Have we addressed our needs this offseason?

We were deficient in 5 areas:
1. Ruck depth
Have picked up the best kid going, we are still light on for 2013....but not carrying spuds now

2. Forward potency

Losing Dawes and gaining Lynch is basically all square....but the improvement will hopefully come from the LTIs of 2012 - Krak, Macaffer, Didak

3. Speed

Speed is over-rated, you can move the ball quicker if you have good users of the footy....look at Sydney and Hawthorn - Mitchell, Sewell, Kennedy, Jack, J.Bolton, R.Okeefe, Hodge they aren't quick....but they are gun mids.....Young is hardly quick, no upgrade over Wellingham in pace

4. Kick ins
I am not as optimistic re Russell as most....think that M.Clarke or M.Williams may come on and make a spot their own, and both are good users of the pill. It will be an entire side confidence type issue too..

5. Inside ball
L.Ball is the big addition, also full year to Pendles will be a massive improvement on his 2nd half of the year.

Im so happy for you. Have a medal.

How they fit Lake into the side will be interesting...

Schoenmakers played all 25 games last year, does he now make way for a 31 yr old Lake?? What impact would that have long term, Schoey is clearly the Hawks best KPD prospect for the future.

Or do you play them both, and then a guy like Stratton or Suckling makes way.....will change their dynamic completely....and pretty optimistic to think that Lake @ 31 will be at his best.

Tis more than just them....
Krak, Macaffer and even BJ, Didak and Clarke will hopefully provide more, and at the very least will be pushing guys like Fasolo, Seedsman, Blair, Sinclair, Elliott to keep their place in the 22.

Can expect better seasons from Pendles, Thomas, Reid, N.Brown and Cloke.

Apart from Beams and Sidey, which players actually had great 2012 seasons, or would count 2012 as a good year compared to their normal standard??

Still think that Goldsack is our best match-up for Buddy, has the agility, reach, pace to try and match him....

In 2012 Taz was in and out of the team, was never a vital member.
In 2012 Dawes was average at best.

They are not big losses.

I th

Agree with most of that. I think we have closed the gap on Hawthorn. Cloke did have a birthday in our last encounter and I can see Lake nullifying him a bit, certainly won't kick as many as he did in the Q final..
Mitchell is the one that kills us, I'd like to see him tagged a bit tighter.
Tarrant is gone and can't try to go Mike Tyson on Buddy hopefully Brown is up to the job.
Rioli always murders us and made us look slow in defense, hoping J Russell can shut him down, anyone seen Russell play on Rioli when Carlton play Hawthorn?

Probably Shoenmakers makes way. Maybe Stratton. Preseason will tell us more.

I've never rated Shoenmakers at all. He's a poor man's Grant Birchall constantly played out of position. 1v1 is poor and should never have been given those monster forwards at any stage. It's just not his game. He's more a rebounding defender who should play more mid size if at all.

Lake while his form last season was on and off I think will be a big asset in that back half if he gets any kind of form going. Much less pressure on him with less ball entry than was the case in that developing Western Bulldogs team and is big with his 1v1 play and rebounding game. I don't think anyone expect Lake to be playing career best footy but he won't need to and with a solid preseason just needs to play consistent football. He'll still have his game.

Krakouer was playing in the finals. Played some good footy too. I'd be happy if he can continue that late season form into next season.

Is Caff best 22? BJ? Clarke? I'm not betting on it.

Didak was playing and playing well and actually felt he was underutilised this season with his footskills a highlight.

Pendles, Thomas, Reid, N.Brown and Cloke will all be better. I agree. Sidebottom I'd say the same about with his second half poor.

Goldsack on Franklin is interesting and has the attributes given the pace and closing speed. Don't think he would be strong enough 1v1 to go with him though and while Franklin isn't normally a contested marking target I think Franklin could take advantage of Goldsack in this way with his clear strength and power advantage. I'd back Keeffe in first if I had to back anyone in to even compete with him. Franklin still kicked 5 goals on him but I never felt he was out of the contest and I feel anyone else would concede 8+, Goldsack included.

