Autopsy Hawks vs Cats - Another epic is written in the book of freakin' Epic.

[mainehawk]

^^^^ Be happy Hawkers!

 

[tommyk72]

Didn't get the chance to see the game, but followed the first half on radio and the second on the phone.

I'm wondering if people think we were going at 100% trying to win the game? To me the first sign was that Lake wasn't picked. If this was a final he'd be playing.

But what i'm interested in are the roles that people played. How often were our A-graders at centre clearances? I note Langford had the second most clearances for the game insinuating he spent a fair bit of time in there. I also heard on the radio that McEvoy was forward a fair bit and that Hale played a lot in the ruck. How much was Sammy/Cyril/Hodge through the middle as opposed to their flanking roles? Was Roughie ever run through the middle at all?

I'm not overly concerned about the loss - more of a big picture guy - but i'd be interested if we lost because we played like crap or whether we were still testing our structures, etc.

Any insights?

 

[Cynic]

Didn't get the chance to see the game, but followed the first half on radio and the second on the phone.

I'm wondering if people think we were going at 100% trying to win the game? To me the first sign was that Lake wasn't picked. If this was a final he'd be playing.

But what i'm interested in are the roles that people played. How often were our A-graders at centre clearances? I note Langford had the second most clearances for the game insinuating he spent a fair bit of time in there. I also heard on the radio that McEvoy was forward a fair bit and that Hale played a lot in the ruck. How much was Sammy/Cyril/Hodge through the middle as opposed to their flanking roles? Was Roughie ever run through the middle at all?

I'm not overly concerned about the loss - more of a big picture guy - but i'd be interested if we lost because we played like crap or whether we were still testing our structures, etc.

Any insights?

Of course we were 100% trying. We didn't risk Lake because it is was just a home & away game but that doesn't mean we weren't trying 100%.

In regards to our A-Graders in the midfield we need to accept that our A-Graders are all getting long in the tooth and having bodies smashed up against them in the centre early on will cost us dearly at the end of the game.

It's certainly not the end of the world (Not what I was thinking 48 hours ago though) but we definitely came to win...we just couldn't stop Hawkins or Johnson...or break all the GOD DAMN BEAR HUGS being applied *Cough*

 

[Spursfan]

Roughy is a great player against weak to medium opposition, does he ever play well in the big games , has he ever dominated in a final. The loss of franklin now means the oppositions best defender will go to roughy. Clarkson needs to work out how we can get something out of roughed in the crunch games, most would agree that he has more talent than Hawkins but has he ever done what Hawkins does in the big games, no way, he is one of our leaders and he must stand up if we are to go b2b.

Yeah I agree Rough needs to produce more in big matches, though against the cats he is arguably matched against the best CHB in the game. Whereas if he was say one out against Mitch Duncan or Corey Enright (roughly the same height/weight as Cheney) I would expect him to over power them in marking contests.

 

[Bosk]

Just whipped this up for the Bay, figured I'd post it here too since some of you guys could use a little cheer up.

 

[tommyk72]

Of course we were 100% trying. We didn't risk Lake because it is was just a home & away game but that doesn't mean we weren't trying 100%.

In regards to our A-Graders in the midfield we need to accept that our A-Graders are all getting long in the tooth and having bodies smashed up against them in the centre early on will cost us dearly at the end of the game.

It's certainly not the end of the world (Not what I was thinking 48 hours ago though) but we definitely came to win...we just couldn't stop Hawkins or Johnson...or break all the GOD DAMN BEAR HUGS being applied *Cough*

You haven't actually really answered my questions about the tactics and where players were used.

Of course all the players were trying. I'm not suggesting any of them were giving less than 100% (though it seems like some posters believe the attitude left a lot to be desired). However, there is a difference between starting with your A game and playing that 100% of the time and tinkering around the edges when required vs continuing to trial a number of different untested players/combinations of players in certain areas to give experience. In previous games we have seen really interesting mixes of different players being given runs in different positions. Particularly against weaker teams. I'm wondering whether we are still doing this tinkering.

 

[Cynic]

You haven't actually really answered my questions about the tactics and where players were used.

Of course all the players were trying. I'm not suggesting any of them were giving less than 100% (though it seems like some posters believe the attitude left a lot to be desired). However, there is a difference between starting with your A game and playing that 100% of the time and tinkering around the edges when required vs continuing to trial a number of different untested players/combinations of players in certain areas to give experience. In previous games we have seen really interesting mixes of different players being given runs in different positions. Particularly against weaker teams. I'm wondering whether we are still doing this tinkering.

Rioli & Mitchell spent quite a bit of time around the centre circle, Hodge virtually none till the fourth quarter. Roughead almost none at all from what I recall.

