Hawthorn under acheiving or are they finished?

[Bartel#]

This is not whatsoever a thread deserving to be in Bay13.

Hawthorn have a ridiculous amount of talent for how they have performed in the last 2 years. They have seemed to have lost the hunger since their premiership.

Should they rebuild or will they pull it together with the current group they have because in honesty being a geelong supporter i do think they have the talent. But they seem to be content with the 2008 premiership.

I decided to make this thread as I was giving some banter to a mate about them being knocked out and he said in short "he was still living off 2008".

Is this the same for the players? are they content and satisfied with the one premiership.

Ill do a quick analysis of their team and you tell your opinion and leave bias and hate aside.

Midfield is A/A+. (lacks one or two speedy players)
Hodge - A+
Burgoyne - A/A+
Mitchell - A/A+
Sewell - A
Rioli - A could be better next year.
Young - A (he is so important to this hawthorn side) underated.
Lewis - B+
Ellis - B+
Bateman - B (these days) (2008 an A grader)

Forwards (very difficult to judge) (losing williams hurts more than expected)
This year B+, (2008 A+++)
Franklin - bad attitude. (will kick 100 goals one more time in his career) (a+)
Roughead - (pull your finger out son. So much potential all the attributes to be a gun, learn how to kick straight) (b+)
Osbourne - B
Whitecross C+/B

Backline - C+ / B
Brown B+
Birchall B+
guerra (finished) B
Stratton - will be a gun (B+)
shoenmakers - will be good (b)

you judge should thy start rebuilding?

 

[Ice-Wolf]

Underachieving, but the list has a few holes that need to be filled.

Seem to have been ruined after achieving the Premiership ahead of schedule.

 

[mollyfud]

This is not whatsoever a thread deserving to be in Bay13.

Hawthorn have a ridiculous amount of talent for how they have performed in the last 2 years. They have seemed to have lost the hunger since their premiership.

Should they rebuild or will they pull it together with the current group they have because in honesty being a geelong supporter i do think they have the talent. But they seem to be content with the 2008 premiership.

I decided to make this thread as I was giving some banter to a mate about them being knocked out and he said in short "he was still living off 2008".

Is this the same for the players? are they content and satisfied with the one premiership.

Ill do a quick analysis of their team and you tell your opinion and leave bias and hate aside.

Midfield is A/A+. (lacks one or two speedy players)
Hodge - A+
Burgoyne - A/A+
Mitchell - A/A+
Sewell - A
Rioli - A could be better next year.
Young - A (he is so important to this hawthorn side) underated.
Lewis - B+
Ellis - B+
Bateman - B (these days) (2008 an A grader)

Forwards (very difficult to judge) (losing williams hurts more than expected)
This year B+, (2008 A+++)
Franklin - bad attitude. (will kick 100 goals one more time in his career) (a+)
Roughead - (pull your finger out son. So much potential all the attributes to be a gun, learn how to kick straight) (b+)
Osbourne - B
Whitecross C+/B

Backline - C+ / B
Brown B+
Birchall B+
guerra (finished) B
Stratton - will be a gun (B+)
shoenmakers - will be good (b)

you judge should thy start rebuilding?

We have been rebuilding. Second half of the year suggests we aren't far off the mark!
Why leave out Gibson and Gilham in talking about the backline?
Have some talent coming through, but as Mitchell mentioned, need more of the kids to come through.
Renouf showed a lot this year and is still very young for a ruckman.

Can't take anything for granted but I would expect for a much better year next year.
Personally I am hoping for another injection of kids and only any recycled players that come at little to no cost!

 

[Rors]

Hawthorn 2008 compared to Hawthorn 2010.... My opinion:

1. Lost #1 ruckman - Campbell
2. Lost #1 defender - Croad
3. Lost #1 x-factor - Dew
4. Their game-plan isnt as precise
5. The arrogance & 'unsociable' football has gone
6. Injuries can be a bitch (think StKilda 2004-2006)

Combine all these factors & things get turned on their head!

