Toast Goal Kicking Mids

[POBT]

In 2001, our 4 main midfielders kicked over 20 goals for the year. On top of that, we had Luke Power kicking 50 goals as a small forward/occasional midfielder. When Power joined the fulltime midfield rotation, he quickly joined the ranks of "goal a game" midfielders on our list.

In the period of 8 years since the grand finals, we've barely had a midfielder capable of kicking regular goals. The goals dried up for Power and Black while others (eg Sherman) showed signs without ever becoming consistent footballers.

We've now got them. Hanley, Mayes and Rich are capable of playing long minutes in the midfield and kicking multiple goals. Zorko is a goal kicker who can play midfield cameos. I think Green is one pre-season off being able to do the same.

Goal kicking mids are vital. They not only keep the scoreboard ticking over but also stretch the opposition defensive structure out and make their direct opponent more defensively minded. If we can get one or two more midfielders regularly kicking goals (Polec? Golby?) then we'll really round of this group.

 

[Haso]

For me it's not just the fact that we have goal kicking mids again, but the fact that half of them (Rich, Moloney, Hanley) are kicking them from sometimes well outside 50. In addition to making their direct opponents more accountable, it also completely circumvents their defensive structure.

 

[Lionmoe21]

I think polec can become a really good goal kicking mid and has alredy shown that kicking 9 goals in 16 games and alot of those were cut short either through injury or being a sub

 

[Harris Specter]

Amazing to think that Polec and Mayes have played the same number of games. Really hoping Polec gets a pre-season under his belt.

 

[Toffee Lion]

Beamsy has 12 goals from 15 games, very dangerous when he moves the ball forward and would be a top 10 kick at the club.

 

[Harris Specter]

Hanley, Rich, Mayes, Beams, Polec

Class all round.

 

[Lionmoe21]

Beamsy has 12 goals from 15 games, very dangerous when he moves the ball forward and would be a top 10 kick at the club.

Very true... love beamsy... just hope him and polec dont keep getting injured because both are in our top 22

 

[iBeng]

Redden and Rockliff should also get there when they hit the peak of their careers, more so Rocky. Redden I can see being a permanent clearance machine.

 

[Nunez]

Beams will be an absolute star. I was watching Nab cup videos from this year, and when he had the ball something great came of it.

When Polec is fit, Beams is back- plus the talent already building in our midfield- it'll be a spectacle.

Sam Mayes is the one to watch the most though

 

[38Rockliff38]

I think Leuey will take his game to the next level and push forward and kick afew, similar to Dean Cox

 

[Lionmoe21]

I think Leuey will take his game to the next level and push forward and kick afew, similar to Dean Cox

For luey to do this we will need someone who can play the forward/ruck role... hopefully longer can devolop in to a forward in the near future

 

[PTizzle]

I think Leuey will take his game to the next level and push forward and kick afew, similar to Dean Cox

Leuey has definitely shown signs he's improving in this area. I suspect once Longer comes along more we'll see more of him up forward. Should be exciting times ahead.

I love goal-kicking mids and I love that we now have them. Beams was the first name to come to mind after you listed the (reasonably) proven ones - he just has that goal-sense and finishing ability that you can't teach, I can see him being a goal a game midfielder easily. Can't wait til he's back.

Polec should be the type to bob up with 2-3 on his day as well (a bit like Daniel Wells has been doing as of late). Is classy and also has that instinct to get it between the sticks. Just really hoping that he can stay fit and cement a spot next year, but am not going to get ahead of myself so I'll leave it at that.

Rocky and Redden are no slouches either.

A midfield group of Hanley, Rich, Mayes, Rockliff, Moloney, Redden and Beams has a heap of firepower in it, then there's Zorko and Green who can rotate through the midfield and obviously are goalkickers.

Until we can find a real key forward to replace Browny, then this kind of thing is going to be essential. Once our forward structure is more settled, then it becomes the icing on the cake that can take us to the next level.

 

[Dan12]

They aren't just goal kickers, they are great ball users. Rich and Mayes are elite kicks and regular goal scorers, Hanley's incredibly creative, Moloney can kick a goal or two, Zorko and Green can hit the scoreboard regularly with Green being a seriously good kick of the ball, and Redden and Rocky are solid kicks. Golby and Docherty are both good kicks and both could easily end up on a wing imo.
Polec and especially Beams are very good ball users and goal kickers we'll see tear it up in 2014. Something that's especially good is that Rich, Beams, Polec, Moloney and Zorko are very long kicks and all can nail goals from 55m, very valuable imo (as seen vs Geelong).

I really rate our midfield and once they get some size to win the contested ball and a forward target or two to kick to it will be an elite midfield. And if we get Dom Sheed!