McEvoy & Hale were probably 50/50 forward ruck, McEvoy floated back a little but less than usual.

I didn't get the impression we were tinkering but I also didn't get the impression we were trying anything; I think Clarkson just wanted to see how the game style stood up to Geelong and then went for broke to win it in the fourth.

 

[tommyk72]

Rioli & Mitchell spent quite a bit of time around the centre circle, Hodge virtually none till the fourth quarter. Roughead almost none at all from what I recall.

McEvoy & Hale were probably 50/50 forward ruck, McEvoy floated back a little but less than usual.

I didn't get the impression we were tinkering but I also didn't get the impression we were trying anything; I think Clarkson just wanted to see how the game style stood up to Geelong and then went for broke to win it in the fourth.

Thanks. Appreciate the clarification. Clearly it didn't quite stand up

 

[Dixie Flatline]

Roughead went into the ruck to give Hale a chop-out when McEvoy was subbed out.

 

[tommyk72]

Roughead went into the ruck to give Hale a chop-out when McEvoy was subbed out.

Interesting. Did he play as the ruck rover at all? I think he's been pretty bloody good doing that when rotated through.

 

[cryptor]

What if the PF actually was the end to whatever "mental demons" we might've been experiencing?

And that game was the first on a fresh new slate.

And they just happened to beat us because they are a very good team and we are also a very good team but just didn't play well enough on the day to win the game.

What's to say we don't beat them in round 22? What's to say they don't happen to beat us again but we get them the time after that?

Fact is that human brains are wired to look for and associate meaning with patterns. People went on about the streak for ages as being evidence that we were a mentally weak side against them. Now that we've beaten them in a cut throat final and then lost to them in the next H&A game people are again looking for a pattern (steak of losses in H&A games) and completely discounting a perfectly good recent win against them that if anything shows we're anything but mentally weak. If there's anything to take from the pattern it's that more Geelong players than Hawthorn players have the "win at all costs" drive to get up in close games. That's not to say our players are forsaken. It might just mean they need a game with higher stakes to match Geelong's will and drive.

 

[savagelunchbox]

My forwardline would be:

Breust... Gunston... Poppy
Rioli... Burgoyne... Langford

I know people will laugh but watch us destroy them. Rough to play on Hawkins and Lake to catch everything in the air and we will destroy them.

It is that simple for mine. By the way replace Burger in the backline with Spangher and Hallahan in the middle to stay.

Would you still play Hale and McEvoy (or their ruck/fwd equivalent replacements) or would you drop one of them and stick Rough in the ruck to give the other a chop-out and put Lake on Hawkins?

If the former, where does the non-rucking player play in your opinion?

 

[eldorado]

Fact is that human brains are wired to look for and associate meaning with patterns. .

A man after my own heart...

I have taught that to my psychology classes for years; our brain is not a computer, it's a sophisticated pattern-recognition device, designed to help us survive, by quickly applying rules and categorising stimuli with the least input and processing possible.

Generally, it helps us survive well. But sometimes it also help us see meaning in coincidence, follow superstitions, and at its worst, suffer the outright delusions of schizophrenia.

Generally, we don't like isolated stimuli, our brain is hard wired to put them in a context, as part of a greater whole.











***Enrol in Eldo's Online Psych Course Now! Only $899 for a comprehensive 8 week course! Book now to avoid disappointment, as place are limited!***

 

[tommyk72]

***Enrol in Eldo's Online Psych Course Now! Only $899 for a comprehensive 8 week course! Book now to avoid disappointment, as place are limited!***

Sold! Should I just post my credit card details here?

 

[Procrastinator35]

A man after my own heart...

I have taught that to my psychology classes for years; our brain is not a computer, it's a sophisticated pattern-recognition device, designed to help us survive, by quickly applying rules and categorising stimuli with the least input and processing possible.

Generally, it helps us survive well. But sometimes it also help us see meaning in coincidence, follow superstitions, and at its worst, suffer the outright delusions of schizophrenia.

Generally, we don't like isolated stimuli, our brain is hard wired to put them in a context, as part of a greater whole.


***Enrol in Eldo's Online Psych Course Now! Only $899 for a comprehensive 8 week course! Book now to avoid disappointment, as place are limited!***

Alternatively you can visit my 3 step De-Structuralised classes next door entitled: 1. Holism of the mental "Whatever happened to the human soul?"....2. The psyche & Emotions- "Real or imagined?".... & Finally: 3 Behavioural psychology: This topic is split into dual hemispheres entitled: "Is There a ghost in the machine" & "Johnny doesn't live here anymore"!....I end by attempting to unify the two via a thin wedge of corpus Callosum!

