com/afl/teams/allteams/overall_margins.html

I been following football every season in the league since 1978.

Average team score in that time for home and away season has gone from highest of 112 points in 1982 to lowest 86 points in 2014.
The last six seasons that average team score has been highest of only 92 points per team and dropped to 86 this last season.

From 1978 to 1993 seasons it was 100 points or more, per team for 13 of those first 16 seasons I followed the footy in the league.

The six seasons of 1982 to 1987 it was over 100 every season with collective average of 105 points per team over that period.

2009 to 2014 it averages 92 points per team.

13 points difference per team for those two different periods.

Or 26 points per match. On average seeing 4 less goals per game for two different periods.
I think 82 to 87 was the height of the attacking period of the game. Meaning top sides more willing to attack and allow the opportunity for opposing team to get ball back off them if good enough. Now teams are coached not to take risks to same extent and keep ball off the opposing team. Also that period was before drafts and salary caps became the norm and a 12 team league.

 

[andrew coombs]

That it was much easier to score in previous eras.

Average score in the 70s was 96 points.
Average score from 2000-2014 is 93 points.

Just half a goal per game, which is negligible, in fact less than the difference between this year and the last.

http://afltables.com/afl/teams/allteams/overall_margins.html

VFL football was played on winter bog heaps for much of the 70"s and 80"s. Turf wickets and poor drainage at all grounds barring VFL park presented playing surfaces that have bear no resemblance to today's pristine conditions. If footy was played today on 2014 grounds in the same style it was contested in say, 1978, the average scores would be up around 125-150 points agame.

 

[Lethality]

I been following football every season in the league since 1978.

Average team score in that time for home and away season has gone from highest of 112 points in 1982 to lowest 86 points in 2014.
The last six seasons that average team score has been highest of only 92 points per team and dropped to 86 this last season.

From 1978 to 1993 seasons it was 100 points or more, per team for 13 of those first 16 seasons I followed the footy in the league.

The six seasons of 1982 to 1987 it was over 100 every season with collective average of 105 points per team over that period.
.

Yes there are peaks and troughs but no massive trends towards lower or high scoring in recent decades. The 2014 season was low scoring but it wasn't being compared to modern seasons for lowest scores, we had to go all the way back to the 1968 season which was the lowest scoring year before this one.

So that seems to further indicate that it's a myth that scoring has only dried up in recent times.

In the end 2014 ended up being higher scoring than the 1968 season anyway.

2014 average score 86
1968 average score 81

 

[footyfan1978]

Yes there are peaks and troughs but no massive trends towards lower or high scoring in recent decades. After all even the 2014 season was being compared to the 1968 season which was the lowest scoring year before this one at one stage. In the end 2014 ended up being higher scoring than that one.

2014 average score 86
1968 average score 81

I think the current era , in scoring terms is like the 1960's. Scoring just not as high in recent seasons as most of 80's and early 90's. Attacking footy was the theme of late 70's to early 90's then it has slowly but surely swung towards defensive footy as the theme. The most extreme example of defensive team being Ross Lyon coached teams. The most extreme attacking teams probably the late 80's and early 90's Geelong sides coached by Malcolm Blight. Interesting Geelong never won the flag with that team and so far Ross Lyon also not coached a premiership team with the defensive extreme.

 

[footyfan1978]

VFL football was played on winter bog heaps for much of the 70"s and 80"s. Turf wickets and poor drainage at all grounds barring VFL park presented playing surfaces that have bear no resemblance to today's pristine conditions. If footy was played today on 2014 grounds in the same style it was contested in say, 1978, the average scores would be up around 125-150 points agame.

Great point about difference in playing conditions.

 

[footyfan1978]

1982 season leading goalkickers with number of games played and averages per game

103 Malcolm Blight NM 20 5.15 53 Bernie Quinlan FI 21 2.52
82 Simon Beasley FO 21 3.90 52 Mick Conlan FI 22 2.36
77 Gerard Healy ME 21 3.67 49 Simon Madden ES 21 2.33
76 Mark Jackson ME 19 4.00 47 Michael Byrne ME/HW 23 2.04
74 Leigh Matthews HW 22 3.36 47 Peter Bosustow CA 24 1.96
71 Brian Taylor RI 15 4.73 46 Wayne Otway ES 22 2.09
61 Ross Ditchburn CA 13 4.69 46 Jim Edmond FO 21 2.19
60 Gary Buckenara HW 25 2.40 46 Rodney Ashman CA 24 1.92
58 Kevin Bartlett RI 23 2.52 45 Mark Scott SK 12 3.75
58 Peter Daicos CW 21 2.76 45 Tony Morwood SY 20 2.25


