Game 3 NAB challenge v Pies @ Etihad 7:10pm Saturday 21st

[Dazb86]

Severely disagree, Macrae is at least the equal of Wines and has been playing in a far worse side.

I think Wines would have played well in any side. His position isn't really reliant on other players feeding him the ball.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Is that coz he got knocked out the other night ?

Yep; Grant was the one that flew back into JJ and knocked him out.

 

[Pannalstaroz]

Severely disagree, Macrae is at least the equal of Wines and has been playing in a far worse side.

That's fine. But you're in the strong minority. Macrae is a star, no doubt, and I prefer the silky skills he has over the bullocking of Wines, but he has been a star in a great team. If you went to 99% of the footy public, they'd have him in front of Jack. But Jack will be a star for us.

 

[fronkalicious]

Wines and Macrae are neck and neck, but wines gets the press because he plays in a top 4 team. Both beasts.

Loved how Macrae was dirty at running 2nd in the B&F last year........in his second year. The kid is just a killer.

 

[immortalmike]

I think Wines would have played well in any side. His position isn't really reliant on other players feeding him the ball.

That may or may not be true but facts as they are have him and Macrae at roughly the exact same output, with Wines getting a little more inside ball and Jack getting more of the ball overall.
Also further in Macrae's defence he was tagged 4-8 times last year, Wines hasn't really been tagged as yet.

That's fine. But you're in the strong minority. Macrae is a star, no doubt, and I prefer the silky skills he has over the bullocking of Wines, but he has been a star in a great team. If you went to 99% of the footy public, they'd have him in front of Jack. But Jack will be a star for us.

99% of the public are morons. Have you listened to the radio!?

 

[Pannalstaroz]

That may or may not be true but facts as they are have him and Macrae at roughly the exact same output, with Wines getting a little more inside ball and Jack getting more of the ball overall.
Also further in Macrae's defence he was tagged 4-8 times last year, Wines hasn't really been tagged as yet.


99% of the public are morons. Have you listened to the radio!?

Haha yes, but you're still in the "moron minority"

 

[immortalmike]

Haha yes, but you're still in the "moron minority"

Seriously though. Objectively I struggle to see how Wines is ahead of Macrae in anything but amount of games played. If Jack was drafted to Port or the Hawks he'd be talked about in the same breath as J Sellwood.

 

[Dazb86]

Seriously though. Objectively I struggle to see how Wines is ahead of Macrae in anything but amount of games played. If Jack was drafted to Port or the Hawks he'd be talked about in the same breath as J Sellwood.

Macrae needs to start kicking more goals. If you are playing outside you need to get your name on the scoreboard a bit or have huge assist numbers. Macrae loses out to Wines (an inside player) in both categories. He's a gun but kicking goals and making assists are two areas where he needs to focus on and improve to become a complete gun.

 

[immortalmike]

Macrae needs to start kicking more goals. If you are playing outside you need to get your name on the scoreboard a bit or have huge assist numbers. Macrae loses out to Wines (an inside player) in both categories. He's a gun but kicking goals and making assists are two areas where he needs to focus on and improve to become a complete gun.

Both are hard to judge based on how few goals we kicked last year. And he loses out to Wines by .2 and .1 respectively. Hardly a massive difference considering Ports attacking style and whatever we were doing last year.

 

[Dazb86]

I have faith he'll get there. Was rated as a Stevie J type prior to being drafted so he knows his way around the goals. Hopefully the new gameplan will get him into better positions to kick goals.

You could make a reasonable argument that Wines is better than Libba. I don't think you could argue Macrae is better than Libba just yet.

 

[immortalmike]

I have faith he'll get there. Was rated as a Stevie J type prior to being drafted so he knows his way around the goals. Hopefully the new gameplan will get him into better positions to kick goals.

You could make a reasonable argument that Wines is better than Libba. I don't think you could argue Macrae is better than Libba just yet.

That's laughable.
Agree with the first part though.

 

[Dazb86]

That's laughable.
Agree with the first part though.

Really?

The stats seem to think they are pretty close. Wines gets on the scoreboard more and has more inside 50's despite getting less clearances. Libba has more tackles and clearances. Pretty neck and neck to be honest and Wines is younger.

