Strategy FORWARD STRUCTURE BIG 3 OR BIG 2?

[mopsy]

3 months ago people were saying the exact opposite
Not me though

Yes im one of those people. I have to concede he has played a few good games lately with his latest game excellent. By the way that game was mainly against a 2nd game 89kg junior. This has happened in the past. Trouble with Tyrone is he has shown an inability to maintain any sort of decent standard.

Needless to say a small period of reaching a good standard has never ever won me over. The real trick is playing to a high level CONSISTENTLY, To a small degree he has narrowed the gap between his best and worst but imo his worst still happens too often and it is very poor.

I suppose i'm in the camp where you think Leopards don't ever truly change their spots, not after a certain amount of time. Tyrone has a few bridges to mend and a lot of really good footy in front of him to win me back. Here's hoping . If he can play to a consistent high level against a quality opponent and play a proper kp role then i will jump on board. Sometimes players just click i hope with Vickers this is what has happened, i suppose in the next 12 18 months we will find out.Three words sums up my view on him. Still not sold.

 

[DrMike]

Yes im one of those people. I have to concede he has played a few good games lately with his latest game excellent. By the way that game was mainly against a 2nd game 89kg junior. This has happened in the past. Trouble with Tyrone is he has shown an inability to maintain any sort of decent standard.

Needless to say a small period of reaching a good standard has never ever won me over. The real trick is playing to a high level CONSISTENTLY, To a small degree he has narrowed the gap between his best and worst but imo his worst still happens too often and it is very poor.

I suppose i'm in the camp where you think Leopards don't ever truly change their spots, not after a certain amount of time. Tyrone has a few bridges to mend and a lot of really good footy in front of him to win me back. Here's hoping . If he can play to a consistent high level against a quality opponent and play a proper kp role then i will jump on board. Sometimes players just click i hope with Vickers this is what has happened, i suppose in the next 12 18 months we will find out.Three words sums up my view on him. Still not sold.

Consistency isn't an issue for Vickery, game time is an issue for Vickery

 

[Baudelaire]

Both work. It depends on weather and opposition I think.

 

[mopsy]

Consistency isn't an issue for Vickery, game time is an issue for Vickery

your right he has been consistent, consistently ordinary.Just my opinion.

Statistically he has been pretty much the same right across his career. His best game statistically was last week and by some margin. It was also hios best game for the club imo.
Weather he plays 20 games in a season or 12 he has by and large been pretty much the same with the odd spike and the odd slump.
Statistics dont really show the complaints that people have had of him.
Weather he kicks 6 goals or one its about all the other areas of his game. In fact i would say he has consistently found a way to kick goals, it has been the only real saving grace to his game a lot of time.

As i said i'm not sold and i wont be until he actually finds good consistency, i've seen the little purple patches before. He needs to prove he can play well at the level most of the time as far as im concerned. Right at this very moment hes travelling nicely lets see and hope it stays that way and actually is something more than a short purple patch.

 

[CotchIsKing]

I am convinced we need a big 3 but in my view it is a big 3 in full time forward threats rather than necessarily 3 talls.

Having said this a few times over the years, maybe for different reasons, size is not everything.

It is about having sufficient firepower up forward. Having a static setup of 3 talls could get far too predictable.

We are blessed to have mids, predominantly Lids and Dusty, but also Cotch who can legitimately work through and play deep forward. All three of these guys play tall in their marking capacity, as does Lennon. There are 4 guys of 188, 187, 185 and 188 who play a role forward but need to be able to roll through the midfield/half back at times. But these guys, along with the other mids (Edwards, Grigg, McIntosh, Ellis, Ellis C, etc) need to be the goal kicking cream. The ones who add 5-10 between every week to push us to having a benchmark of 15 goals++ a week.

What I see is we need to have 3 full time (or close enough) forwards who each kick 40 to 50+ every year. Jack and, given his current form, Tyrone are 2 pillars who fill this role and we have some younger guys coming through who could fill in or play a 3rd tall forward if that set up is right for a particular opposition, otherwise, or as well as, we could have a small/medium forward specialist. As long as they are a true 30-40 plus goal kicker (or a couple collectively playing the role). Someone who kicks 2+ far more often than he kicks 1. Is that Lloyd? Is it Griff? I am not sure. Maybe but maybe not. Very happy to find another option if that is the right way forward.

I think the assumed culling of the sub will have an impact on the way teams can structure up and be beneficial for teams with more players who can play different roles.

So I don't see this as a size discussion, it is about a capacity to execute the required role.

