Gough Whitlam: Messiah or Very Naughty Boy?

Messiah or Very Naughty Boy?

  • Messiah

    Votes: 37 72.5%
  • Very Naughty Boy

    Votes: 7 13.7%
  • What the?

    Votes: 7 13.7%

  • Total voters
    51
He was the sort of PM that Australia could afford for a short time only. It was the most shambolic government I've ever seen.
A shambolic government that still achieved more than many other governments since.
I was around as an adult during Billys days.
 

medusala

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Seriously Meds; do the numbers.

Surely on a purely economics basis you have to support this?

No. It is crxp. The system is a joke. Its utterly absurd to say "oh it would cost x". Its just an excuse to spend even more money on nonsensical govt programs which will do stuff all to prevent crime.

What you fail to mention is that if people knew they were at risk of losing their home they would be far less likely to misbehave. If people don't face consequences for their actions, then they aren't discourage from them. You don't seem to understand this.

Remember all the squealing re Clintons welfare changes, how it would cause homelessness and crime?
 
Oct 2, 2007
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No. It is crxp. The system is a joke. Its utterly absurd to say "oh it would cost x". Its just an excuse to spend even more money on nonsensical govt programs which will do stuff all to prevent crime?

But Meds I've already shown you how it saves money and prevents crime.

The bloody cost benefit analysis was done by a WA police captain and vetted by price Waterhouse coopers!

Guess neither of them know about crime or accounting.
 
Aug 16, 2006
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It does have something to do with Gough. Free education means more people get degrees which lessens the worth of each degree. There are so many people with degrees now that as you point out many jobs require them. That by itself doesn't mean they have intrinsic worth, merely that the bar has been raised.

The below, went in to detail on this matter.

Does Education Matter?: Myths About Education and Economic Growth, Penguin (2002

One of Gough's policies that gets most lauded was one of his worst. IIRC a number in his own party realised this. There is a great quote by a minister (Beazeley? ) re this, cant find it with a quick google though)

By the way is anyone on here going to attempt to defend Gough increasing spending by 40% in one year?

Anyone??

I don't agree, as the historical transition from a capitalism based on production to one based on information, technology, consumption and knowledge means that more degrees holders are necessary. In a way history has necessitated the demand.

Secondly, your argument is painfully classist. Gough made it possible for lower middle and working class people to get degrees, and through that education better their lives and those of their family. His changes to tertiary education effected many lives for the better. If you want to criticize him for anything, it's expanding the middle classes through education reform. And as a classist that is precisely what you are criticizing him for.

Lastly, you bemoan the lessening of the value of degrees, yet you also preach the wonder of free market capitalism. This a contradiction, as the lessening value of degrees is directly proportionate with universities having to treat their degrees like commodities that students simply purchase.
As with many things you want aggressive free market capitalism, yet bemoan its social effects. This is a common delusion of the Right.
 

medusala

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Secondly, your argument is painfully classist. Gough made it possible for lower middle and working class people to get degrees, and through that education better their lives and those of their family. His changes to tertiary education effected many lives for the better. If you won't to criticize him for anything, it's expanding the middle classes through education reform. And as a classist that is precisely what you are criticizing him for.

They always could get degrees via scholarships. Gough decimated the middle class via his economic policies, he hardly was a boon to them!

Lastly, you bemoan the lessening of the value of degrees, yet you also preach the wonder of free market capitalism

Amusing. There is no market price set for a degree ie heavy government subsidies distorts the market. If people paid the true price for a degree then demand would fall.

I am ALL for free market capitalism.
 

Riseupaustralia

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What like ******* things up royally?

:drunk:

No. It is crxp. The system is a joke. Its utterly absurd to say "oh it would cost x". Its just an excuse to spend even more money on nonsensical govt programs which will do stuff all to prevent crime.

What you fail to mention is that if people knew they were at risk of losing their home they would be far less likely to misbehave. If people don't face consequences for their actions, then they aren't discourage from them. You don't seem to understand this.

Remember all the squealing re Clintons welfare changes, how it would cause homelessness and crime?


Meds

Was your humanity surgically removed, or was there some other reason?
 

medusala

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But Meds I've already shown you how it saves money and prevents crime.

You have done nothing of the sort. You haven't proved causation re threat of homelessness and crime.

