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Actually I would say Birdman is probably the orphan boy and girl trying to get revenge on the higher ups, because the bird mask originally came from Caspers secret hideout/sex pad, and its more likely Casper took the orphan girl there (She worked for Casper under a fake name) than Burris.
 
vast said:
Was enjoying the opening scene with Bezzeridis and Velcoro, her talking about waiting her whole for that or looking for that and then slipping up about running out of the woods was good some writing IMO but then she tried to **** him which seemed out of place and ruined the end of the scene despite a small recovery will Velcoro saying she was out of his league anyway lol.

The shootout was pretty good too, felt Woodrough was gonna get it in the end.
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Trying to * him seemed out of place?

Its clearly a coping mechanism for her. She has all this repressed sexual pain that she tries to forget. Maybe she forgets about the damage by normalising sex. I.e by ******* guys like that cop. She doesnt like the guys, its not love its to prove to herself that sex is normal and fine, to hide the past.

So she went into defensive mode with Falcorro and then it was quite beautiful later where she actually had some vulnerability, the pair admitted they both had some anguish in the past and she embraced someone for the first time as a lover and not just to normalise the act in her own mind.
 
Looks like I am alone but I found the Frank/Blake confrontation really badly acted by both, from Frank's loose grip around Blake's neck to Blake's unconvincing tears & reaction once released. & as others have mentioned, Burris just happens to waiting outside that door was, well, 'not good'.

Glad there's only one episode left as I will go out on a limb by suggesting any resolutions will be entirely unsatisfying & Nicy boy will be judged as having one from two...
 

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I'm glad this is a complex show. It doesn't hand feed you the plot. That's good. Keeps the people who aren't actually paying attention with s**t on their face. It's laughable that people are trying to pass off that as a legitimate criticism. It's like marking a piece of work without actually reading it all.

Season 1 is overrated as *. It's only slightly better than season 2. The last 3 episodes of season 1 were no better than the first 3 of season 2. Season 1 had it's strongest episodes from 3 to 5. Season 2 is clearly having it's strongest in 6-8. I didn't mind if the season started slow. It's a noir for godsakes, the mystery is driving the intrigue. Some people fail to realize that the director swapped Rust's pessimistic, sadistic, existential monologues and sub-supernatural for something far more real. Masculinity and identity. It's everywhere. From Paul's denial and sexual disassociating identity displayed when he's sober and when he isn't, to Ray not being able to impregnate his wife, and then a rapist does. Frank's limp dick and trouble in impregnating his wife, Ani who clearly was sexually abused in her youth, having it out on men... Then you tie these characters in with the story and everything else... The sex parties, the rich men abusing drugged up women, to the emasculation of Ben Caspere, having his dick cut off... It's all there. I think a lot of men dislike these themes as it makes them question themselves as a man. Every man can relate to the predominant theme of this season. Evil doesn't have to be in the form of a ritualistic occult like season 1. Evil is within all of us, and is ever present in the structures of society and government, the corruption and authority, a key to their wickedness. That scares me more than some spooky hick incest farmer ever will. This season is all about the past influencing the present.

As for the plot... Classic Chicago style noir. Don't be surprised when characters with barely any screen time resurface in later episodes and you don't remember who it was. That is on you. Not the writing. At the heart of it all, lies a mystery to be solved.
 
Always Ballin said:
I'm glad this is a complex show. It doesn't hand feed you the plot. That's good. Keeps the people who aren't actually paying attention with s**t on their face. It's laughable that people are trying to pass off that as a legitimate criticism. It's like marking a piece of work without actually reading it all.

Season 1 is overrated as ****. It's only slightly better than season 2. The last 3 episodes of season 1 were no better than the first 3 of season 2. Season 1 had it's strongest episodes from 3 to 5. Season 2 is clearly having it's strongest in 6-8. I didn't mind if the season started slow. It's a noir for godsakes, the mystery is driving the intrigue. Some people fail to realize that the director swapped Rust's pessimistic, sadistic, existential monologues and sub-supernatural for something far more real. Masculinity and identity. It's everywhere. From Paul's denial and sexual disassociating identity displayed when he's sober and when he isn't, to Ray not being able to impregnate his wife, and then a rapist does. Frank's limp dick and trouble in impregnating his wife, Ani who clearly was sexually abused in her youth, having it out on men... Then you tie these characters in with the story and everything else... The sex parties, the rich men abusing drugged up women, to the emasculation of Ben Caspere, having his dick cut off... It's all there. I think a lot of men dislike these themes as it makes them question themselves as a man. Every man can relate to the predominant theme of this season. Evil doesn't have to be in the form of a ritualistic occult like season 1. Evil is within all of us, and is ever present in the structures of society and government, the corruption and authority, a key to their wickedness. That scares me more than some spooky hick incest farmer ever will. This season is all about the past influencing the present.