All we need is more/better goal kicking forwards
Keep these positional-oriented threads going POBT, they make for great reading

 

[chopperduck]

Rich, Green, Bewick, Mayes, Hanley, Zorko should all be able to kick 20 goals a season. That isn't a bad return to start with. Just need to find a key forward that could kick us 40-50 and the ruck/forward that could do 30 and we would be sitting pretty well.

 

[acuguy]

Great thread POBT, love goal kicking mids. To be a goal kicking mid you need to have the hunger to spread hard into the forward line through the middle of the ground and more importantly you need the confidence to pin the ears back and take responsibility for kicking the goal.

I am a big believer in encouraging our mids to carry it a little further and break the 50 and take the kick at goal. This is more important for us as we don't have power forwards who can win one on one contests regularly.

 

[JMan5]

Our goalkigking mids are also young so we will have them for a while. Sam Mayes will be a key mid in the next few years as he gains experience.

 

[blynd_freddie]

With apologies POBT, I would just like to take your goal kicking mids idea and expand it slightly to incorporate goal kicking as a whole – then add a correlation to playing in grand finals.

Don’t know if others caught it on the weekend but there was a little information piece on the weekend – showing a comparison between the goal kickers of last years Adelaide team who finished 2nd at the end of the home and away season and their current goal kickers list as of the end of round 20 this year.

ADE: 2013 vs 2012 goal kickers

In the above – ADE: 194 goals [to the end of round 21] versus 326 goals in 2012 and finished 2nd at the end of the home & away.

In stating the bleeding obvious – yep it’s important to kick goal, the more you kick not only do you have a better the chance of beating your opponent but the better your chance is to play off in the Grand Final.

The importance of being… a high goal kicking team - or to be more specific, being either one of the top two teams in the scoring 'FOR' points. I have only gone back over the last 12 Grand Finals [to 2001 - anything between then and 1944 was surely irrelevant] But checking over the last 12 years of grand finalists – there has been at least one of the top two teams that have kicked the most or second most 'FOR' in the home and away season in all bar 2 of the last 12 grand finals. [only in 2005 and 2006 SYD vs WCE – neither were top two]

Seems a good goal kicking team will, in modern times, have a better chance of playing off in the grand final than a good defensive team]

 

[POBT]

I have only gone back over the last 12 Grand Finals [to 2001 - anything between then and 1944 was surely irrelevant] But checking over the last 12 years of grand finalists – there has been at least one of the top two teams that have kicked the most or second most 'FOR' in the home and away season in all bar 2 of the last 12 grand finals. [only in 2005 and 2006 SYD vs WCE – neither were top two]

Interesting info Freddie. Interesting to note that, in 2005, the top scoring side (St Kilda) still made the preliminary final while in 2006, Adelaide was only a few points off being the top scoring side and also made the prelims. So, even in those years known for defensive sides, top scoring sides still did well.

Seems a good goal kicking team will, in modern times, have a better chance of playing off in the grand final than a good defensive team]

Hmmm. Maybe a step too far to extrapolate that.

Best defensive sides

2012: Sydney (Premiers)

2011: Collingwood (Grand Final)

2010: St Kilda (Grand Final) (nb Collingwood had the 2nd best defensive record and were premiers)

2009: St Kilda (Grand Final)

2008: Geelong (Grand Final)

2007: Geelong (Premiers)

2006: Sydney (Grand Final)

2005: Adelaide (Preliminary Final)

2004: Geelong (Preliminary Final) (nb the second and third best sides made the GF)

2003: Port (Preliminary Final)

2002: Port (Preliminary Final (nb Lions had the 2nd best defensive record and were premiers)

2001: Sydney (Elimination Final) (nb Essendon had 2nd best defensive record and made the GF)


I am going to say something completely outlandish. It would appear that the teams that score lots of points and stop the opposition from scoring too much tend to do quite well!

 

[blynd_freddie]

I am going to say something completely outlandish. It would appear that the teams that score lots of points and stop the opposition from scoring too much tend to do quite well!

2012 – premiers - SYD 140.58% ranked #2 – HAW #1 with 154.59
2011 – GEE 157.37% #2 – COL #1 with 167.66
2010 – COL 141.68% #2 – GEE #1 with 147.94
2009 – GEE 127.38% #2 – STK #1 with 155.71
2008 – HAW 131.85% #2 – GEE #1 with 161.84

Gee.... the last five years suggests you only have to be the 2nd best!

Sorry, been on the road most of today so couldn't get to the above... anything else been happening?