:drunk:
Meds
Was your humanity surgically removed, or was there some other reason?

Again no sympathy for the silent majority whose lives are blighted by scum. I stand with them, the law abiders.


Unfortunately Gough's government started the ball rolling where people now view themselves as victims and demand that other taxpayers fund them no matter how badly they behave.

#ontheclaphamomnibus
 

Riseupaustralia

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They always could get degrees via scholarships.

That is disingenuous rubbish and you know it.

Scholarships were carefully vetted for those who could normally go to university, but current financial circumstances prevented it.

It had NOTHING to do with giving some advantage to the disadvantaged.

Again no sympathy for the silent majority whose lives are blighted by scum. I stand with them, the law abiders.

#ontheclaphamomnibus

So, it was genetic.
 
Oct 2, 2007
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You have done nothing of the sort. You haven't proved causation re threat of homelessness and crime.

Hang on. Are you saying there is no correlation between extreme poverty (ie homelessness) and... Crime?

Mate there was a reason this copper was getting involved with this family before they became homeless.

s**t, in WA simply being homeless is a crime. You get a move along order from the cops. Breaching it is a crime.

Where can you go if homeless?

For someone that harps on about links between ethnicity and crime, you certainly are wilfully blind to the effects of poverty and crime.
 
Nov 6, 2002
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Hang on. Are you saying there is no correlation between extreme poverty (ie homelessness) and... Crime?

Mate there was a reason this copper was getting involved with this family before they became homeless.

s**t, in WA simply being homeless is a crime. You get a move along order from the cops. Breaching it is a crime.

Where can you go if homeless?

For someone that harps on about links between ethnicity and crime, you certainly are wilfully blind to the effects of poverty and crime.

You should be able to format that better .

Edit: Well done. :thumbsu:
 
Aug 16, 2006
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They always could get degrees via scholarships. Gough decimated the middle class via his economic policies, he hardly was a boon to them!



Amusing. There is no market price set for a degree ie heavy government subsidies distorts the market. If people paid the true price for a degree then demand would fall.

I am ALL for free market capitalism.

A typically thread-bare reply, but I've become used to that over the years. Anyway, I know you are all for the free market, which is my point. You can't bemoan the loss of a degrees value and then happily extol the virtues of market based tertiary education. That is a contradiction. Market based tertiary education significantly dumbs down education. Degrees become something one just buys, students become consumers rather than learners, and certain types of knowledge (usually classical types) that have no place in the market die off. The standard of tertiary education has dropped proportionally with its commercialization.

You are typical of the contradiction of the Right. You are all for the marketing of higher education, but cry boo-hoo as degrees become little more than meaningless assembly line products. You want a global economy, but cry boo-hoo at its social effects, like multiculturalism. You don't much like gays, but fail to see that the social acceptance of homosexuality was paved by the fact a commodity based society doesn't discriminate - not because it is a just and fair society, but because sexual difference is just another market.

You are like Miranda Devine and all those limited right wingers. You cannot for the life of you think dialectically. You fail to understand that the economy creates a specific culture and social effects. You are constantly criticizing social realities that free market capitalism authors.
 
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Gus Poyet

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Don't troll this thread.

Didn't Frasier let in hundreds of thousands of boat people right after he ditched Gough?

Apologies.

I saw a thread started by a mod trolling people and thought it was troll-day thursday.

Will cease and desist in this thread.
 

Northalives

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Yeah, let's all have a go at Gough. In 1973, when OPEC realised that they had power over the "first world" because they could control the price of oil, the whole world changed including Australia and once more, it was the Labour movement who had to steer Australia through tumultuous times.

Some of the pathetic right wing numbskulls around here reckon that all governments have to do is sit on their hands and do nothing. Well that's exactly what the arch conservative Menzies did from 1949 to 1966. Remember him? He's the dick head who threw his arms up when the second world war started and said "it's all too hard for me" and Curtain steered us through that horrendous period because the Queen's man had no idea and was surrounded by the landed gentry whose only contribution to Australia were lavish cocktail parties!

Then from 1946 to 1949, Chifley, in three years, turned Australia into the most advanced country on the face of the planet with social and economic initiatives that were light years ahead of anything anywhere else on the planet. Menzies came to power on the back of the "communist" threat and promptly sat on his hands, except for turning over truck loads of money to Blackjack McEwan and the squattocracy he represented.

