Has Damien Hardwick taken us as far as he can?

[_RT_]

That doesn't make him a good coach. Every coach in the league will have a better % against half the teams and a worse % against roughly half the teams when compared to his OWN average. That's what makes it an average...

Al Clarkson is the best coach of the modern era according to many and going by some of the logic put forward here about how Hardwick isn't a good coach because he struggles against certain sides, perhaps we should be questioning Clarksons coaching ability given he has a poorer winning % against 10 teams than his overall career winning %.

 

[tigs2010]

the Difference is when a Hawthorn player looks up they sees multiple options moving in front of them... either creating space or providing a alternate option... our players look up and its stationary players not moving.... player standing still pointing in the their for a long bomb.

Our lack of Skill is due mainly to the difficulty level in finding a target in confined spaces with the receiver under pressure... the hawks create space to run into to receive the ball....




The first half against Carlton and the second half against the dogs we were able to break the game open by using attacking ball movement all around the ground... we took risks and they paid off. We need to do this more than 2 qtrs a game.



Hope so.... changes need to be made re: ball movement.

Agree. And don't get me started on our lack of movement/fitness.

 

[Boggle]

I think many people are missing the argument. It's not about has Hardwick been good for the RFC and is the club in a better position from when he took over. Both of those are a resounding yes. It's about if he is the right person/able to take the club further.

No, I don't think anybody is missing the argument.

What's happening is that some of us think it's too early to call.

That is, some of us are not yet prepared to answer "no" to the question "is Dimma the guy to take the club further?"

The only reason we keep bringing up Dimma's track-record is because it's actually relevant to the question.

 

[_RT_]

A few questions here for those on either side of the fence to answer.

1 a) Is Hardwick's high possession game style based on high kicking efficiency effective in AFL?

b) If you answer no, why not?

Yes it is, took the Hawks to 2 straight Grand Finals and took us to the finals last year.

2 a) Do we currently have the players in the 22 that can execute Dimma's game plan?

2 b) If you answer no, then do you think we potentially have these players on the list that could develop into the role?

Not in the 22 but we do have them on the list.

3) How do we play when our better users get a hold of the ball?

We play fast attacking line breaking footy that puts the opposition under pressure. When they don't have it we stagnate and struggle to get any momentum going.

4 a) Do you think the 3 pronged tall forward line will work?

b) If you answer no, what would you like to see?

Yes it will, but needs some adjustment. For mine I'd like to see on of Vickery/Hampson/Maric at FF deep in the square to give us a get out option. I'd like to see Griffiths play at CHF as a lead up option to link up between the arcs and have Jack play as a roaming forward who has licence to go anywhere in the F50.

 

[_RT_]

I don't see Hardwick as being the guy to take the club to the next level. Nothing that has been on display at his 5 years at the club has shown me a reason to think otherwise.

So taking a side described as worse than a dying Fitzroy after his first 9 games to being a finals side 3.5 years later isn't a reason to think he can continue to take us further.

 

[Rodney Dangerfield]

The difference a coach makes is minimal unless they have the tools to work with.
It's all about perception.
It astounds me that Mick Malthouse has been able to live off being lucky enough to be at WestCoast early 1990's for so long.
That's one example.
Paul Roos could have this lot for 5 years and do sweet FA.
It's about getting lucky mostly.
Particularly initially.
Then if you're lucky enough to survive and get some success you develop a sort of mystique that even players get swept up in .
Nobody could ever convince me that coach x is much better than coach y.
Coach x just caught the breaks.
The big one I think is being able to ignore the masses and focus on keeping it together for the clubs sake.
Only they know how the players are responding to the coach and that is the only thing that matters.
It's always the players who decide the coaches fate.
Maybe,in fact highly likely the club understand that the current batch of players just aren't good enough.
No coach would make any difference at all on that case.
If a coach starts to evidently take a club backwards,loses the players or begins to lose focus due to the public scrutiny or from fatigue then I'm all for moving on a coach.
There is no evidence of any of this whatsoever,so in my own humble opinion it's not even worth talking about.

