Autopsy Hawks vs Cats - Another epic is written in the book of freakin' Epic.

[Phil McCreviss]

I have never labelled any player soft so I really fail to understand why you would even ask me that question.

I have though said that he appears to be off the boil, that he has been quite fumbly and his skill level down based on previous form - unfortunately I don't have the ability to post evidence of this but I'm sure there are others who are more than capable of doing so. I look forward to you or davo posting proof that southern urchin is actually an idiot - back up your statements with evidence, that is what you wrote isn't it phil.


He has an opinion and while I don't agree with that opinion it is certainly not my call to label him an idiot because I disagree and it is these double standards on this board that s**t me. I'm not denying there have been some serious over reactions following this game but there are definitely a few posters on here that are seriously condescending towards other posters should anyone dare to have an opinion that is not one they agree with and are quite happy to post their snide little comments with what seems to be with immunity from mods and yet others are shut down very quickly and quite frankly it's tiring.

Refer to the thread title. That's what I (and a lot of the members on this board too) didn't agree with. Calling someone a make believe tough guy when they have proven themselves time and again for this club is grossly unfair. Sure, players are in and out of form but calling them weak is well below the belt imo. This is not directed to you but that's what needs to be addressed.

I would have had a lot more respect for Southern Urchins if he had balanced his argument with the pros and cons of what Lewis brings to the team rather than this protected species rubbish. Infact I'd apply that rule to all of our players.

 

[EightyNineChamps]

Don’t post often but I am disappointed with the loss. Had a chance to watch the whole game again on IQ. A lot of posters have listed some valid reasons we lost.

IMO ONE of the reasons we have struggled/lost in the last 2 years (granted there has not been too many times), it is because our transition/ball movement from defence into attack has been broken down. I have posted this before and will say it again, man for man, we are a poor marking side. Seriously who is a decent mark for his size ? Gibson, Gunston , Stratton and then …….??

What does marking have to do with ball movement?

Well when you rely on highly skilled or precision kicking game, you also need to mark the ball. In high pressure games you need to be also have good one or one marking players as the opposition is i) not going to give you space, ii) mark up your linking players very closely, iii) pressure the kickers a lot. So we need to have some players who can mark some balls that are not perfectly delivered or under pressure from defence.

We need to start getting players who are better marks into our side. I am thinking Andersen and ……..??

Contrary to belief, I also think we are missing one tall player in an attacking sense, not just in defence. Last year we had

1 ruckman – Bailey, 1 ruckmen/forward – Hale, 3 tallish forwards – Roughy, Gunston, Franklin

This year:

1 ruckman – McEvoy, 1 ruckmen/forward – Hale, 2 tallish forwards – Roughy, Gunston,

We had Tim Obrien in the first few games but since then no third tall forward. This third tall is important as last year we had Gunston (who marked the ball) and Franklin (who did not mark the ball often but when he did not mark the ball was good enough to dish the ball out) who played the link up marking target across halfback.

We need to have another one or two marking options from half forward/wing. I believe it should be another tall, like Grimley, or a medium like Andersen. (PS: I do not think Tim Obrien or James Sicily is ready, but these players would be perfect for these roles as well).

I could not articulate this better.

Geelong gave us a lesson in how to put pressure on the kicker the result was often haphazard kicks in hope, close down space on the linking players causing either a spill or a contested mark for them. On too many occasions we were then burnt on the rebound.

Once they had the ball even though their overall kicking skills may not be the quality of the Hawks they rarely turned it over due to their superior marking strength in one on ones around the ground.

Yes, the Hawkins/Cheney(not his fault) match up contributed greatly but the fact remains we are not great in the aerial sense. This will not be something that can be quickly remedied.

Still very hopeful of pulling off the big one but on seeing the Cats so far we would be better off avoiding them in any cut throat final (I don't subscribe to the theory that we will continue to beat them when it counts)

 

[Southern Urchins]

I would have had a lot more respect for Southern Urchins if he had balanced his argument with the pros and cons of what Lewis brings to the team rather than this protected species rubbish. Infact I'd apply that rule to all of our players.

I outlined my reasons twice, you decided to play the man instead of rebut them. When that failed, mods closed the thread. (unlike the ones bagging Hodge, Rough and Suckling)

You can still rebut them if you like. And further to those as I've said previously, the Harbrow hit did a lot more damage than I think even Jordan realises. It changed his mindset. And frankly, I don't blame him. But it is what it is.

 

[Bumpswithagrin]

You walked out of there thinking we can beat these guys and then we went on to lose the next 10 games in a row to them?

