Opinion Gun or Gone? Polarised opinions

[Toastman]

So is Lin Jong off the question mark list yet? He is clearly going to be able to hold down a top 22 spot.

 

[BRWB]

The season has ended but I found this thread to be an interesting read on a number of fronts. dogwatch well done on the below summary and thread. At the end is a cautionary tale of relying on groupthink to justify an opinion - but kudos to everyone right or wrong who stuck their necks out. Less kudos to those less than respectful of 'minority' opinions.

No, the point of the thread was that we're not just talking about will he be an A-Grader or a B/C-grader. Or play 100 games or 200 games. We have those discussions about lots of players. It's about being a gun or being "gone" i.e. maybe not even playing AFL. Beast or Bust.

There have been posts saying Wallis will be off our list in 2-3 years or at least will be unable to secure a regular spot in our midfield. Similar things have been said about Hrovat. In both cases they might be a minority but they are people who post here regularly and whose opinions are generally respected.

Here's one from Fronkalicious (On Wallis being off the list):
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/jack-macrae-marcus-bontempelli.1089111/page-5#post-37351801

And one from MattDougie (On lots of people - not just him - thinking Hrovat won't make it):
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/gun-or-gone-polarised-opinions.1089735/page-2#post-37366526​

And at the same time other people are saying these very same players could be elite.

Fronk again (on Hrovat AND Wallis):
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/jack-macrae-marcus-bontempelli.1089111/page-5#post-37351214

NathanMJ (on Hrovat):
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/gun-or-gone-polarised-opinions.1089735/#post-37362870

Can't quickly find a "rave" review of Wallis (there have been some) but this one from Paulveed comes close:
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/gun-or-gone-polarised-opinions.1089735/page-3#post-37378129

Both Paulveed and I raised the similarities between Scott West (300 games and a string of B&Fs) and Wallis. If he's anywhere near West he'll do OK.​

......

As for Hrovat, the majority of people think he will make it and be a very good player for us. It's only one very vocal person, and a couple of others among the 100+ on this board, that don't think Hrovat will make it. Even listing his weaknesses, you probably found yourself struggling. Yes he's short, he's not overly quick but he's nowhere near slow, and he's shown the ability to find the pill. So the only weakness is that he's short. So what? We've seen lots of short players excel.

 

[The Slitherin' Snake]

I think Wallis will be a gun (as good as Libba now that he can play his natural game). I'm not sold on Hrovat and it wouldn't surprise me if he still wasn't best 22 at the end of the year. I just don't really know what he is good/great at. He's ok at most things, but that might make him a bit meh

A season later and I am more confident in my assessment / opinion on both players

 

[BRWB]

A season later and I am more confident in my assessment / opinion on both players

Me too...., maybe a bit more sure that Hrovat doesn't make it at our club.

Interesting thread:

Wallis - Is it me, is it the hair, is it his average kicking, is it his good vision, but does anyone see similarities with Wallis and the current Brownlow medalist?? With Libba and Griffen gone, Wallis is going to get the opportunity this year, I think he will take it and may even challenge Macrae and Murphy for BnF. There is a lot to like about him. This year is the year of the Wallis in my view.

Grant - Just a crying shame, beautiful hands, sticky fingers, a reasonable field kick, explosive pace. Seems his head has never allowed him to reach his potential. Who knows maybe Bev can get in his head and turn it around. If I'm betting though, Grant will be given opportunity, fluff his lines and be VFL towards the end of year and gone. Just a shame. Grant could be a guy that goes to another club and smashes it.

Hrovat - Really not sure on him. Looked the goods in a game against Essendon (but so did Grant one day..), but doesn't seem to get enough of it, he's tiny, he's seemingly perpetually injured. Has okay skills and pace and reasonable vision but nothing exceptional. Think his ceiling is B grade at best. At present he hasn't been able to get a game regularly in a poor team. Personally think Caleb Daniel could overtake him if not this year then next. There's only so much room for tiny men in today's game, and we have a lot with Dahl and Honey in this bracket as well. Nathan simply has to stay fit and do the business this season, now is his time to shine. Hope he makes it.

 

[The Slitherin' Snake]

Me too...., maybe a bit more sure that Hrovat doesn't make it at our club.

Other than Grant ending the year in the VFL this is scarily accurate

 

[BRWB]

Other than Grant ending the year in the VFL this is scarily accurate

To add some balance, I thought Easton Wood was so so and didn't care if he left at the start of the season.

 

[Testekill]

To add some balance, I thought Easton Wood was so so and didn't care if he left at the start of the season.

Yeah, early on in 2014 I was just so over Wood since during that period he was holding down a key role and failing abysmally at it.

 

[Mattdougie]

Wallis definitely belongs in this thread about polarising opinions. I personally think he'll be a solid B grader, I can see why some think he might be an A grader, or why he might be delisted. He's incredibly quick with his hands, has shown that he can be a tagger that can damage going the opposite way (which is rare), leadership and also has some footy smarts. On the flipside, he's slow, can't kick, not overly penetrative even by hand etc. So there are two sides to the argument.

I'm going on record right here that I'm not arguing about Hrovat. We've all been through it ad nauseum and I seriously cannot be bothered doing it again.