 

[tigs2010]

Yes it is, took the Hawks to 2 straight Grand Finals and took us to the finals last year.



Not in the 22 but we do have them on the list.


We play fast attacking line breaking footy that puts the opposition under pressure. When they don't have it we stagnate and struggle to get any momentum going.


Yes it will, but needs some adjustment. For mine I'd like to see on of Vickery/Hampson/Maric at FF deep in the square to give us a get out option. I'd like to see Griffiths play at CHF as a lead up option to link up between the arcs and have Jack play as a roaming forward who has licence to go anywhere in the F50.

I was gunna answer my own questions later when others had done so but now I don't have to. I think this sums it up well for me. I think the forwards just need some decent crumbers and more good ball users through midfield and off half back meaning we can isolate them 1 on 1. Very, very rarely do our KPF's get outmarked, they always bring it to ground but we have no crumbing forwards.

 

[Rodney Dangerfield]

I was gunna answer my own questions later when others had done so but now I don't have to. I think this sums it up well for me. I think the forwards just need some decent crumbers and more good ball users through midfield and off half back meaning we can isolate them 1 on 1. Very, very rarely do our KPF's get outmarked, they always bring it to ground but we have no crumbing forwards.

I seen a stat on here somewhere that showed Shane Edwards had more than half the amount of scoring shots last season compared to 2012.
He had over 50 in 2012. That should be par.

 

[_RT_]

I was gunna answer my own questions later when others had done so but now I don't have to. I think this sums it up well for me. I think the forwards just need some decent crumbers and more good ball users through midfield and off half back meaning we can isolate them 1 on 1. Very, very rarely do our KPF's get outmarked, they always bring it to ground but we have no crumbing forwards.

Get a side along the following on the park and I think we'll see a better performance.

B: Morris Astbury Rance
HB: Houli Chaplin Lennon
C: Conca Jackson Ellis
HF: Deledio Griffiths Martin
F: Lloyd Hampson Riewoldt(Floating)
R: Maric Thomas Cotchin
INT: Vlastuin Grimes McDonough Gordon

As I said in an earlier post, this 22 has grunt, skill, speed & flexibility. Depending on how things were going you can throw this side around and change things up

 

[Dr Tigris]

Dimma has taken the squad from crap to top 8. On what we have seen so far if we play to our ability we win 3. We play half games and it's 1-2. When the players perform the game plan properly I find it hard to see us losing against anyone.

But, is it the coaches fault that we on again, off again, that we tend to have problems in dealing with run ons against us, that we are so intermitent??

To me it must be partly the coach. But then it is also the players and football department in general. Right now I see two scenarios. 1) The team is starting rusty and will click and then be top 8, maybe top 4. 2) The team can't actually do the game plan 4 quarters a game, week in week out, and we need a change in personnel - playing and/or coaching.

The first half against the Blues and second against the Dogs were the standard I want to see. We will smash the Pies if we play like that for a whole game. If we serve up the other crap we have played then we will get smashed ourselves. Dimma needs to get them up, But the big thing to me is making them more even and switched on as the base case. Right now our base case seems to be on/off. Over the next month we will learn a lot about Dimma as a coach of a fairly mature team that knows his game inside out. I'm not making a call, I've seen lots of good things and plenty of stuff I'm not keen on. Overall he has done a great job. But taking the team from competitive to contender is hard. Might be we end up with Chocco. Might be we realise Dimma is a genius.

 

[I Rock]

So taking a side described as worse than a dying Fitzroy after his first 9 games to being a finals side 3.5 years later isn't a reason to think he can continue to take us further.

Because the side has shown no sign of improvement in the areas needed to take the next step. When has the side played a four quarter game last or for two weeks in a row? Why does the side continue to fade out? Why does the side continue to freeze up like deer in the headlights? Why are we ,losing the same sort of games against the same type of opponents? Why is there no plan B (beyond Martin to the goal square of course)? Where is this pride and hunger that gets thrown around by the club so often? Where is the on field leadership? Where are the true match winners when the game is on the line?