1983
116 Bernie QuinlanFI24 4.83 43Gary BuckenaraHW 21 2.05
79Leigh MatthewsHW 22 3.59 42Mark WilliamsCW22 1.91
69Simon BeasleyFO20 3.45 42Michael MoncrieffHW 12 3.50
64Terry DaniherES26 2.46 42Ken JudgeHW18 2.33
51Mick ConlanFI20 2.55 42Stephen CoppingES18 2.33
49Michael RichardsonCW21 2.33 41Stephen McCannNM24 1.71
48Craig BraddySY21 2.29 41Mark JacksonSK10 4.10
44Phil KrakouerNM24 1.83 41Kym HodgemanNM221.86
44Jim KrakouerNM18 2.44 41Jim EdmondFO18 2.28
43Ken HunterCA22 1.95 40Wayne SchimmelbuschNM21 1.90

1984 season
105Bernie QuinlanFI 23 4.57 51Kelvin TempletonME 16 3.19
77Tony Lockett SK 20 3.85 51Mick ConlanFI 16 3.19
77Leigh MatthewsHW 24 3.21 50Dermott BreretonHW 25 2.00
74Mark JacksonGE 19 3.89 48Terry DaniherES 22 2.18
63Paul SalmonES 13 4.85 46Peter CurranHW 23 2.00
63Ken JudgeHW 24 2.63 39Warwick CapperSY 15 2.60
61Simon BeasleyFO 18 3.39 39Justin MaddenCA 22 1.77
61Brian TaylorRI 16 3.81 38Donald McDonaldNM 21 1.81
55Warren RalphCA 14 3.93 38Ken HunterCA 18 2.11
53Mark WilliamsCW 23 2.30 36Michael RoachRI 19 1.89

1985 season
#PlayerTeamsGMAve.#PlayerTeamsGMAve.
105Simon BeasleyFO 25 4.20 48Mark HarveyES 24 2.00
84Bernie QuinlanFI 22 3.82 48Mark MaclureCA 20 2.40
82Gary AblettGE 20 4.10 46Paul Vander HaarES 21 2.19
80Michael RoachRI 17 4.71 46Roger MerrettES 23 2.00
80Brian TaylorCW 21 3.81 45Warwick CapperSY 14 3.21
79Tony LockettSK 21 3.76 44Bernie EvansSY 19 2.32
58Dermott BreretonHW 25 2.32 44Michael RichardsonCW 21 2.10
56Leigh MatthewsHW 21 2.67 42Andrew BewsGE 22 1.91
51Les BamblettFO 24 2.13 41Terry DaniherES 17 2.41
49Stephen JamesRI 18 2.72 40Brian WilsonME 17 2.35

1986 season
#PlayerTeamsGMAve.#PlayerTeamsGMAve.
100Brian TaylorCW20 5.00 52Bernie QuinlanFI 17 3.06
92Warwick CapperSY 24 3.83 50Michael TurnerGE 21 2.38
88Simon BeasleyFO 22 4.00 47Alan EzardES 23 2.04
77Jason DunstallHW 22 3.50 46Paul SalmonES 21 2.19
65Gary AblettGE 15 4.33 45Mick ConlanFI 24 1.88
62Richard OsborneFI 25 2.48 44Dermott BreretonHW 21 2.10
62Michael RoachRI 20 3.10 44Tony MorwoodSY 22 2.00
62Stephen KernahanCA 25 2.48 44Mark MaclureCA 20 2.20
60Tony LockettSK 18 3.33 36Peter CurranHW 19 1.89
55Gary BuckenaraHW 25 2.20 35Greg HealyME 17 2.06

1987 season
#PlayerTeamsGMAve.#PlayerTeamsGMAve.
117Tony LockettSK 22 5.32 49Michael TurnerGE 19 2.58
103Warwick CapperSY 23 4.48 47Robert FlowerME 20 2.35
94Jason Dunstall HW 24 3.92 47Doug BarwickFI 16 2.94
73Simon Beasley FO 21 3.48 46Tony MorwoodSY 23 2.00
73Stephen Kernahan CA 24 3.04 44Peter CurranHW 26 1.69
64Dermott Brereton HW 23 2.78 43Paul SalmonES 22 1.95
62Richard Osborne FI 21 2.95 43Michael RoachRI 16 2.69
62Bruce Lindner GE 18 3.44 43Phil KrakouerNM 21 2.05
60Brian Taylor CW 18 3.33 42Gary BuckenaraHW 17 2.47
53Gary Ablett GE 17 3.12 39David WilliamsME 19 2.05

2014 season
#PlayerTeamsGMAve.#PlayerTeamsGMAve.
79Lance FranklinSY 22 3.59 49Nick RiewoldtSK 22 2.23
75Jarryd RougheadHW 23 3.26 49Hayden BallantyneFR 20 2.45
68Tom HawkinsGE 24 2.83 46Matthew PavlichFR 22 2.09
66Jay SchulzPA 25 2.64 46Tom LynchGC 22 2.09
61Josh KennedyWC 20 3.05 45Lindsay ThomasNM 23 1.96
61Jack RiewoldtRI 23 2.65 43Chad WingardPA 24 1.79
58Jack GunstonHW 23 2.52 42Robbie GrayPA 25 1.68
57Luke BreustHW 25 2.28 40Josh JenkinsAD 20 2.00
51Eddie BettsAD 22 2.32 39Travis ClokeCW 20 1.95
50Drew PetrieNM 25 2.00 39Jack DarlingWC 22 1.77

 

[the croucher]

Myth: Cyril Gove jockey, footballer, boxer, all on 29 May 1915
Truth: rode Menthe to 3rd place in race on flat [not hurdle race as claimed by AFL historian], then played for Essendon v Sth Melbourne at East Melbourne [not Lake Oval claim by AFL], was okay in match but nowhere near BOG or near it [as claimed by AFL] (hurt hand partway through match), DID NOT have a boxing match that night [as claimed by AFL]. Indeed I cannot find any reference to him ever being in a competitive boxing bout.