 

[Bont2Bruce]

Really?

The stats seem to think they are pretty close. Wines gets on the scoreboard more and has more inside 50's despite getting less clearances. Libba has more tackles and clearances. Pretty neck and neck to be honest and Wines is younger.

Disposal efficiency is the big one for me here. Wines needs to work on his, whereas Libba is one of the more accurate long kicks in the competition.

 

[timtamWB]

Really?

The stats seem to think they are pretty close. Wines gets on the scoreboard more and has more inside 50's despite getting less clearances. Libba has more tackles and clearances. Pretty neck and neck to be honest and Wines is younger.

All that shows me is that they're neck and neck for most stats apart from tackles, clearances and effective disposals, where Libba beats Wines easily. So stats test Libba wins.

And that's before even watching them, in which case you would see Libba is better than Wines. Stats are overrated, even though Libba still wins in that regard.

 

[Dazb86]

Far from laughable though on the back of 1.3 effective disposals a game and some clearances which don't get inside 50. I know Libba hasn't had the chance to do it in the big games yet but Wines has shown to stand up in finals as well. He's a really good player and closer to Libbas level than Macrae which is what I was getting at.

 

[immortalmike]

Far from laughable though on the back of 1.3 effective disposals a game and some clearances which don't get inside 50. I know Libba hasn't had the chance to do it in the big games yet but Wines has shown to stand up in finals as well. He's a really good player and closer to Libbas level than Macrae which is what I was getting at.

I really can't believe you're still taking this tack. It's completely laughable to compare them. Libba is in the best 3 inside mids in the comp, Wines may make top 30. I could throw up Macrae's stats compared to Libba's and they wouldn't look too bad in comparison, and that's with a controlled environment (they play for the same team). Stats are a guide, but they can also be deceptive.

 

[Dazb86]

I really can't believe you're still taking this tack. It's completely laughable to compare them. Libba is in the best 3 inside mids in the comp, Wines may make top 30. I could throw up Macrae's stats compared to Libba's and they wouldn't look too bad in comparison, and that's with a controlled environment (they play for the same team). Stats are a guide, but they can also be deceptive.

It's seriously far from laughable. This is the doggies board so I kind of expected this reaction but if you put a poll for neutral fans to vote it would be pretty close.

You've got to remember Wines is in his 2nd year putting out those numbers which are pretty close to what Libba produced this year. His stats are better than Libbas at the same age.

If you compare Macrae's numbers with Libba's you'll have the same issues arising as comparing his stats with Wines... He doesn't kick enough goals or give enough goal assists as an outside player. This is something he needs to work on.

 

[Dogsman16]

Really?

The stats seem to think they are pretty close. Wines gets on the scoreboard more and has more inside 50's despite getting less clearances. Libba has more tackles and clearances. Pretty neck and neck to be honest and Wines is younger.

Wines' first 2 years at senior level are undoubtably better than what Libba has produced, but he isn't on par with Libba currently, but I believe he will be a slightly better player than Libba.

Heres my top 15 mids (2010 - 2013 drafts) includes pre-listed players etc so 22 years and younger

Based a bit on potential/output etc. Named in alphabetical order and placed into 3 categories.

Tier 1.
Bontempelli (WB)
Heppell (ESS)
O'Meara (GC)
Treloar (GWS)
Wines (PA)

Tier 2.
B.Ellis (RICH)
Josh Kelly (GWS)
Libba (WB)
Macrae (WB)
Parker (SYD)

Tier 3
Dunstan (STK)
Prestia (GC)
Shiel (GWS)
Swallow (GC)
Whitfield (GWS)


Haven't included the utilities such as Wingard, B.Smith, D.Smith, Bennell, WHE, KK, etc. Just pure mids.