When Sir Robert retired to the gentlemanly position of the thirteenth Chancellor of the University of Melbourne in '66, a succession of playboys and ignoramuses took control of Australia in a world that was rapidly changing but that's OK, we were all the way with LBJ!

After nearly a quarter of a century of doing nothing and Australians finally wising up to the fact that "reds under the beds" was a hoax, they elected Whitlam and the Labour movement which went about once again, putting Australia way out in front of the rest of the world in the pursuit of a great egalitarian society. Well, the Menzian old boys were livid! No tactics were illegal, immoral, too underhanded or against convention for these great upholders of democracy, the "liberal" party, when it came to getting rid of this humungous threat to the status quo.

So the great knight in shining armour, along with little Johnny, came along to rescue Australia from the ravages of equality and went about giving Australia double digit inflation, double digit unemployment, magnificent bottom-of-the-harbour schemes for and by prominent "liberals", recession and a completely moribund economy.

The truth is that the world had started changing rapidly and continues to change geo-politicaly, economically and technologically to this day but whereas Whitlam saw the health and welfare of society in general as the most important function of government, little Johnny and the chaps reckon it was all about keeping the already wealthy and privileged, wealthy and privileged and that necessarily means means retaining the status quo: who gives a toss about what's happening in the rest of the world!

He we are, nearly 40 years later and we still have the "liberal" party trying to destroy the things that "useless" Whitlam and the Labour movement put in place so we can all share the wealth of this country and to maintain our dignity.

We still hear about how shockingly bad economic managers the Whitlam governments were but nowhere to be found is the context of what kind of world Whitlam had to govern in. Nowhere to be heard is how the Fraser/Howard terms of government made Whitlam's economic management seem pretty good by comparison.

To all of those mocking and denigrating Gough Whitlam, you live in the best country on earth because of Whitlam and because of Curtain and Chifley before him and Keating after them and to see your latest leader, the most reactionary and backward leader this country has ever had, Tony Abbott, get up before parliament along with all his lunatic right wingers and feign respect Whitlam whilst being hellbent on destroying his legacies is disgusting.

If Abbott were to live a thousand years, he'd still only do one billionth of what Whitlam did in three.
 

Gus Poyet

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Wow, what a Labor homer.

Love reading the revisionist history stories.
 
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Some of the pathetic right wing numbskulls around here reckon that all governments have to do is sit on their hands and do nothing. Well that's exactly what the arch conservative Menzies did from 1949 to 1966. Remember him?

And in that period , inflation & unemployment were ~ 2%.

Maybe sitting on their hands and doing nothing is a winner.
 

Gus Poyet

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To all of those mocking and denigrating Gough Whitlam, you live in the best country on earth because of Whitlam and because of Curtain and Chifley before him and Keating after them and to see your latest leader, the most reactionary and backward leader this country has ever had, Tony Abbott, get up before parliament along with all his lunatic right wingers and feign respect Whitlam whilst being hellbent on destroying his legacies is disgusting.

If Abbott were to live a thousand years, he'd still only do one billionth of what Whitlam did in three.

We live in the best country in the world becuase of the hard work of the people. Not some dog politicians who are so very good at spending other peoples money.

Whitlam was a bandit the way he threw other peoples money around all the while creating the hand out sense of entitlement society we sadly live in now.
 
Oct 2, 2007
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We live in the best country in the world becuase of the hard work of the people. Not some dog politicians who are so very good at spending other peoples money.

Whitlam was a bandit the way he threw other peoples money around all the while creating the hand out sense of entitlement society we sadly live in now.

Opposed to tyranny of big government via taxation.

Supports people being detained indefinately at gunpoint with no procedural fairness or right to trial by the exact same government.

Libertarianism fail.
 

Northalives

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And in that period , inflation & unemployment were ~ 2%.

Maybe sitting on their hands and doing nothing is a winner.
and that's the point. The world was really stable economically so Menzies and the chaps went to social soirées and only had to make sure that once every three years they uttered the words "9/11", oops, "reds-under-the-beds" and they were in again; left free to "party" and oblivious to the fact that the rest of the world was catching up.

There was no forward thinking, planning: that was all done by Curtain/Chifley.
 
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