 

[Dr Tigris]

I am convinced we need a big 3 but in my view it is a big 3 in full time forward threats rather than necessarily 3 talls.

Having said this a few times over the years, maybe for different reasons, size is not everything.

It is about having sufficient firepower up forward. Having a static setup of 3 talls could get far too predictable.

We are blessed to have mids, predominantly Lids and Dusty, but also Cotch who can legitimately work through and play deep forward. All three of these guys play tall in their marking capacity, as does Lennon. There are 4 guys of 188, 187, 185 and 188 who play a role forward but need to be able to roll through the midfield/half back at times. But these guys, along with the other mids (Edwards, Grigg, McIntosh, Ellis, Ellis C, etc) need to be the goal kicking cream. The ones who add 5-10 between every week to push us to having a benchmark of 15 goals++ a week.

What I see is we need to have 3 full time (or close enough) forwards who each kick 40 to 50+ every year. Jack and, given his current form, Tyrone are 2 pillars who fill this role and we have some younger guys coming through who could fill in or play a 3rd tall forward if that set up is right for a particular opposition, otherwise, or as well as, we could have a small/medium forward specialist. As long as they are a true 30-40 plus goal kicker (or a couple collectively playing the role). Someone who kicks 2+ far more often than he kicks 1. Is that Lloyd? Is it Griff? I am not sure. Maybe but maybe not. Very happy to find another option if that is the right way forward.

I think the assumed culling of the sub will have an impact on the way teams can structure up and be beneficial for teams with more players who can play different roles.

So I don't see this as a size discussion, it is about a capacity to execute the required role.

This is where McBean can potentially fit in. If he can play the KPF role, the crumber role and get out into the midfield he would work very well with JR and TV. But then he has to get into the firsts first. We've got an abundance of KPFs, some great midfielder forwards, and Lennon and Knights that play the medium forward well. I sort of feel that if we can get it right our forward line could become dynamic. This season it have just been jogging along - carried by the midfield and defense.

 

[SunshineBoy]

Consistency isn't an issue for Vickery, game time is an issue for Vickery

You're our brown bear on this board

 

[SunshineBoy]

McBean, McBean, McBean. He better be bloody awesome with all the wraps get us getting, might be the next j post

 

[tigs2010]

Forward 2. Play the extra mid which allows us to use our biggest weapon which is the mid sized FF in Lids, Martin and Cotch. No other team can do that IMO.

 

[SunshineBoy]

Forward 2. Play the extra mid which allows us to use our biggest weapon which is the mid sized FF in Lids, Martin and Cotch. No other team can do that IMO.

I don't mind lids and dusty but Cotchin playing forward leaves me cold with his kicking for goal

 

[DrMike]

You're our brown bear on this board

I'll never replace Ron The Bear

 

[SunshineBoy]

I'll never replace Ron The Bear

I didn't want to wake him it's winter he is hibernating

 

[DrMike]

your right he has been consistent, consistently ordinary.Just my opinion.

Statistically he has been pretty much the same right across his career. His best game statistically was last week and by some margin. It was also hios best game for the club imo.
Weather he plays 20 games in a season or 12 he has by and large been pretty much the same with the odd spike and the odd slump.
Statistics dont really show the complaints that people have had of him.
Weather he kicks 6 goals or one its about all the other areas of his game. In fact i would say he has consistently found a way to kick goals, it has been the only real saving grace to his game a lot of time.

As i said i'm not sold and i wont be until he actually finds good consistency, i've seen the little purple patches before. He needs to prove he can play well at the level most of the time as far as im concerned. Right at this very moment hes travelling nicely lets see and hope it stays that way and actually is something more than a short purple patch.

Vickery was the highest rated player of the round across all teams, and it was easily his best game of his career. His second half against Sydney this year would be next but it was only for a half. And this might surprise you but his job as a forward is to kick goals, that he has consistently found a way to do that means he's pretty good at his job. However, for the team to go to the next level he needs to offer more than that like he has done the previous two weeks, and back it up every week. Basically you're wrong in your perception of him but right in what he needs to do.

I posted this in the other thread:

He has kicked 24.7 in his 12 games this year, kicking four goals against Gold Coast and six against Collingwood in the past two rounds.

He continues to maximise his chances at goal, ranked by Champion Data as the third-most accurate shot at goal behind Tory Dickson and Luke Breust.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...with-rival-clubs/story-fnp04d70-1227500173494

"Ordinary" as you put it, means he is "average". Given there are lets say 720 players in the competition (18x40, didn't include rookies), this puts Vickery in the 1st percentile. I'm not sure where your cut off would be, but that makes Vickery "elite" at kicking for goal.