I'd hate to see how we go against Geelong when our supporters aren't confident..

2008, have you forgotten which match we won against them that year?

 

[Max Powers]

Well the MRP have looked at the game and no charges have been made on both sides.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-04-22/schneider-accepts-a-week

 

[Faraway Hawk]

Every time we lose to Geelong I console myself saying " We will beat them when it matters".

 

[Procrastinator35]

Lewis, Roughead, Hodge, Rioli & Birchall all have one thing in common....They are all excellent players & a part of our leadership group.....None of them could be described as soft or Squibs!...However, when it comes to playing against Geelong all 5 of these blokes are the principal culprits for us chocking it up big time. They all get the frighteners on & freeze....The same can be said for Clarko & his coaching box!....The problem lies at the head of the club & our kids prove this by being able to rise to the occasion where our veterans & coaches cannot.

These blokes are supposed to be the Equal of Bartel, Johnson, Selwood & Hawkins, yet time & again they fail miserably against this mob....Geelong are made to look good by us thru our inept leadership group & insipid coach, who continually allow themselves to be bullied & pushed around by the Cats...It has gotten beyond the joke!....How can a player of Roughead's stature & ability continually allow himself to be dominated by Taylor Time & again without even raising a whimper is beyond me....More incredulous still, is how Clarko continues to persist with him in the same position & on the same bloke...I've heard of ostriches with their heads in the sand before but this situation is beyond the pale!

It is time for Clarko to admit that he & the leadership at Hawthorn are clueless against this mob!...Until a fundamental shift in Game day Strategy & psychological approach to this game takes place, then we are resigned to the same fate.

Assign all 5 of these blokes a challenge to take head on a fellow Geelong leader & beat him....No more soft-utensil bullshit game plan to hide behind from now on!...We as supporters are sick of it!

 

[badgrill]

I outlined my reasons twice, you decided to play the man instead of rebut them. When that failed, mods closed the thread. (unlike the ones bagging Hodge, Rough and Suckling)

You can still rebut them if you like. And further to those as I've said previously, the Harbrow hit did a lot more damage than I think even Jordan realises. It changed his mindset. And frankly, I don't blame him. But it is what it is.

Take 2...

I can't recall the game but just recently he went back with the flight and took a gutsy mark, and the commentator mentioned the Harbrow thing, and how a lesser man would've pulled out with good reason. But he didn't.

I wish I remembered which game it was and I'd post footage.

I'm sure subconsciously it must still have some affect - which makes him even gutsier in my books!

 

[eldorado]

The fact the individual threads bagging Roughead, Suckling and Hodgey have not been locked for the same reason as the Lewis thread does not strengthen your case at all.

Just saying.


(sorry for being a smart arse mods, just proving my point about the Lewis bias around here)

While I don't know which mod locked the thread, or why, I can assure you it would not have been because of any opinion you held about Lewis.

 

[Phil McCreviss]

Lewis, Roughead, Hodge, Rioli & Birchall all have one thing in common....They are all excellent players & a part of our leadership group.....None of them could be described as soft or Squibs!...However, when it comes to playing against Geelong all 5 of these blokes are the principal culprits for us chocking it up big time. They all get the frighteners on & freeze....The same can be said for Clarko & his coaching box!....The problem lies at the head of the club & our kids prove this by being able to rise to the occasion where our veterans & coaches cannot.

These blokes are supposed to be the Equal of Bartel, Johnson, Selwood & Hawkins, yet time & again they fail miserably against this mob....Geelong are made to look good by us thru our inept leadership group & insipid coach, who continually allow themselves to be bullied & pushed around by the Cats...It has gotten beyond the joke!....How can a player of Roughead's stature & ability continually allow himself to be dominated by Taylor Time & again without even raising a whimper is beyond me....More incredulous still, is how Clarko continues to persist with him in the same position & on the same bloke...I've heard of ostriches with their heads in the sand before but this situation is beyond the pale!

It is time for Clarko to admit that he & the leadership at Hawthorn are clueless against this mob!...Until a fundamental shift in Game day Strategy & psychological approach to this game takes place, then we are resigned to the same fate.

Assign all 5 of these blokes a challenge to take head on a fellow Geelong leader & beat him....No more soft-utensil bullshit game plan to hide behind from now on!...We as supporters are sick of it!

Stopped reading right there. The fact you want Clarkson to admit he is clueless is....extraordinary.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Stopped reading right there. The fact you want Clarkson to admit he is clueless is....extraordinary.