Tarrant while he was below standard in 2012 was a critical matchup v Franklin. He was one of the few players in the league who could compete with him in the air, at ground level and 1v1 and losing him hurts us directly in the matchup v Hawthorn significantly.

Lynch is an upgrade on Dawes I agree.

Young I think might be a slow starter but is a close enough replacement for Wellingham, if a better team given he can play a more unique role for our team.

I'm still not seeing how we make the 6 goals difference up though. I don't necessarily see Hawthorn as so much a better quality team as a team that matches up well specifically against Collingwood. Mitchell and Sewell can take advantage on the inside against our inside mids who are more finesse types as opposed to hard at it mids - though Ball will help. Then Franklin I think next year has a greater advantage than ever without Tarrant to man him. Is Lake not a step up from Shoenmakers?
We are better with our list changes next year and those players who had below standard seasons are capable of producing better seasons, but does this make us 6 goals better? I wouldn't think so at this stage though injuries can change things with Hawthorn potentially vulnerable with their less not as deep as previously.

Nathan Brown is one of the worse matchups for Franklin. Franklin kills him when the ball hits the ground and what makes Franklin so dangerous is his ability once the ball hits the ground to pounce with that second effort that is quicker than any defender can handle. Franklin can go for 8 on him without much trouble, and that's with the expectation that Brown comes back a better player next season with that extra preseason into his knee.

Lake will make a difference on Cloke. Shoenmakers can get ragdolled but Lake sure won't.

Toovey has always been a really excellent matchup for Rioli and is the man for the job. No doubt. The only guy on our list with the pace and agility to match Rioli. But no I've never seen Russell matchup on Rioli.

Well at least we know that Travis is going to play every game and not get injured, because we dont seem to anyone who is even remotely in the ball park when it comes to replacing him. Maybe we're going to stick together 2 or 3 or the midgets that we have an over-abundance of......a bit like a lego set...a sinclair and an elliot ...join em and get a replacement cloke...

Grundy is our replacement Cloke mate

Prefer to see our players get them.

Schoey must be rated internally at Hawthorn as he was the main KPD for every game in 2012, he was looking ok at times for a bloke who is yet to play 50 games...why would you invest so much time into a guy to then simply cast him aside??

Be interesting to see how Lake impacts the Hawthorn backline.

Krak had one good game, against the Hawks in the QF, his other 3 were quiet...as expected really given he had no games all year.
Didak had no continuity, as soon as he played a couple of good games he would be injured again.
Clarke I am bullish about, think second year back in the system may bring some good return.

All five of them basically had rubbish seasons....all five could be expected to offer us plenty more in 2013.

Five blokes who are keys to our side, and all would be expected to be better in 2013....there is your 6 goal difference!

Yeah Taz matched Buddy well in 2011, last year he fought hard but had to resort to scragging as he lost a yard of pace. Taz wouldn't have been the answer for Buddy in 2013.

Goldsack has all the attributes...Buddy isn't a power marking forward....he gets his goals from his agility.

Two more upgrades.

Better seasons from Pendles, Thomas, Reid, Cloke, Ball and N.Brown.
Lynch providing an actual second forward marking option.
Our forward depth - Krak, Macaffer, Didak - actually playing some senior footy will be good too.

There is your 6 goals.

I don't have the stats here but I'd imagine we were a 6 goal better side in 2010 and 2011. Did you see us becoming six goal worse side? I'm confident that with a decent run of injuries we can make up most of if not all of that. Theoretically we should be getting stronger if anything with the age of our core. Also I'd say about 5 of the Hawks top 10 players are heading into the later stages of their careers while most of our best players are still on the rise (Jolly is our biggest risk in this regard). Without looking it up I may be way off but I can't be buggered trying to find evidence on my phone so I'm just gonna wing it

I think Hawthorn have found our measure because they have about 4 or 5 individual players who - when they get off the leash, murder us. It's more about this than their overall 22 being that much better than ours. These players are: Mitchell, Sewell, Lewis, Franklin, Rioli. Similar to the almost ill-fated 2010 GF 1. We were the better side overall but were monstered by: Goddard, Hayes, Fisher (and Tip Rat in the last q).