 

[mopsy]

How did you rate his game this week.
A typical ordinary Vickery game which is very much the norm.

Kicked two cheap goals in two minutes, then proceeded to do little else.
Chocolates to boiled lollies.
Gone from a 21 disposal 6 goal game with a real good work rate and attack at the ball. To an 8 disposal game where he kicks two cheapies in two minutes and theres little else to his game.
His first goal is typical of how he plays. Playing from behind could not get to the contest in time and the ball fell over the back into his lap.
Its one thing dominating against undersized second game players , it is certainly another performing against a decent opponent.

As i acknowledged in my other post, the one saving grace to his game the last few seasons is the fact he has managed to snag some goals. Through his career he has mostly always managed to kick a goal or two each week. Take his two minute purple patch out this week where he kicked two goals then ask yourself what is left.
Imo not a lot.

I thought our two key forwards were pretty well held. JR didnt kick a goal and had to scrap hard for ever kick he got. TV got two goals in a short space of time and struggled other wise.

 

[Tango67]

Tough night for a big guy? How did Jack go?..

 

[_RT_]

How did you rate his game this week.
A typical ordinary Vickery game which is very much the norm.

Kicked two cheap goals in two minutes, then proceeded to do little else.
Chocolates to boiled lollies.
Gone from a 21 disposal 6 goal game with a real good work rate and attack at the ball. To an 8 disposal game where he kicks two cheapies in two minutes and theres little else to his game.
His first goal is typical of how he plays. Playing from behind could not get to the contest in time and the ball fell over the back into his lap.
Its one thing dominating against undersized second game players , it is certainly another performing against a decent opponent.

As i acknowledged in my other post, the one saving grace to his game the last few seasons is the fact he has managed to snag some goals. Through his career he has mostly always managed to kick a goal or two each week. Take his two minute purple patch out this week where he kicked two goals then ask yourself what is left.
Imo not a lot.

I thought our two key forwards were pretty well held. JR didnt kick a goal and had to scrap hard for ever kick he got. TV got two goals in a short space of time and struggled other wise.

Game started in rain, which made conditions ordinary for tall forwards to have a big impact and yet Vickery from limited chances kicked 2 goals, both when we were under the pump and needed someone to step up mind you and you're bagging him. Given the conditions last night what did you expect from Vickery? Surely it wasn't another half a dozen goals, if it was you're kidding yourself. If it was for him to play his role and make the most of his opportunities when they presented then I'm not sure what you're complaining about because that is exactly what he did.

 

[DrMike]

How did you rate his game this week.
A typical ordinary Vickery game which is very much the norm.

Kicked two cheap goals in two minutes, then proceeded to do little else.
Chocolates to boiled lollies.
Gone from a 21 disposal 6 goal game with a real good work rate and attack at the ball. To an 8 disposal game where he kicks two cheapies in two minutes and theres little else to his game.
His first goal is typical of how he plays. Playing from behind could not get to the contest in time and the ball fell over the back into his lap.
Its one thing dominating against undersized second game players , it is certainly another performing against a decent opponent.

As i acknowledged in my other post, the one saving grace to his game the last few seasons is the fact he has managed to snag some goals. Through his career he has mostly always managed to kick a goal or two each week. Take his two minute purple patch out this week where he kicked two goals then ask yourself what is left.
Imo not a lot.

I thought our two key forwards were pretty well held. JR didnt kick a goal and had to scrap hard for ever kick he got. TV got two goals in a short space of time and struggled other wise.

2 goals, set 2 more up
That's 40% of our goals kicked on the day
Name one player that contributed more to our scoreboard?

 

[mopsy]

Ordinary to average game you blokes can talk him up all you like. It was a typical Vickery game as well.
Not sure about you blokes but imo there are SOME categories that breaks down a game of footy some are more relevant than others to depending on the role or roles a player does.

Possessions - Kicks, handballs, disposals, uncontested possessions, contested possessions, effective disposals and clangers.
Just 8 disposals three of which were clangers. Not good enough imo. This is a bloke who gets short stints around the ground so is freed up a bit.Needs to get his hands on the ball a bit more imo

Marks - marks, contested marks, marks inside 50.
Had 3 marks for the game, one contested and two inside 50. For a 200cm key forward probably the most important area to look at. What doesnt get shown is how often a bloke hits a pack and competes in the air. Or how often a player simply works up at the ball. Considering the conditions he was okay nothing more.