Against the Cats......Care to argue the point or just in for the cheap points my friend?

 

[Phil McCreviss]

Take 2...

I can't recall the game but just recently he went back with the flight and took a gutsy mark, and the commentator mentioned the Harbrow thing, and how a lesser man would've pulled out with good reason. But he didn't.

I wish I remembered which game it was and I'd post footage.

I'm sure subconsciously it must still have some affect - which makes him even gutsier in my books!

Was against Fletcher a couple of weeks ago at Etihad mate. Didn't flinch. Fletcher could have put him in to next week too. Was a gutsy act considering what happened there a few years back.

 

[Phil McCreviss]

Against the Cats......Care to argue the point or just in for the cheap points my friend?

Why would Clarkson admit to something that is blatantly not true? He beat them in a preliminary final so obviously he does have an idea on how to beat them.

Secondly what purpose would it serve if he came out and said it? If my team's coach ever said that, I'd be expecting him to resign at the same time because it indicates incompetence. Fancy the latest premiership coach admitting he has no idea against Geelong when he beat them on the way to our 11th flag.

 

[krisholio14]

If they swing a tall forward and a small back, how is our strategy of "a smaller forward line" and "Lake catching everything in defense because Roughead is on Hawkins" going to be effective, is what I'm saying?

Them making that move effectively nullifies your move. Yes it gives us a different look. But that may or may not work.

I'd be more comfortable with Lake coming in and manning Hawkins than overhauling our structure in reaction to a narrow loss.

You had three guys who could play ruck out there yesterday, what I was surprised at was that McEvoy didn't follow McIntosh everywhere. I mean, he's not a great ruckman per se, but he is great at dropping back into the hole and taking defensive marks. He could have gone into the middle when McIntosh went in there, and then you could have had Hale and Roughead changing off Simpson. Would have been interesting to see how we would have responded if you'd forced big Daws to be more accountable with your big fellas switching on and off him all day and trying to isolate his man up forward.

 

[badgrill]

Was against Fletcher a couple of weeks ago at Etihad mate. Didn't flinch. Fletcher could have put him in to next week too. Was a gutsy act considering what happened there a few years back.

That's the one. And that's pretty much exactly what was said by the commentator at the time.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Why would Clarkson admit to something that is blatantly not true? He beat them in a preliminary final so obviously he does have an idea on how to beat them.

Secondly what purpose would it serve if he came out and said it? If my team's coach ever said that, I'd be expecting him to resign at the same time because it indicates incompetence. Fancy the latest premiership coach admitting he has no idea against Geelong when he beat them on the way to our 11th flag.

Mate, first of all, the comment was tongue in cheek. Clarko has no need to admit that he is Clueless when it comes to beating Geelong as it is all out in the open forum, for the football public to see with their own eyes....There is no secret about it. Yesterday's events merely served to once again ram home the point....Until the penny drops & he finally comes up with a radical alternative for Cats games then expect the same again....

And don't use the Prelim final as a point of difference either....We had an extra week off, they were missing blokes & we still needed Varcoe to miss his shot to fall over the line. 12 out of 13 is not a coincidence, its an epidemic!...Clarko & our leadership group are shot when it comes to Geelong & we all know it!

 

[Dipper]

I have posted this before and will say it again, man for man, we are a poor marking side. Seriously who is a decent mark for his size ? Gibson, Gunston , Stratton and then …….??

We need to start getting players who are better marks into our side. I am thinking Andersen and ……..??

Contrary to belief, I also think we are missing one tall player in an attacking sense, not just in defence. .

I agree on the marking but had thought we'd made some strides in this area. We have Lake on the FB line then as you say Stratton and Gibson. McEvoy gives us an outlet as does Hale further forward.Unfortunately Roughead isn't grabbing too many recently. Anderson and Hallahan are good marks for their size and I really think that they are best 22, I will be more confident facing Geelong next time if those 2 along with Shiels and Lake are playing.
On your last point I think we'll be looking at Schoenmakers, if he plays back he doesn't really take marks like Lake but having them both play frees up Gibson for his third man role, maybe Schoey takes the rucks.If he plays forward he gives us an option probably more leading to the ball than taking contested grabs.

I hope I'm not being overly optimistic but I really do see us as much harder to dominate in midfield with Anderson and Hallahan playing regularly.We could stick Langford on Selwood and Shiels on SJ and with Lake on Porky bollocks maybe we dominate a majority of the game.