This suggests that we still have problems clamping down on - opposition tough inside mids and zippy/unpredicatble forwards (read Harry O'Brien - one on one issue).

I'm being heroically optimistic that the Hawks will come down a peg next year due to a reasonable share of injuries, a tough draw, an almost premiership hangover (like the Saints) where they begin to suffer psychologically. Despite all their bravado in the papers, I think losing flag opportunities hits Hawthorn hard because of their sense of natural entitlement. They will be hurting, but not all of them may convert it into a positive hurt.

So ... back to the issue(s) at hand - inside mid: Dwyer sounds promising (thanks KM). The only other younger option that jumps out at me is Pongracic. How do people feel about him?

Your a generous man Dopple.

Lynch is a massive upgrade on 2012 Dawes.

Russell will come in and make a difference imo has a LOT more upside then Marty, Williams and Maxwell/Johno as a HBF.

My insult in the last post was a joke.. clearly I am a collingwood supporter as well - if you can't tell sarcasm then that's your loss. There's a real insult, jokes aside!

Most of the stuff that's been mentioned recently, in particular knightmare is spot on. Of course it is not one particular area that is of concern, there is a few little deficiencies that make the overall output less than what they have been previously (2010-2011). But inside mids is probably the critical component. You can only compare against the benchmark, and they were the two sides that competed in this years Grand Final, and to a lesser extent Adelaide.

Adelaide's backline was inexperienced and shallow with the eventual injuries to Talia etc. But their greatest improvement came from contested possession, rightfully mentioned tackle pressure around the stoppage and overall clearance work. Flashy outsiders only come into the game when they are allowed time and space to showcase their skills and strengths, a strong quartet of midfielders allows that to happen. The Swans are a great example, and geelong during their 5 years of dominance are also a good example.

As for the net gain, trying to sound academic mumbo jumbo, there was no net gain as a result of players replacing ball. We play a results driven sport - with Ball playing we Played in 2 Grand Finals (10,11) and lost a preliminary final convincingly in 2012 - we got worse. So overall, based on pure result, we were at a 'net loss' or however you want to put it. Quite frankly I couldn't care less, because I know what I am saying is right. To the overall structure of Collingwood, having a player of Luke Ball's capabilities and class improves us by 5 goals.

Johnson, I obviously agree with your point 100% because I've been banging on about it now on a variety of threads. But I would extend the problem to the wider issue that Ball has realistically only got a good 2-3 years left of his best footy (given his history of injuries). I would like to see an understudy beginning his apprenticeship this year. I don't see him.

I see your point re Ball, unfortunately his type are rarer than hens teeth.

Hawthorn played Shoenmakers because he does provide some rebounding. But he is a double edged sword. He can equally concede plenty the other way with his weak 1v1 play.

Simply put Hawthorn have nothing with regards to key defenders. They have Gibson who is great as a 3rd man in but that whole key defence group has always been weak and undersized these past seasons.

They do rate Shoenmakers highly internally which they can, perhaps he works hard on the track, but a bit like with Zac Dawson while a very different player he isn't necessarily a key defender you win with or want to build a backline around with his play relatively poor when you look at most backlines around the AFL.

Krakouer I thought was good in all of his game and I was very happy with his play in those return games. Until that final v Hawthorn he didn't have a major impact on the stats sheet but he was lively every time he had it and did something with it every time. He had not lost a step and was still managing to do his best work - creating space in situations where he had no right to, to allow him to get the ball off effectively and use it in a damaging way. I very much liked his game on return and in my mind he was playing clear best 22 football.

Didak did have his injury issues and wasn't at his best but he was miles better than 2011. In 2011 his kicking completely lacked consistency and he couldn't find a target. 2012 was a different story and he got his kicking back and started using it like he used to. Turning 30 this year will Didak be much better than last year? If he can build that endurance back up perhaps but I see him as much the same player where he was best 22 but will have to be nursed through a season and will likely again be used as a sub at times as needed.