Stoppages - Hit outs, clearances, centre clearances, stoppages, rebound 50s.
Barely bothered the stats here. Most concerning was the low 4 hit outs. We were beaten in the ruck and they didnt have a recognised ruckman.
Poor imo. I simply would not play him at centre bounce downs it is evident he is in protection mode.

General play
Tackles, one percenters, bounces, inside 50s.
was serviceable in this area. Laid 4 tackles and had a few one percenters, also had three inside 50s.
Both as a ruckman and as a forward you expect good output in these areas.

Scoring.
goals, behinds, goal assists, accuracy.
Kicked two goals and was a part of another he also kicked straight making the most of his two opportunities.
cant complain about kicking two goals. How he got em maybe.

Time on ground
90%
Cant say his time was limited.

To finish. Of the four key forwards on the ground i rated his overall game last of the four.
When in the ruck he still plays scared and when forward he plays from behind way too much and just doesn't get involved enough.He may present as a tough guy but he is timid for want of a better way to say it.

I know the conditions were tough especially early but i certainly expect more from what is now an experienced and mature player.
It was a typical Vickery game, by which i mean today is more like the norm rather than an exception.
People may take this post as bagging the bloke, my opinion on him has hardly changed in the whole time he has been at the club.
I am still hoping after 7 years he has turned things around, instead of being able to categorically say he has finally arrived.

 

[Livonski]

2 goals, set 2 more up
That's 40% of our goals kicked on the day
Name one player that contributed more to our scoreboard?

Yep, drilled one onto Lids chest. Trapped it in contested traffic and pumped out a 10m handball to Sheds.

Like how "Take out his 2 minute purple patch..."
How about, "Who took the game by the the throat and drilled goals when others were shanking left, right and centre?"

FFS mopsy you're torturing an argument there old boy.

 

[DrMike]

snip

A lot of words but you didn't answer my question

Basically your argument is Vickery is crap because imaginary player is better

 

[Livonski]

"People may take this post as bagging the bloke..."

Noooooo, not at all.

 

[mopsy]

A lot of words but you didn't answer my question

Basically your argument is Vickery is crap because imaginary player is better

we went inside 50 64 times and Vickery got involved in scoring three times. What a great game.

What i said was his game was ordinary even though he managed two very cheap easy goals. because that was what it was. I also backed that statement up with statistical evidence.
Not sure your being genuine with comments like imaginary players being better. DO you want to debate his overall game and not just focus on a couple of cheap goals or would you rather try and be disingenuous.

What is clearly evident when everything is considered is last week was an aberration and this week is more like the norm. In fact every single stat you can get your hands on supports that.
Last week to this week is Indeed chocolates to boiled lollies.
Most on here would bag Hookers game and for that matter Danihers yet IMO both had better games as key forwards. So did Jack and he didnt manage a goal.
I think you need to realise there is much more to the game nowadays than pinching a couple of cheap goals.

So you rate Vickery good for you. Im sorry for not being on the same page.For me Vickery has an awful lot to prove and a hell of a lot of consistency and improvement to find.
By the way you didnt answer my question. How did you rate Vickerys game.

 

[DrMike]

we went inside 50 64 times and Vickery got involved in scoring three times. What a great game.

That's just not true. Your "statistical evidence" is factually wrong, which you say is the foundation of your argument, making your argument wrong.

I stopped reading your other post so didn't see your question. I think if someone can't get their message across succinctly then they're just using words to cover up that their argument isn't actually that good.

Vickery was rated as the 10th best player on ground, another fault with your argument.

He also had the equal highest goals for our team in conditions that are not good for tall forwards, that you don't even consider this has an impact shows another fault in your argument.

Vickery wasn't BOG, he didn't perform his best game of his career, but one thing he did do was kick goals and set more up. If he does this every week he gets games and you'll just have to get over your blind hate.

 

[_RT_]

That's just not true. Your "statistical evidence" is factually wrong, which you say is the foundation of your argument, making your argument wrong.

I stopped reading your other post so didn't see your question. I think if someone can't get their message across succinctly then they're just using words to cover up that their argument isn't actually that good.

Vickery was rated as the 10th best player on ground, another fault with your argument.

He also had the equal highest goals for our team in conditions that are not good for tall forwards, that you don't even consider this has an impact shows another fault in your argument.

Vickery wasn't BOG, he didn't perform his best game of his career, but one thing he did do was kick goals and set more up. If he does this every week he gets games and you'll just have to get over your blind hate.

FFS Mike, stop bringing facts into it, just clouds the issue.

 

[DrMike]

FFS Mike, stop bringing facts into it, just clouds the issue.