Fully fit though, top 4 easily!

 

[Dr Awkward]

They are finished imo. They are sort of stuck in no man's land. Not an 'old' side but not many quality young guns coming up either.

Franklin and Roughead will continue to be great foundations for about another 10 years but they need to get much more depth in the midfield and clean out some trash in the list.

 

[rainman06]

Basically, they are s**t.

Leave way too much for too few. Have proven this year that 08 was a perfect storm - a fluke etc. or whatever you wanna call it - and are really just a mediocre football side.

 

[Ledger]

Hawthorn 2008 compared to Hawthorn 2010.... My opinion:

1. Lost #1 ruckman - Campbell
2. Lost #1 defender - Croad
3. Lost #1 x-factor - Dew
4. Their game-plan isnt as precise
5. The arrogance & 'unsociable' football has gone
6. Injuries can be a bitch (think StKilda 2004-2006)

Combine all these factors & things get turned on their head!

Fully fit though, top 4 easily!

Spot on IMO.

Plus when things get tough we put too much expectations and pressure on certain players to get us going in the right path when others don't step up. We've got a few player we need to get rid of, if they don't decide to step aside themselves.

Football department needs a full review, our forward set up is utterly s**t for the most part and also doesn't gain anything when our midfielders don't get the ball in enough and precisely. Not to mention our game plan can be beyond one dimensional at times and doesn't change enough against certain teams.

Good thread although i'm sure it will turn to s**t soon due to trolls. Fact is we won the Premiership in 2008 and IDGAF how we did it; people can claim it was a Bradbury but to those with half a brain, they'd realise we were one of the top 2 teams all season and got over the line where it counts. I've got no doubts every supporter from every team would take a Premiership in the same circumstances we got ours.

 

[hk89]

you judge should thy start rebuilding?

Not based on those assessments, which if they were realistic would have us winning the next 3 flags, but I think you've been overly generous on a few.

Just looking at the midfield Young and Sewell - on present form - are not A graders, Sewell has been in the past, but not this year. Young very important for side, but compared to others at other teams can't see him as an A grader. B for Bateman in present form also generous. I'd give him a C at best, possible C- for the year (possibly body no longer up to it). Unfortunately also very important - like Young - due to lack of pace with other mids, but a poor year IMO. Ellis perhaps a B-, rather than a B+, but hopeful there is still room for improvement there, and could get up to an A- next year.

Peterson and Hooper expected to be important to forward line next year, perhaps not enough games between them this season to give a meaningful grading.

Defence not terrible, but still lacking the tall defender everyone keeps talking about. No assessment on the Rucks? Seen by most as our other big weaknesses.

While I think your assessment is overly generous, still think we can go somewhere with current list, of those mentioned Bateman and Guerra main concerns in terms of needing replacements in the short term. Wouldn't be getting rid of Guerra yet though, absolutely no depth in that part of the ground. Plug a few structural holes during trade week, decent preason with a bit more luck with injuries towards the end of it, Bailey back and able to contribute should mean we can make an impact next year. But given 2009,2010, hard to be completely confident that things will suddenly click into place...

 

[demondavey]

Lets keep it in perspective bitches, this is what they need and are not far off;

1. Key defender to compete in a top 4 side
2. They already have guns - hodge, mitchell, sewell, franklin, roughead, lewis, rioli, bateman
3. They need some luck, every gun team does. hawthorn have been smashed by injuries.
4. They need condfidence - enough talent in that side to win another flag in the next 3 years
5. Young players will be good, need game time but will be good

Look at it this way, hawks win 4-5 extra games early on and they are top 4. They just lacked some consistency and confidence early in the piece. They will be top 5 next year, probably top 4 if things go right.