The class concludes with a short piece entitled: "John Locke & David Hume have a lot to answer for!"

Ye Olde fashioned sausage sizzle with a gold coin donation follows the conclusion!

Guest speaker The right Honorable Jefferson Kennetson will present his 3 part paper entitled: Geelong: Chapter 1. "Are the Cats in our heads?" Chapter 2 'Curses'- Real or Imagined? & Finally Chapter 3: "Does Clarko have a clue when it comes to the Cats"?

He concludes that as punishment for his abysmal record re all things Geelong, Clarko must enrol in Eldo's Online psych Course forthwith with all classes being compulsory!

 

[JustKickIt]

Sold! Should I just post my credit card details here?

Dont be so damned silly! PM them to me so they are secure!

 

[WillowSF]

In all fairness Clarko has given us two flags and the only team to beat us is Geelong so he isn't doing a too bad a job


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And coincidentally both those years we had excellent key position defensive players in Croad and Lake. Clarkson has been fantastic but again 12 out of 13 losses is not much of a rivalry.

 

[burner1]

In 2013 AC appeared to have got the message - no undersized FBs, two genuine rucks, and no weak links (suckling, young) who struggle under pressure.

In 2014 we've gone a bit away from this - Cheney at fb (although partly due to injuries), suckling and duryea (to a lesser extent) targets underpressure down back and mcevoy, for all his positives will likely never be a great tap ruck, centre square presence.

We've also had way too many poor games in a row to write it off as just a bad day. Geelong is probably the only team in comp that forces the game to be played on their terms. We are unstoppable when we play on our terms - but the cracks appear quickly when we don't - we're very well drilled and organised which generally covers up a lot of our weaknesses. They exploit hodges lack of movement and tendency to play loose and block really well to stop our 3rd man up. With no lake they know they can bomb at in + if they cover birchall we lack line breakers from hb (which are needed if we are always spoiling down back). They know suckling can't stand up to pressure and rioli struggleswith a hard tag. They know roughy is mentally shot when he plays on Taylor. They have the speed and skills to exploit our one paced mids on the break and attack hard through the centre. They have a blueprint to beat us and we've been unable to stop or find similar weaknesses in Geelong.

Our official leaders - hodge, Lewis, roughy - haven't fired a shot in a Geelong game ever or at least since 2008. It's unacceptable and serious blight in all 3. Especially as geelongs leaders always stand up in these games. Every time rough is raised as a potential captain I respond with go watch a Geelong game - is he really captain material? When your leaders are having stinkers it's possible to see why we struggle in these games. We all ourselves to be physically and mentally dominated - we rarely take it up to them (Langford a clear exception)

The few positives were is lake will be back, shiels and Anderson will add some run and hardness through the middle, gunston and breust clearly trouble Geelong - they just need some support from shoey or hopefully rioli. And AC & co have rest of season to work out how to tweak our game style.

 

[SNAITHY]

Alternatively you can visit my 3 step De-Structuralised classes next door entitled: 1. Holism of the mental "Whatever happened to the human soul?"....2. The psyche & Emotions- "Real or imagined?".... & Finally: 3 Behavioural psychology: This topic is split into dual hemispheres entitled: "Is There a ghost in the machine" & "Johnny doesn't live here anymore"!....I end by attempting to unify the two via a thin wedge of corpus Callosum!

The class concludes with a short piece entitled: "John Locke & David Hume have a lot to answer for!"

Ye Olde fashioned sausage sizzle with a gold coin donation follows the conclusion!

Guest speaker The right Honorable Jefferson Kennetson will present his 3 part paper entitled: Geelong: Chapter 1. "Are the Cats in our heads?" Chapter 2 'Curses'- Real or Imagined? & Finally Chapter 3: "Does Clarko have a clue when it comes to the Cats"?

He concludes that as punishment for his abysmal record re all things Geelong, Clarko must enrol in Eldo's Online psych Course forthwith with all classes being compulsory!

I'm also running a class.....in MONGREL. The fundamentals are very basic and revolve around the cave man philosophy that the toughest and most intimidating survive. All Hawks players are required to attend barring Langford, Hallahan and Hodge (ok and Sam). Guest speakers include Dippa and Derm. You can apply all the mamby pamby scientific principles you like, quote a dozen brain surgeons and read from the greatest books of human behaviour and anything else you care to name but I will guarantee you there is not a more horrible thing in life than being scared for your physical safety. Fear makes people do stupid things. It is time. Langers and Boxer are a breath of fresh air for our club.

 

[cryptor]

A man after my own heart...

I have taught that to my psychology classes for years; our brain is not a computer, it's a sophisticated pattern-recognition device, designed to help us survive, by quickly applying rules and categorising stimuli with the least input and processing possible.