 

[Lethality]

1982 season leading goalkickers with number of games played and averages per game

The elimination of the full-forward position sees lower individual scores for some players. Roughead in another era would be a stay at home forward and kick tons.

 

[footyfan1978]

The elimination of the full-forward position sees lower individual scores for some players. Roughead in another era would be a stay at home forward and kick tons.

Not so much the elimination of full forward position. More a case of flooding the backline being more the norm since around mid 90's I think. A lots of forwards find they are not on their own with their direct opponent now. Not just the nominated full forward. Having said that, I daresay the Carlton premierships teams of 79 to 82 that won 3 flags did not really have a full forward either. Ditchburn in 82 came along but then he did not really feature in grand final so full forwards are not a feature of every team ,even in past eras.
1993 season the average per team was 105. Serious gun forwards Lockett, Ablett and Dunstall still around then. From 1994 onwards it has dropped to 94 average in season 94,
94 per team in 1995, 93 per team in 1996. By then flooding was being talked about far more often. 1997 dropped further to 90 per per team. It only once ever reached 100 points per team average or more since 1993 season. In season 2000 when it was 103 points per team.

I also sense the league expanding from 12 team, to 14 teams to 16 teams and now 18 has had some impact on style of team play and game plans. Clearly with talent spread thinner for each team and even more interchange players it has some impact on how coaches decide to train their teams to win. The chances of a team having a number of real guns in one team dominate the game plan style I think is reduced. The stars are spread around more clubs and therefore less in the top teams than before drafts, salary cap and more clubs became involved. I think team game plan is more important than ever due to fact no club will ever be able to create a true super team.

Just an opinion or sense of my own from watching the same league in my time. This is not a fact as such. IMO, the game plan is certainly been more inclined to be retaining possession of the ball than kick it forward in attacking style and backing your players to simply be better one on one. I think that was a big part of Carlton team of 1982 and Essendon 1985 teams that were truly super in my eyes and in that period when scoring was higher in general. Those teams had supreme confidence they had the most talent. Why would you play keepings off as the main game plan when you can trust most of your guys will beat the other players on on one? They kicked it to contests more as expected they would win contests if they needed to. They also kicked to players on their own too but they were not coached to avoid contests which is the norm now. There was no salary caps then. Coaches know the teams are more even now so you cannot afford to attack and trust your players are better one on one when it is clear it will be more even across the league. Holding onto the ball, chipping it around rather than attack at all costs is what happens so much more. Also teams are coached to tackle so much more than attacking skills.
I however still think the cycle will change again at some stage. When and where, not sure but will be interesting to see a change in trend again.

 

[Lethality]

Not so much the elimination of full forward position. More a case of flooding the backline being more the norm since around mid 90's I think.

I disagree since the drop-off in key forwards has been bigger than the drop-off in total scoring.

 

[footyfan1978]

I disagree since the drop-off in key forwards has been bigger than the drop-off in total scoring.

I don't disagree that there are less gun key forwards. The odd true full forward still existed not long ago like Lloyd and Fevola. I don't think the calibre of key forwards exist right at the moment to dominate with bags of goals often. I also do not disagree Roughy could kick more goals if game plan was adjusted. (Roughy himself is more a centre half forward in any case.)
I daresay even Ross Lyon himself might have a subtle change in game plan going forward if he had a man mountain like Lockett that can kick well was on his list. But I don't see that type of gun existing right now. There are more factors in drop off in team scoring than just a few speculated on here by any of us. I think there are quite a few factors but mostly it is simply the game styles teams are coached to stick too.

 

[dickballsack]

Who really gives a s**t?

Spot on. I'm still baffled as to why punters feel the need to discredit or rank flags from clubs. Winning one in any senior comp is bloody tough and anyone that's played, coached or even supported a club through to that ultimate success and has experienced the stunning feeling that comes with that achievement could care less.

 

[Damon_3388]

1993 season the average per team was 105. Serious gun forwards Lockett, Ablett and Dunstall still around then. From 1994 onwards it has dropped to 94 average in season 94,
94 per team in 1995, 93 per team in 1996. By then flooding was being talked about far more often. 1997 dropped further to 90 per per team. It only once ever reached 100 points per team average or more since 1993 season. In season 2000 when it was 103 points per team.

Wasn't the length of quarters shortened by 5 minutes (from 25 minutes plus time on, to 20 minutes plus time on) in 1994 too? Would explain scores suddenly lowering from that year onwards as much as anything else.