As for the plot... Classic Chicago style noir. Don't be surprised when characters with barely any screen time resurface in later episodes and you don't remember who it was. That is on you. Not the writing. At the heart of it all, lies a mystery to be solved.
Click to expand...


if you post enough s**t out there, some mindless * will pick it up and sling you a like, just like the last chicken wing in h bowl, fatty and covered in s**t.

Frank says hey
 
Ochre said:
The fact you say this seasons strongest stretch includes an episode we haven't seen yet says it all for me.
Click to expand...
How?

Episode 6 and 7 have been the strongest episodes.

And if you have actually been paying attention, everything is about the hit the fan in the finale. This is the culmination of an epic plot, there are so many layers to this story.

Season one's story was not as good as this. Only reason why it's regarded as better is
1. It was a first season. There was not nearly as much expectation attached
2. Brilliant acting by MM and WH. They CARRIED that show, and sprinkled a little supernatural element on top of it, plus the odd nietzschean Rust incoherent ramble about the universe. Season 1 was the perfect show to barely pay attention to and you'll still like it.
3. They played it very safe. The story seemed big at first, but it really was quite small and restricted to just the Dora killer. They opened up a can of worms and barely concluded any of it. Fooled a lot of people... "But it's arsty, meaningful and ambiguous!" "You just didn't get the ending bro!" No. I got the ending clear. The poor story which was full of inconsistencies and coincidences was cleverly disguised with the retroactive story telling between 2014 and during the case in the 90's.

The very fact that people hang on to these cheeseball lines from Frank clearly tells me that none of you understand his character, nor the classic noir genre. Go watch an old school Chicago style noir. Jesus, the modern day TV fan is an idiot. So because some guy on AV club gives it a C, then you just repeat exactly what they thought of it too. The trick is to understand what the director/writer's point of view is, not start from 100 and deduct points away as you go. Seems like every ******* idiot with an internet connection is a pro critic now... Laughable.
 
Always Ballin said:
I'm glad this is a complex show. It doesn't hand feed you the plot. That's good. Keeps the people who aren't actually paying attention with s**t on their face. It's laughable that people are trying to pass off that as a legitimate criticism. It's like marking a piece of work without actually reading it all.

Season 1 is overrated as ****. It's only slightly better than season 2. The last 3 episodes of season 1 were no better than the first 3 of season 2. Season 1 had it's strongest episodes from 3 to 5. Season 2 is clearly having it's strongest in 6-8. I didn't mind if the season started slow. It's a noir for godsakes, the mystery is driving the intrigue. Some people fail to realize that the director swapped Rust's pessimistic, sadistic, existential monologues and sub-supernatural for something far more real. Masculinity and identity. It's everywhere. From Paul's denial and sexual disassociating identity displayed when he's sober and when he isn't, to Ray not being able to impregnate his wife, and then a rapist does. Frank's limp dick and trouble in impregnating his wife, Ani who clearly was sexually abused in her youth, having it out on men... Then you tie these characters in with the story and everything else... The sex parties, the rich men abusing drugged up women, to the emasculation of Ben Caspere, having his dick cut off... It's all there. I think a lot of men dislike these themes as it makes them question themselves as a man. Every man can relate to the predominant theme of this season. Evil doesn't have to be in the form of a ritualistic occult like season 1. Evil is within all of us, and is ever present in the structures of society and government, the corruption and authority, a key to their wickedness. That scares me more than some spooky hick incest farmer ever will. This season is all about the past influencing the present.

As for the plot... Classic Chicago style noir. Don't be surprised when characters with barely any screen time resurface in later episodes and you don't remember who it was. That is on you. Not the writing. At the heart of it all, lies a mystery to be solved.
Click to expand...

I like your passion and I certainly think that they've gone for a very different vibe (crime noir as opposed to southern gothic) and have explored some relatable themes about masculinity, I just don't think they've done it particularly well. My two main issues with it have been the attempts to flesh out 4 main characters at the expense of the plot (especially in such a short season) AND the horrible use of tropes and cliches. Yes, some of that is necessary when doing crime noir, but it's felt too borrowed for my liking.

Season 1 for me was incredibly compelling from the very first scene and I just have felt that this season has really dragged throughout. I loved the interactions between Rust and Marty, the existential angst versus the frustrated confusion. And setting it primarily as a flashback (with unreliable narrators) gave it some extra levels that this season seems to lack.
 