These and a few I'm sure I have missed are all areas needed to be a top four side/permanent finals side. None of these areas have approved or look/ed to improve under Hardwick.

 

[nut]

Get a side along the following on the park and I think we'll see a better performance.

B: Morris Astbury Rance
HB: Houli Chaplin Lennon
C: Conca Jackson Ellis
HF: Deledio Griffiths Martin
F: Lloyd Hampson Riewoldt(Floating)
R: Maric Thomas Cotchin
INT: Vlastuin Grimes McDonough Gordon

As I said in an earlier post, this 22 has grunt, skill, speed & flexibility. Depending on how things were going you can throw this side around and change things up

Stopped reading when I saw Hampson at FF.... Lmfao... Yes Vickery isn't having the best start.... But Hampson a forward??????? Come on.

 

[_RT_]

Stopped reading when I saw Hampson at FF.... Lmfao... Yes Vickery isn't having the best start.... But Hampson a forward??????? Come on.

Gives us the ability to play 2 ruckmen which is what Hardwick wants to do. Griffiths at CHF is a much better option than Vickery as he can clunk a contested grab and kicks it a mile. Hampson/Maric deep in the square where they either take the mark or provide a spill for Lloyd/Martin/Deledio/Cotchin to hit at pace. Predictable to each other. Jack free to roam where he sees fit to be involved in the play. I also trust Hampson/Maric and Griffiths not to drag their opponent with them into the contest that Jack is going to unlike Vickery.

 

[tigs2010]

Get a side along the following on the park and I think we'll see a better performance.

B: Morris Astbury Rance
HB: Houli Chaplin Lennon
C: Conca Jackson Ellis
HF: Deledio Griffiths Martin
F: Lloyd Hampson Riewoldt(Floating)
R: Maric Thomas Cotchin
INT: Vlastuin Grimes McDonough Gordon

As I said in an earlier post, this 22 has grunt, skill, speed & flexibility. Depending on how things were going you can throw this side around and change things up

I like most of it but Vickery should be forward not Hampson. Dimma wanted two rucks but he didn't expect Griff to step up like he has. I'd be worried without Griff's ruckwork we'd end up with a guy getting 5-6 possies a game and lacking confidence.

Also, I don't believe we need 4 tall defenders. It's a nice luxury to have 4 that are AFL standard (despite Chappy being out of form) but we'd need to make the call on 3 of them each week. Would give us a bit more run. Even if it has to be Grigga for now until someone else is ready.

Would also be hoping that Arnot could take Thomas' place eventually.

 

[This Is Anfield]

I've sifted through all the posts, weighed up the evidence & considered the arguments. and the conclusion is a resounding..................nah yeah maybe!
In reality too soon to tell, most feel he's earned a shot at finding out though.
Improvement from when he arrived, most definately.
Doubts about match day are also concerning some.
Interesting times ahead.

 

[UpTheGuts]

Get a side along the following on the park and I think we'll see a better performance.

B: Morris Astbury Rance
HB: Houli Chaplin Lennon
C: Conca Jackson Ellis
HF: Deledio Griffiths Martin
F: Lloyd Hampson Riewoldt(Floating)
R: Maric Thomas Cotchin
INT: Vlastuin Grimes McDonough Gordon

As I said in an earlier post, this 22 has grunt, skill, speed & flexibility. Depending on how things were going you can throw this side around and change things up

So no room for the guy 5th on the Coleman right now?

 

[cairo tiger]

I've sifted through all the posts, weighed up the evidence & considered the arguments. and the conclusion is a resounding..................nah yeah maybe!
In reality too soon to tell, most feel he's earned a shot at finding out though.
Improvement from when he arrived, most definately.
Doubts about match day are also concerning some.
Interesting times ahead.

nice summary. for me the big one is the game plan and implementing different plans of match day as well as our lack of player development.

 

[This Is Anfield]

nice summary. for me the big one is the game plan and implementing different plans of match day as well as our lack of player development.

Feel it's coming together though, ct - game plan is awesome when on & experience hopefully helps us maintain it more regularly & the players can take ownership of "doing the right thing under pressure'. This is what I believe we are striving for.