*EDIT - Oct 2014

in both 2013 & 2014 HAW finished the H&A season as the team to score the most points for the year [and have gone back to back in those years]

Sent by digital clock in car using taptalk​

 

[Grimreepah]

I am going to say something completely outlandish. It would appear that the teams that score lots of points and stop the opposition from scoring too much tend to do quite well!

I've noticed this correlation as well... I think to score lots of goals you need to be spending a lot of time creating opportunities to score, and if you are doing that then there is less time for the opposition to be scoring. So it makes sense that on average teams that kick more goals concede less.

 

[Dylan12]

Interesting to note that we only have two players that have kicked more than 100 goals in their careers:

1. Brent Staker (119)
2. Dayne Beams (118)

Next best are Josh Green (72), Dan Merrett (69), Dan Rich (67) and Dayne Zorko (60).

I'm already of the view that there will be a greater reliance on our mids to hit the scoreboard more than ever before.

 

[Chasing the Dream]

Wow, that is an interesting stat.

 

[blynd_freddie]

I've noticed this correlation as well... I think to score lots of goals you need to be spending a lot of time creating opportunities to score, and if you are doing that then there is less time for the opposition to be scoring. So it makes sense that on average teams that kick more goals concede less.

Scoring - WHO, HOW, WHEN & WHERE

WHO – 3 types of player score involvements:
1: a player in a score chain,
2: an assist, the player last player in the chain forwards the ball to
3: the scorer.

HOW - Scoring sources
1: clearances,
2: turnovers,
3: kick-ins

NB: taking the face value of the source stats can tend to be meaningless, best to incorporate a strike rate % - something like: the average points scored per 100 scoring sources (clearances, turnovers, kick-ins), would strengthen the importance immensely.

WHEN - time in possession – the ball is either in the possession of team A or team B – or neither team is in possession, when it’s in dispute – One can then do a further break-down of when teams score/not score, [where shots out on the full and/or rushed behinds fit in, I’d argue it’s either a turn-over or clanger that becomes a kick-in], while in possession and scores can be broken down into halves, quarters, parts of the quarters, eg. red time, clusters/run-ons, groups of two or more consecutive goals without the opposition scoring and even times between the run-ons – tempo footy, the defensive lock-down periods of play.

WHERE - score launches – from inside the defensive 50, the midfield between arcs or inside the forward 50.

- scoring success inside: 50’s - Total scoring shots (or goals) divided by total inside 50’s and then multiplied by 100. A high rating in this statistic can enable teams to stay in a game even when the opposition is having the better of general play.

So… back-ish on topic and players/goals,

Interesting to note that we only have two players that have kicked more than 100 goals in their careers:

1. Brent Staker (119)
2. Dayne Beams (118)

Next best are Josh Green (72), Dan Merrett (69), Dan Rich (67) and Dayne Zorko (60).

I'm already of the view that there will be a greater reliance on our mids to hit the scoreboard more than ever before.

So taking it the next step, anyone want to give say MID player importance versus KPF/others a go?

1. possession players that hit the scoreboard, versus
2. clearance winning players, versus
3. turnover creating players, versus
4. linkmen players who hold possession/move the ball forward, without turning it over.
5. and then finally KPF vs goalkicking/clearance winning/turnover creating/linkmen MIDS.

TOTALLY agree with you Dylan our mids really need to step - I also wonder... should/will AFL teams now move closer towards becoming a faster smaller type squads like the Irish team and their dominance over our generally more taller more static KPP squads?

 

[brizrider]

TOTALLY agree with you Dylan our mids really need to step - I also wonder... should/will AFL teams now move closer towards becoming a faster smaller type squads like the Irish team and their dominance over our generally more taller more static KPP squads?

Yep can see that happening. Its a supply issue for starters - there just aren't enough good quality tall KPP players, they take longer to develop and even if you have one if you build your whole structure around them you're a bit stuffed without them when they get injured etc. Hawthorn had a horror year for injuries this year but the one player they didn't lose was Roughead who played 23 games and kicked 75 goals. The next biggest goal scorers were guys like Puopolo and Rioli who got in the low 20's. Their spread of goal kickers, like all top teams was broad.

 

[iBeng]

Yep can see that happening. Its a supply issue for starters - there just aren't enough good quality tall KPP players, they take longer to develop and even if you have one if you build your whole structure around them you're a bit stuffed without them when they get injured etc. Hawthorn had a horror year for injuries this year but the one player they didn't lose was Roughead who played 23 games and kicked 75 goals. The next biggest goal scorers were guys like Puopolo and Rioli who got in the low 20's. Their spread of goal kickers, like all top teams was broad.

Didnt Lewis, Gunston and co get like 40+ as well?