 

[immortalmike]

Player Statistics Comparison
Matthew Boyd Name Oliver Wines
Western Bulldogs Team Port Adelaide Power
Midfield Position Midfield
239 Career Games 49
Dandenong Stingrays Origin Bendigo Pioneers
August 27, 1982 Date of Birth October 7, 1994
32yr 6mth Age 20yr 5mth
184cm Height 187cm
88kg Weight 94kg
2001 Rookie Draft Last Drafted In 2012 National Draft
Round 2, Pick #23 Last Draft Position Round 1, Pick #7
Western Bulldogs Last Drafted By Port Adelaide Power
2014 Stats for Season 2014
19 Games 25
13.1 Kicks Per Game 10.0
13.1 Handballs Per Game 14.3
26.2 Disposals Per Game 24.4
3.6 Marks Per Game 2.8
0.4 Goals Per Game 0.6
0.6 Behinds Per Game 0.5
4.3 Tackles Per Game 5.0
0.2 Hitouts Per Game 2.5
3.2 Inside 50s Per Game 3.5
0.6 Goal Assists Per Game 0.6
0.8 Frees For Per Game 1.1
0.7 Frees Against Per Game 0.8
11.3 Contested Possessions Per Game 11.8
14.7 Uncontested Possessions Per Game 12.3
17.4 Effective Disposals Per Game 16.1
66.4% Effective Disposals % Per Game 66%
2.4 Clangers Per Game 2.9
0.2 Contested Marks Per Game 0.3
0.3 Marks Inside 50 Per Game 0.5
4.7 Clearances Per Game 4.8
1.3 Rebound 50s Per Game 1.0
1.5 One Percenters Per Game 1.2
0.5 Bounces Per Game 0.2
87.5 Time On Ground % Per Game 76.6
$540,000 AFL Fantasy Price $517,000
95.4 AFL Fantasy Score Per Game 92.1
$526,200 Supercoach Price $539,200
97.9 Supercoach Score Per Game 101.0


The problem with statistical arguments...

 

[Dazb86]

The problem with statistical arguments...

2nd year player vs a 239 game veteran and the 2nd year player has a better output. There's nothing wrong with that statistical argument.

I cbf'd going on about this. Wines is good. So is Macrae. Libba's a little more advanced than both.

 

[immortalmike]

2nd year player vs a 239 game veteran and the 2nd year player has a better output. There's nothing wrong with that statistical argument.

I cbf'd going on about this. Wines is good. So is Macrae. Libba's a little more advanced than both.

No it's a player past his prime vs a player about to hit it. A player who battled injury in a terrible team vs a healthy player in a top four side. Yet the stats are as comparable as Libba and Wines. That's the problem with a purely statistical argument.

 

[Super Hans]

While we're talking about Macrae, thank * they have fixed the 11 on his jumper. Pissed me off so much last year that the 1's were ridiculously close.

 

[BRWB]

No it's a player past his prime vs a player about to hit it. A player who battled injury in a terrible team vs a healthy player in a top four side. Yet the stats are as comparable as Libba and Wines. That's the problem with a purely statistical argument.

I hear what you are saying, I think you are talking about the 'eye test'.

The thing with Wines is that in big moments in massive games (games we are yet to play in..), Wines has stood up for PA, kicked critical goals, etc. That to me is the definitive 'eye test'.

We're splitting hairs a bit though. They are all guns.

Personally, I'd have Wines neck and neck with Macrae, and taking off my eye patch I can't split them. Libba who is older is in front - pre injury. But at the moment, Libba is in rehab and may not be the player he was, may get chronic hammies, may do his knee again as the chance of doing it again once done is higher than not having done one. No point talking about Libba at the moment IMO.

What I love about Macrae is his disposal efficiency and that he can win his own ball.. Wines is worse DE wise but that is a function of being inside.

In our team, which is choc full of inside mids, Macrae is perfect. In PA's team of good runners, Wines is perfect. Great pick ups for both clubs.

 

[maddog37]

It will be very interesting to see how effective Libba is with Bevs game plan. I would expect him to kick a fair few goals.

 

[100action]

That's fine. But you're in the strong minority. Macrae is a star, no doubt, and I prefer the silky skills he has over the bullocking of Wines, but he has been a star in a great team. If you went to 99% of the footy public, they'd have him in front of Jack. But Jack will be a star for us.

I don think so, this thread on the polls board has them ridiculously close (http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/wines-v-macrae.1067891/).

Macrae is an absolute gun, i rate him higher than Wines and I am well known for shitcanning our players harder than opposition supporters.