Always Ballin said:
How?

Episode 6 and 7 have been the strongest episodes.

And if you have actually been paying attention, everything is about the hit the fan in the finale. This is the culmination of an epic plot, there are so many layers to this story.

Season one's story was not as good as this. Only reason why it's regarded as better is
1. It was a first season. There was not nearly as much expectation attached
2. Brilliant acting by MM and WH. They CARRIED that show, and sprinkled a little supernatural element on top of it, plus the odd nietzschean Rust incoherent ramble about the universe. Season 1 was the perfect show to barely pay attention to and you'll still like it.
3. They played it very safe. The story seemed big at first, but it really was quite small and restricted to just the Dora killer. They opened up a can of worms and barely concluded any of it. Fooled a lot of people... "But it's arsty, meaningful and ambiguous!" "You just didn't get the ending bro!" No. I got the ending clear. The poor story which was full of inconsistencies and coincidences was cleverly disguised with the retroactive story telling between 2014 and during the case in the 90's.

The very fact that people hang on to these cheeseball lines from Frank clearly tells me that none of you understand his character, nor the classic noir genre. Go watch an old school Chicago style noir. Jesus, the modern day TV fan is an idiot. So because some guy on AV club gives it a C, then you just repeat exactly what they thought of it too. The trick is to understand what the director/writer's point of view is, not start from 100 and deduct points away as you go. Seems like every ******* idiot with an internet connection is a pro critic now... Laughable.
Click to expand...

Geez. Could you be any MORE condescending?

For what it's worth, I think Episode 5 was much better than Episode 6. And yes, it seems like everything is leading to the finale. Thanks for pointing that out, Mr Highbrow TV Watcher. Who'd have thought that a season finale was the pinnacle that all the other episodes build to? I'm glad we have you here to make sure we understand how suspense and release works.
 
Always Ballin said:
I'm glad this is a complex show. It doesn't hand feed you the plot. That's good. Keeps the people who aren't actually paying attention with s**t on their face. It's laughable that people are trying to pass off that as a legitimate criticism. It's like marking a piece of work without actually reading it all.

Season 1 is overrated as ****. It's only slightly better than season 2. The last 3 episodes of season 1 were no better than the first 3 of season 2. Season 1 had it's strongest episodes from 3 to 5. Season 2 is clearly having it's strongest in 6-8. I didn't mind if the season started slow. It's a noir for godsakes, the mystery is driving the intrigue. Some people fail to realize that the director swapped Rust's pessimistic, sadistic, existential monologues and sub-supernatural for something far more real. Masculinity and identity. It's everywhere. From Paul's denial and sexual disassociating identity displayed when he's sober and when he isn't, to Ray not being able to impregnate his wife, and then a rapist does. Frank's limp dick and trouble in impregnating his wife, Ani who clearly was sexually abused in her youth, having it out on men... Then you tie these characters in with the story and everything else... The sex parties, the rich men abusing drugged up women, to the emasculation of Ben Caspere, having his dick cut off... It's all there. I think a lot of men dislike these themes as it makes them question themselves as a man. Every man can relate to the predominant theme of this season. Evil doesn't have to be in the form of a ritualistic occult like season 1. Evil is within all of us, and is ever present in the structures of society and government, the corruption and authority, a key to their wickedness. That scares me more than some spooky hick incest farmer ever will. This season is all about the past influencing the present.

As for the plot... Classic Chicago style noir. Don't be surprised when characters with barely any screen time resurface in later episodes and you don't remember who it was. That is on you. Not the writing. At the heart of it all, lies a mystery to be solved.
Click to expand...
lol.

So far, S2 is pretty much the same basic plot as S1 with 4 bad characters instead of 2 good ones.

Someone leaves dead body out in the open to attract attention in first episode > we learn about main characters private lives while they investigate and uncover conspiracy involving corrupt cops and higher ups > main characters have a showdown with some bad guy we probably don't remember in last episode

The only thing that S2 has done that has been interesting is infiltrating the orgy. It would have been cool if Rust and Marty did the same in S1 with the Carcosa Rituals.
 
Always Ballin said:
I'm glad this is a complex show. It doesn't hand feed you the plot. That's good. Keeps the people who aren't actually paying attention with s**t on their face. It's laughable that people are trying to pass off that as a legitimate criticism. It's like marking a piece of work without actually reading it all.