As for Hrovat, the majority of people think he will make it and be a very good player for us. It's only one very vocal person, and a couple of others among the 100+ on this board, that don't think Hrovat will make it. Even listing his weaknesses, you probably found yourself struggling. Yes he's short, he's not overly quick but he's nowhere near slow, and he's shown the ability to find the pill. So the only weakness is that he's short. So what? We've seen lots of short players excel.

So Tim are you now only prepared to say his only weakness is height?

Injury prone
Poor delivery
Poor positioning forward
Lack of composure
Goal sense weak
Mid paced mid tank

A year and if anything Hrovat has gone backwards.

I NOW see his issue as being so many blokes have gone past him and can show what they do he will only get a chance if we have many injuries and his chances of staying injury free himself are on history minimal.

I honestly believe if people watched this bloke thru honest eyes they never will have seen an AFL footballer. My prediction was he wouldn't play 50 games for the club and I stand by that(VFL doesn't count).

I cannot wait to see how Cordy Dale McLean Libba Smith Webb and Daniel go because id be stunned if Hrovat gets a gig in front of any of these blokes if they are fit

 

[_Mike_]

So Tim are you now only prepared to say his only weakness is height?

Injury prone
Poor delivery
Poor positioning forward
Lack of composure
Goal sense weak
Mid paced mid tank

I agree with a fair few of those sentiments and have never felt that Hrovat would make it. I'm still not sold on his ability today and honestly think the best he'll be with us is another depth/gap player

 

[ossie_21]

Hrovat has quickly become the whipping boy around here, jeez

 

[BRWB]

Hrovat has quickly become the whipping boy around here, jeez

For me it's less to do with Hrovat and more to do with a degree of annoyance at the BF groupthink that occurs and then the dismissive reactions of some BF 'groupies' when someone posts an opinion that diverges from the group think.

Don't get me wrong I'm all for discussing opposing views, I'm just not a fan of attacking a poster for having alternate views or trying to justify an opinion by saying its right because most posters think that way or because a select few posters have 'mail' (which by the way can change as the club itself changes) or have a particular opinion.

 

[paulveed]

Hrovat has quickly become the whipping boy around here, jeez

With J Grant gone, an alternative target seems to be required.

 

[Easty]

I cannot wait to see how Cordy Dale McLean Libba Smith Webb and Daniel go because id be stunned if Hrovat gets a gig in front of any of these blokes if they are fit

Don't think Cordy is fighting for the same spot Hrovat would be but I don't disagree entirely.

I mean, I think Hrovat can seriously play. But is he good enough to crack into our midfield?

It's starting to look unlikely.

 

[TheHoneyBadger]

I mean, I think Hrovat can seriously play. But is he good enough to crack into our midfield?

It's starting to look unlikely.

This is where I stand.

Not breaking into our midfield doesn't make you a dud or a 'bust'.

 

[Dogsman16]

This is where I stand.

Not breaking into our midfield doesn't make you a dud or a 'bust'.

Liberatore, Bontempelli, Dahlhaus, Wallis, Macrae, Hunter, Picken, Stevens is a tough group to crack.

 

[immortalmike]

Hrovat has quickly become the whipping boy around here, jeez

Most have been delisted or retired in the last couple of years. The board is going through a transitional period.

 

[BRWB]

This is where I stand.

Not breaking into our midfield doesn't make you a dud or a 'bust'.

Don't disagree. My main concern is that Hrovat doesn't make it at our club. I'm not sold on him but wouldn't go as far to say he is a 'dud'.

But as it goes for any player, he won't make it anywhere if he can't get and stay fit. And he hasn't done this yet.

 

[Mattdougie]

Don't think Cordy is fighting for the same spot Hrovat would be but I don't disagree entirely.

I mean, I think Hrovat can seriously play. But is he good enough to crack into our midfield?

It's starting to look unlikely.

Hrovat isn't close to good enough to make our midfield so if he wants a spot will be pushed out to a wing or half back or forward.

IMO he also isn't good enough for any of those spots but that is how he will be fighting against Cordy for a spot.

I said from day one with his size he would need to be elite at something to get an AFL spot. He isn't close to elite in any aspect so therefore he not only won't make it but is incapable of making it and again as I said will be a waste of a pick, it was a poor decision to take him and that will be proven correct unfortunately.

All you have to do is look at Daniel and his poise and see what I mean about having an elite aspect to counter your size.

 

[Easty]

I said from day one with his size he would need to be elite at something to get an AFL spot. He isn't close to elite in any aspect so therefore he not only won't make it but is incapable of making it and again as I said will be a waste of a pick, it was a poor decision to take him and that will be proven correct unfortunately.

Slightly off topic, but I'd be interested to know your thoughts on Jade Gresham?

 

[Mattdougie]

Slightly off topic, but I'd be interested to know your thoughts on Jade Gresham?

Honestly haven't seen enough of him to really comment BUT he seems to have a elite ability to find the ball

I've said from day one small blokes need an elite trait to offset their size

Hrovat has none and that's why he won't make it and never was going to

 

[Easty]

Fair enough. I see them as very similar players personally.