Generally, it helps us survive well. But sometimes it also help us see meaning in coincidence, follow superstitions, and at its worst, suffer the outright delusions of schizophrenia.

Generally, we don't like isolated stimuli, our brain is hard wired to put them in a context, as part of a greater whole.











***Enrol in Eldo's Online Psych Course Now! Only $899 for a comprehensive 8 week course! Book now to avoid disappointment, as place are limited!***

I was a little worried when I saw the quote on that post. Was worried someone was going to be calling me out to provide a source on that, which I probably cbf'd finding. Glad it was actually an expert advocating it!

 

[Procrastinator35]

I'm also running a class.....in MONGREL. The fundamentals are very basic and revolve around the cave man philosophy that the toughest and most intimidating survive. All Hawks players are required to attend barring Langford, Hallahan and Hodge (ok and Sam). Guest speakers include Dippa and Derm. You can apply all the mamby pamby scientific principles you like, quote a dozen brain surgeons and read from the greatest books of human behaviour and anything else you care to name but I will guarantee you there is not a more horrible thing in life than being scared for your physical safety. Fear makes people do stupid things. It is time. Langers and Boxer are a breath of fresh air for our club.

Yep....Special guest appearance by Normie Bussell & a lesson in heart, soul & how to bust a gut by Sir Donald Scott!...A tape or 2 on how Freo go about it wouldn't go astray either....Give em back as good as they give out & never take a backwards step.

Watch Hayden Ballantyne when playing the Cats, this little guy has more gumption in him than our entire team put together when concerning all things Geelong....Do you think he gives em any respect....Not on your ******* nelly!

 

[hawker92]

A man after my own heart...

I have taught that to my psychology classes for years; our brain is not a computer, it's a sophisticated pattern-recognition device, designed to help us survive, by quickly applying rules and categorising stimuli with the least input and processing possible.

Generally, it helps us survive well. But sometimes it also help us see meaning in coincidence, follow superstitions, and at its worst, suffer the outright delusions of schizophrenia.

Generally, we don't like isolated stimuli, our brain is hard wired to put them in a context, as part of a greater whole.











***Enrol in Eldo's Online Psych Course Now! Only $899 for a comprehensive 8 week course! Book now to avoid disappointment, as place are limited!***

Only one place available? Take my money Eldo!!

 

[Procrastinator35]

That is the recipe next time against Geelong but replace Schoey with Spang. I would like to see Lake forward regularly this season.

I like the way you think Roger....In fact I'd be rotating Spangher & Lake constantly on Taylor so he is never able to settle or relax & I'd be telling both to be getting into him Big time in a physical sense also....Trouble with our big guys is they never test the Cats mettle, that's a mind-set that MUST change.

Taylor can & does have a melting point....Watch the 08 Grand Final & see him hesitate & cost his team a goal & the match in my opinion, after Ozzie tackles him hard & Dew picks up the pieces & bombs a goal....That's precisely what's been missing when we play the Cats. Give Roughead the challenge to shut Hawkins down & finally earn his keep against this mob!

What Clarko & our coaching box requires is a lesson in lateral thinking, outside the box, way too one dimensional & static for my liking, particularly & most especially against the Cats!...Until they have this in their arsenal things won't improve any time soon & we can kiss the 2014 Flag goodbye already!

 

[Bedi]

I normally takes losses hard, but not this one. Am very, very pissed off not to get the 4 points, but am not concerned one bit about losing to Geelong. Our backline is absolutely decimated, so seriously what do people expect. And besides we had the chance to almost ice the game there in the first 10 mins of the last, but missed a few easy set shots.

most importantly, we now know we can beat them, and yes, when it matters. So do they, and deep down they're s**t scared of us. So bring it on!

 

[Munich]

I normally takes losses hard, but not this one. Am very, very pissed off not to get the 4 points, but am not concerned one bit about losing to Geelong. Our backline is absolutely decimated, so seriously what do people expect. And besides we had the chance to almost ice the game there in the first 10 mins of the last, but missed a few easy set shots.

most importantly, we now know we can beat them, and yes, when it matters. So do they, and deep down they're s**t scared of us. So bring it on!

Sorry to intrude but I find the thoughts of both fans really interesting regarding this rivalry. At the end of the day we should be proud that our clubs have continued to give us such fantastic contests of brilliant footy - how it should be played.

And now to stick up for my boys; we know we can beat Hawthorn when it matters also, the prelim last year could have gone either way like every game we've played since 2008 (bar the 2011 QF). We're not scared I can guarantee you that. I just hope both teams get to meet in the GF, it needs to happen for the good of Football!

Peace.