 

[_RT_]

So no room for the guy 5th on the Coleman right now?

Nope, Vickery might be 5th in the Coleman but his overall impact on games has been minimal. Averages less disposals marks & tackles than both Jack and Griffiths despite being our go to guy inside F50 for the first 3 games.

Unless Vickerys impact on games becomes much greater before Maric comes back I'd much prefer to go with Hampson and Maric as the deep forward/ruck combo with Griffiths playing the lead up forward role and Jack just floating around doing what Jack does best.

 

[Mr Magic]

Nope, Vickery might be 5th in the Coleman but his overall impact on games has been minimal. Averages less disposals marks & tackles than both Jack and Griffiths despite being our go to guy inside F50 for the first 3 games.

Unless Vickerys impact on games becomes much greater before Maric comes back I'd much prefer to go with Hampson and Maric as the deep forward/ruck combo with Griffiths playing the lead up forward role and Jack just floating around doing what Jack does best.

Think its a question of Hampson or TV and it might be a bit of trial and error or horses for courses. It is important Griffiths gets game time so he develops further and expands his game more around the ground IMO. Griffiths gives us more flexibility plus other options and choices that are not available from the others so unless his form drops I think we have to keep him in

 

[Mr Magic]

The real question for me is has our current list taken us as far as it can.

I am not suggesting a total rebuild like CFC needs but I think we may need some reshaping and far more quality youth to rejuvenate our performances!

We also may have to do a Croad/Hodge like trade if we are so keen on the Hawks example but it should depend on pros and cons on who is available in any particular year

 

[nut]

Gives us the ability to play 2 ruckmen which is what Hardwick wants to do. Griffiths at CHF is a much better option than Vickery as he can clunk a contested grab and kicks it a mile. Hampson/Maric deep in the square where they either take the mark or provide a spill for Lloyd/Martin/Deledio/Cotchin to hit at pace. Predictable to each other. Jack free to roam where he sees fit to be involved in the play. I also trust Hampson/Maric and Griffiths not to drag their opponent with them into the contest that Jack is going to unlike Vickery.

Can't have Maric and Hampson in the same side ... The same reasons why Oren and Hampson haven't played in the same side. You can't carry a ruck and anymore... How many times has Hampson played firward this season? And what impact has he produced. ZIP... The bloke is a liability unless he is rucking.

 

[tunksy]

The real question for me is has our current list taken us as far as it can.

I am not suggesting a total rebuild like CFC needs but I think we may need some reshaping and far more quality youth to rejuvenate our performances!

We also may have to do a Croad/Hodge like trade if we are so keen on the Hawks example but it should depend on pros and cons on who is available in any particular year

no our list still has plenty of upside. we have vlastuin, conca, ellis, Lennon all needing to get to a consistent level, that will improve us massively.
this year we will have a pretty deep cull and draft kids again unlike the last two years.

 

[tunksy]

Can't have Maric and Hampson in the same side ... The same reasons why Oren and Hampson haven't played in the same side. You can't carry a ruck and anymore... How many times has Hampson played firward this season? And what impact has he produced. ZIP... The bloke is a liability unless he is rucking.

think maric could be playing more time forward/back than hampson. will alsp depend on which teams we are playing. maric is bash and crash hampson is the taller more deft ruck but lacks around the ground presence currently.

 

[_RT_]

Can't have Maric and Hampson in the same side ... The same reasons why Oren and Hampson haven't played in the same side. You can't carry a ruck and anymore... How many times has Hampson played firward this season? And what impact has he produced. ZIP... The bloke is a liability unless he is rucking.

Hampson was brought in as support to Maric and the plan has always been to play him and Maric together, unfortunately that hasn't been able to happen due to Maric being injured.

As for Orren and Hampson not having played in the same side, that was because Griffiths had been used as support for Hampson, same as he was used as support for Orren against the Dogs. When Maric comes back in a choice is going to be made. One of Griffiths Hampson Maric or Vickery will miss out as only 3 of them can play in 1 side.