 

[butchy]

Lets keep it in perspective bitches, this is what they need and are not far off;

1. Key defender to compete in a top 4 side
2. They already have guns - hodge, mitchell, sewell, franklin, roughead, lewis, rioli, bateman
3. They need some luck, every gun team does. hawthorn have been smashed by injuries.
4. They need condfidence - enough talent in that side to win another flag in the next 3 years
5. Young players will be good, need game time but will be good

Look at it this way, hawks win 4-5 extra games early on and they are top 4. They just lacked some consistency and confidence early in the piece. They will be top 5 next year, probably top 4 if things go right.

spot on.
as bad as we were, if we dont let mcevoy kick the goal against us in the draw, and we dont give up a 4 goal lead over Port, think we tied for 4th. lost 2 games against the cats that we should have won, should have at least won one.
Hawks biggest problem is that when everything is right, we are a top 4-5 team, but when we are off.........we might as well be at the bottom of the ladder. It is very frustrating also that when we come up against the big teams, we are physical, unsociable, take risks etc, but when we come against anyone else, we dont take the game or man on at all in anyway.
Only three players attempted to take Freo on yesterday, and they were Young, Burgoyne and Buddy. They looked to create, looked to provide a spark. Didnt work alot (especially for Buddy), but we needed more players with their mindset. Too many players played nervously.

 

[Messenger]

Hawthorn 2008 compared to Hawthorn 2010.... My opinion:


4. Their game-plan isnt as precise

Good point. I think the single biggest issue has been tactics. We were clearly busted by other clubs in 2009 and needed to move on and there are real concerns about the forward structure. I'd say we'll see a night of the long knives with the assistance coaches in coming weeks.

Injuries haven't been a concern for the last 2/3's of the season.

There is some talent coming through, but we will likely be looking for midfield pace come draft time.

This squad still has an opportunity for further success.

 

[Spud Regus]

Basically, they are s**t.

Leave way too much for too few. Have proven this year that 08 was a perfect storm - a fluke etc. or whatever you wanna call it - and are really just a mediocre football side.

We're s**t are we?

We lost to Geelong twice by under a kick
We beat a red hot Collingwood
We beat WB
We drew with the Saints
We beat Sydney
We flogged Carlton

Inconsistent? Yes. s**t? No, that would be the EFC

Now piss off!

 

[UrLordLeper]

Cannot BELIEVE you gave Roughead a B+. That is almost A - you're saying he almost had an excellent year. He was somewhere between ordinary and good this year.. which is C+ B territory.
ANYWAY if everything clicks for the Hawks they can be top 4 next year.. But that is also if the Doggies and Saints drop off as expected.

 

[Scared]

Cannot BELIEVE you gave Roughead a B+. That is almost A - you're saying he almost had an excellent year. He was somewhere between ordinary and good this year.. which is C+ B territory.
ANYWAY if everything clicks for the Hawks they can be top 4 next year.. But that is also if the Doggies and Saints drop off as expected.

I agree. Roughead should be around a B- C+. He may have kicked 40/50 goals (I think) for the year which isn't bad but he has the talent to be kicking 70 a season and should be kicking that many.

 

[Mosca]

Underachieving, but the list has a few holes that need to be filled.

This.

 

[hk89]

ANYWAY if everything clicks for the Hawks they can be top 4 next year.. But that is also if the Doggies and Saints drop off as expected.

If everything clicks we don't need the Doggies and Saints to drop off to be top 4. Our performances against them recently shows that. What we may need is to hope other clubs (including Dogs and Saints) don't start clicking too. Dogs especially need to click big time compared to this year if they hope to keep Hawks from taking their top 4 spot if the Hawks can click (still a big if), dropping off not required, current form would see them drop out.

 

[citizen-erased]

they are an a-grade ruckman from being the best going around.

backline will grow with the likes of gibson, stratton, murphy taking another step etc.
midfield is pure elite. mitchell, hodge, lewis, young, sewell, burgoyne, rioli. very nice
add two gun forwards in buddy and rough, hooper has been good as a crumber, hopefully brown sticks around.

as i watched on sat arvo, i just imagined if sandilands was in their side.

 

[Prem87]

It all starts with defence. Once you lost Croad you were screwed. Get Tarrant and watch the stability and confidence of your team improve.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

Say what you want, but if you take Franklin out of that side, they'd struggle to make the finals ever again.