 

[436hilly]

I agree on the marking but had thought we'd made some strides in this area. We have Lake on the FB line then as you say Stratton and Gibson. McEvoy gives us an outlet as does Hale further forward.Unfortunately Roughead isn't grabbing too many recently. Anderson and Hallahan are good marks for their size and I really think that they are best 22, I will be more confident facing Geelong next time if those 2 along with Shiels and Lake are playing.
On your last point I think we'll be looking at Schoenmakers, if he plays back he doesn't really take marks like Lake but having them both play frees up Gibson for his third man role, maybe Schoey takes the rucks.If he plays forward he gives us an option probably more leading to the ball than taking contested grabs.

I hope I'm not being overly optimistic but I really do see us as much harder to dominate in midfield with Anderson and Hallahan playing regularly.We could stick Langford on Selwood and Shiels on SJ and with Lake on Porky bollocks maybe we dominate a majority of the game.

Agree with Lake( did not mention him as I was more interested in forward options although based on yesterdays evidence both Lake and Shoenmakers would have helped), and maybe McEvoy although this is purely on reputation rather than evidence due to the small number of games he has played with us.

I am also optimistic. Good teams, and that’s what we are, do not need to include too many players to change a feature/characteristic. For example at the end of 2012, we were ‘judged’ to be a slow, one paced team that could not break the lines as well as run out games. In 2013, we simply added Hill and waited for natural improvement in Smith and Shiels' in running ability, tweaked the game plan a little and suddenly we were a very good running team!!

We just need to include 2 or 3 better marking players, they do not have to be strictly ‘tall’ players, just better at marking than their opponents. Then we need to be smart enough to keep targeting them again and again and again. (Unlike what we do now – which is to keep expecting Poppy to mark above his head under pressure)

 

[benneth]

I refuse to attend another Hawthorn Geelong game until Hawthorn get over whatever it is that prevents them from playing to their ability against Geelong, I go to every game I possibly can and have more or less been to every clash between these two sides in recent years and it is always the same result, end up sitting there getting frustrated not being able to enjoy the game due to our inability to play to our level.

Did you go to the prelim?

 

[Main Man]

Did you go to the prelim?

Yes I did, finals excluded I refuse to attend from now on until they sort their mental demons out.

 

[Samurai Hawk]

After 12 hours sleep, sobering up, cooling down I must offer my apologies to messers hodge,rioli, Lewis,roughead, and other hawks players for my unnecessary , Ill-informed, ungrateful, unsupportive rant...it will not happen again.
Moral of the story: autopsy thread should be "view only" and not contributed to after a disappointing loss and copious amounts of grog under the belt...unless it's positive contribution... Sorry


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Davo23]

An interesting stat: the Hawks had 6 players from their 2008 Grand Final team

The Cats had 9, and their names question whether they really are rebuilding so well, or have they just been able to keep their best players going longer than others?
The Cats players include Johnson, Selwood, Bartel, Enright, Lonergan, Taylor.

They're still their best players.



p.s. I wonder if they still use the supplements that Bomber Thompson introduced?


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[hawkstars]

First thing my colleague asked today "how do you feel after the loss?" I smiled. My response " feels good being the reigning premiers".

 

[Gene Simmons]

I walk away from yesterday's result and take away these points:
1. Based on yesterdays performance, we have much more scope for improvement (team & individual level) compared to Geelong + we have 'starting 18' key players to come in..
2. All 50/50 balls fell in Geelong's players hands all day
3. Based on the above 2 points, we were still a very realistic chance to win this match with 10 minutes remaining.

It isn't all doom & gloom, as much as being undefeated was very appealing, this loss will keep the players 'honest' and hopefully give us all a reality check, supporters included.

 

[Off The Couch]

Refer to the thread title. That's what I (and a lot of the members on this board too) didn't agree with. Calling someone a make believe tough guy when they have proven themselves time and again for this club is grossly unfair. Sure, players are in and out of form but calling them weak is well below the belt imo. This is not directed to you but that's what needs to be addressed.

I would have had a lot more respect for Southern Urchins if he had balanced his argument with the pros and cons of what Lewis brings to the team rather than this protected species rubbish. Infact I'd apply that rule to all of our players.

And I posted in that thread that I thought the thread was out of line and personal attacks were uncalled for and if they had anything to say to use the autopsy thread - the same thing should have happened to the hodge and roughead threads.

You don't like, quite rightly, someone labelling tazz as soft but fully support davo23 calling someone an idiot - can you not see the hypocrisy of that statement. This is a forum for footy discussion and whether they be positive or negative opinions it should never get personal - not towards the players or those who post here.