Clarke I'm not as confident in. I like his work ethic and I think he will have a big preseason and will leave nothing on the track but I don't see who he goes past and still has his issues I don't see him being able to resolve - ability in close? doesn't win his own ball. 1v1 ability poor and can get pushed off the ball too easily even by smaller opposition with his bodywork poor. Can't handball on his left at all and can get caught for a tackle far too easily. His endurance will be right up there and his kicking skills on his left are near elite I would argue but I see him as more a solid depth option as opposed to a fixture in our best 22.

And i agree with you whole heartedly, which is why I think we needed to target a genuine inside mid at either 18, 19 or 20. And I think we maybe could have got a decent one. But I am no draft expert, and if I was then i'd be getting paid the big bucks!

Just need to have faith in the plan that obviously have in place.

Lonergan was the man. I placed a voodoo curse on Gold Coast for stealing him at 13. But yeah, in the end you just have to have faith in the now very extensive & well-resourced Collingwood Brains Trust & to be honest, Lonergan (and others) going earlier was probably what meant we got Grundy which was what allowed us to address an even bigger succession hole. Let's hope someone they turn over in the rookie can act the inside plough. Otherwise, my cunning plan is to start stealing some of these boys back from GC and GWS in a year or two through free agency!

it might be better to stick with gluing two midgets together...

I know this sounds crazy as shit but didn't Jackson Paine play a fair bit as a midfielder? What's stopping him from developing as one at the moment. He is a bull of a kid, at the moment doesn't have the aerobic capacity to go for a whole game in the middle, but he is the same height as Pendles and Kennedy... Is there any scope there if anyone saw him as a junior?

From what i've seen he isn't great in traffic or have enough agility to go through the midfield... but i didn't see much of him as a junior. Its an interesting thought though.

Nope, stay away from the midfield.

His main strength is his sticky hands and his ability to hit the contest and split packs. He really isn't the type to do his work as a midfielder where the game requires quick thinkers of not only hand/foot but by mind.

He is a key forward and should be left to develop as one which he will- hence the club allowing Dawes to move on.

I am not sure where all this "need for an inside mid" is coming from. I don't think we need an inside mid as much as we need a defensive mid, or atleast a defensive minded mid. Ball can be that player, but I agree with others that it would be great to develop a run with player who can shut down on an opposition player when they start to fire up. Beams and Pendlebury are good inside ball winners, Swan can be too. Luke Ball is a good inside ball winner as well. Winning the contested ball count wasn't a problem for us last year, our problem was that too many of our midfielders were unaccountable (SWAN) and didn't want to work hard in both directions. They also paid very little attention to their opponent. We also overused handball through the midfield, and lacked line breakers to feed the ball off to.
I don't think Goldsack is a forward, even now. I would prefer him in the backline and to have a guy like MaCaffer in the forward half. My idea would be to change Maxwell into a run with player in the midfield and then the side would look like this:

Toovey, Brown, O'Brien
Shaw, Reid, Goldsack
Beams, Pendles, Sidebottom
Swan, Cloke, Thomas
MaCaffer, Lynch, Krakouer
Jolly, Ball, Maxwell

Blair, Fasolo, Young sub: Didak

Johnson, Russell, Clarke, Seedsman, Kennedy, Williams, Elliot, Keefe, Paine and Sinclair provide pretty reasonable back ups. Also Hudson would be a great back up for Jolly too.

Of course I don't think the team will stay like the above one for the year, and there is an excellent chance that the best 22 will change numerous times with form and injuries, but at least looking at that group of players that are out of the best 22, it is exactly what we want, pressure on players to perform, to chase and tackle and do the defensive things that you need to do. Last year we never had that pressure due to injuries. I think our off season has been fantastic (though I don't like the way Dawes left), and I really think that we are the team to beat in 2013.

Lastly, if guys are thinking of a big bodied player who could be used on the inside, then I think MaCaffer could have the ability to play that role too, assuming his tank was where it needed to be. Caf has great hands and is an excellent tackler in close.

Thanks fellas.

As I said I haven't a clue what he is like in the middle just that I had heard he had played there. Guess that is a no then. I think one day we will be seeing more Goodes-sized mids and more Tippett-sized forwards, going to be scary.