It's all on Franklin. He's just that good. Look no further than the start of this year when they spent most of their time playing without him, they were 1-6. Soon as they got him back for more than a game or two, they went on a run.

Franklin IS Hawthorn.

 

[worthy]

Hawthorn 2008 compared to Hawthorn 2010.... My opinion:

1. Lost #1 ruckman - Campbell
2. Lost #1 defender - Croad
3. Lost #1 x-factor - Dew
4. Their game-plan isnt as precise
5. The arrogance & 'unsociable' football has gone
6. Injuries can be a bitch (think StKilda 2004-2006)

Combine all these factors & things get turned on their head!

Fully fit though, top 4 easily!

Also
7. Lost #1 runner - Crawford.

Hawks are still suffering from the loss of Croad, he gave our backline stability, what we see now, and the way our game plan has evolved is all around helping the backline, too many times we have near our whole side in the defensive part of the ground, and when we get possession we don't have a "Crawford" making space for the outlet pass, Bateman and Young were also very good at this but have had fitness issues.
Sewell was a magnificent clearance player, and whilst still very good, he's not the same player since the Lloyd hit, his clearance work is not as clean and is less damaging.
Slow movement out of the backline and from clearances is costing our forwards.

Also, a couple of poor drafts are hurting.
Thorp: He should be our CHB or CHF
Dowler: Should be our FF
These two highly rated (junior) KPP's gave Hawthorn a perception of having some great young talent coming through, their success would also have allowed the team to have great flexibility and also help cover the loss of Croad, but alas, it was not meant to be, and every team has a similar story.

What do we need?
A more attacking game plan.
This can only come about by having more condidence in our backline, allowing us to keep more structure upfield.
Can Shoenmakers provide this? I personally don't think Tarrant is the answer, his body doesn't seem up to playing a full season.

A pacey mid who can gut run, with great disposal.

A lead up CHF, someone to create options from the centre to CHF area, a bit like the roll Cloke was playing, (he seems to be playing a bit closer to goal now).

Are we finished? No, we still have a very good core group of players, what we need is for some younger players to push through.

Are we under acheiving? No, we have some holes that need shoreing up, we are about a 5 - 8 team, it would only take a couple of players to step up for us to become a 1 - 4 team. Will it happen? who knows.

 

[WakeUpPies]

If they had that many first graders they would have finished on top and beaten Freo .

Their list is severely overrated, what they do have is 3 or 4 super players carrying them, one of which is nearly impossible to stop.

Edit. Oh please, stop bringing up retirements like Dew and Crawford, Essendon are performing badly because they lost Hird, yep that is their reason for poor performance.

 

[worthy]

If they had that many first graders they would have finished on top and beaten Freo .

Their list is severely overrated, what they do have is 3 or 4 super players carrying them, one of which is nearly impossible to stop.

Edit. Oh please, stop bringing up retirements like Dew and Crawford, Essendon are performing badly because they lost Hird, yep that is their reason for poor performance.

It's not about using retirements as an excuse, it's about not being able to replace certain types of players.
There has been no excuses.

 

[tigers_of_old_08]

Actually over-achieved in 2008, and have never been able to live up to the illusion.

 

[Ants]

If they had that many first graders they would have finished on top and beaten Freo .

Their list is severely overrated, what they do have is 3 or 4 super players carrying them, one of which is nearly impossible to stop.

Edit. Oh please, stop bringing up retirements like Dew and Crawford, Essendon are performing badly because they lost Hird, yep that is their reason for poor performance.

Are you suggesting Essendon didn't perform more poorly this year because we no longer had a decent Lloyd/Lucas/Lovett/McPhee in our side?

Teams go backwards when the players leaving are better than the youngsters replacing them. That is simple fact. That it is unavoidable doesn't detract from the impact it has.

 

[PAFC_1870]

They wouldn't have gotten to the GF without Crawford's leadership... And they sure as he'll wouldn't have won without Dew's big game ability.