Season 1 is overrated as ****. It's only slightly better than season 2. The last 3 episodes of season 1 were no better than the first 3 of season 2. Season 1 had it's strongest episodes from 3 to 5. Season 2 is clearly having it's strongest in 6-8. I didn't mind if the season started slow. It's a noir for godsakes, the mystery is driving the intrigue. Some people fail to realize that the director swapped Rust's pessimistic, sadistic, existential monologues and sub-supernatural for something far more real. Masculinity and identity. It's everywhere. From Paul's denial and sexual disassociating identity displayed when he's sober and when he isn't, to Ray not being able to impregnate his wife, and then a rapist does. Frank's limp dick and trouble in impregnating his wife, Ani who clearly was sexually abused in her youth, having it out on men... Then you tie these characters in with the story and everything else... The sex parties, the rich men abusing drugged up women, to the emasculation of Ben Caspere, having his dick cut off... It's all there. I think a lot of men dislike these themes as it makes them question themselves as a man. Every man can relate to the predominant theme of this season. Evil doesn't have to be in the form of a ritualistic occult like season 1. Evil is within all of us, and is ever present in the structures of society and government, the corruption and authority, a key to their wickedness. That scares me more than some spooky hick incest farmer ever will. This season is all about the past influencing the present.

As for the plot... Classic Chicago style noir. Don't be surprised when characters with barely any screen time resurface in later episodes and you don't remember who it was. That is on you. Not the writing. At the heart of it all, lies a mystery to be solved.
Click to expand...

2 things to this

1- I have been paying attention INTENTLY and its still f**king confusing. I agree not spoon feeding an audience is a positive for any TV show but when EVERYONE (except you it seems) is scrambling for a recap before the finale i think it proves the writing has failed. Dont forget the job of any TV show is to tell a story, if 90% of your audience cant follow it then thats on the show, not the audience.
2- You seem to have gone aggressively on the "I get it and if you dont get it you are an idiot that doesn't appreciate good TV". Not a great way to get your point across. Do your thing man by all means but maybe a less agressive tactic would have been a better approach.
 

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Just to clarify

I think season 1 is a A to A-
Season 2 I feel will be a B+ most likely. Could be more or less depending on how good the finale is

So stoked for tomorrow. Obvious choice for birdman/caspere killer is the osterman siblings

I'm going to throw a wildcard out there and say Pitlor is somehow involved
 
i really havent found the series hard to follow at all. a couple of times i've had to think about something that was mentioned before getting it and like most people i was all 'who the * is stan?' for a little while, but thats about it.

i read that slate article and the only thing i found out is that the black cop lady that bolo ray found dead was avon barksdale's sister in the wire. i knew i'd seen her in something.
 
Last edited:
NitroFan said:
i really havent found the series hard to follow at all. a couple of times i've had to think about something that was mentioned before getting it and like most people i was all 'who the **** is stan?' for a little while, but thats about it.

i read that slate article and the only thing i found out is that the black cop lady that bolo ray found dead was avon barksdale's sister in the wire. i knew i'd seen her in something.
Click to expand...

You and AB seem to be the only two.
 
Seeds said:
The philosophical wank is what made the show interesting. Without it it's just a dumb generic cop show.
Click to expand...
Really? There are better places to get that fix if that's all you're after. I want good story telling in my tv shows and S01 had very little of that. S02 isn't great but it's much better than S01 IMO of course.
 
Ending was fantastic... Feels fitting, like a greek tragedy. Well suited considering the over looming dominant themes present. It was great to see how the story of Oedipus Rex was finally tied into it like Pizzalato said...

Overall I feel the season was strong. Thematically and stylistically it was very certain... A hard-boiled, greek tragic noir... I think the drastic change in styles from season 1 really confused a lot of people and hurt the outlook on the season. People see the title True Detective and they expect something a similar to what they got last year, despite it being clearly known to most that this is an anthology series and must be treated as such as if every season were separate and unique from the last. I think this season achieved that, the slow start definitely hampered critical response, but in my eyes it is always better to finish strong, which it did. I have no doubt in my mind that if this 2nd season had gotten a Netflix style all at once release, people would be saying better things.

I'll rate this season a B+++, about a close as you'll get to an A, but because they went so big this season compared to last, the margin for error was considerably higher, and there were errors, just like season 1. Personally, I rated season 1 slightly higher at A-.... They played it far more safe with the story and the characters, which minimized the margin for fault and criticism. I hope others see the quality in this season, it was a success in my eyes. Bring on season 3!
 
Agree with others that it was disappointing Velcoro went out like that but besides that I thought it was a great finale. The last few episodes of the season have been quality IMO, I thought the story was much better this time around now we've seen it all unfold. The whole Yellow King occult mystery from S1 had me more impatient for the next episode than S2 did, but I think the whole multi layered government corruption angle and L.A. Noir vibes of this season made for a much better story in the end.
 
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