Help needed: Personal poker case study

[romanwfw]

1st time poster on this board, long time reader. This may be TLDR but i hope you will persevere and help a brother out.

I would post this on 2+2 but my office has banned that site, but not this one haha!! Also I think that local players may be able to help me out better than overseas readers

Playing history
I've been a long time hold'em player since I was a poor uni student caught up in the new craze at around 2003. I started going to crown back when they had the whiteboard and mic and only had limit hold’em available. I started out playing 2/4 limit and was as the case with a noob, quite horrible.

However, I’ve never been a quitter and I eventually started learning and playing more and more. Shortly after, crown introduced NLH and I did the switch starting out at around 1/2 level due to me studying fulltime/working partime

I made a few mates with guys there and we used to play a lot, almost everyday. I made money but that’s more of an indication of how weak our opponents were back then, not any indication of my skill whatsoever. If you played a TAG game, you would profit all the time, back then probably around 2005-2008 were golden years.

I never had bankroll management (big regrets in hindsight) so switched between1/2, 2/3 and occasionally 5/5 at crown during these years. My friends were much more disciplined than me and are now anonymous pro grinders currently.

Eventually life started to catch up with me but I still harboured the poker dream that I had all these years. I was essentially playing pro for a few years (2006-2008) but never had the discipline (bankroll management and poker) to apply it better during the ‘golden years’. It rankles me that I see many peers from back in the days at crown live I used to play against everyday who’ve stepped up and are now successful online grinders or play 5/5, 5/10 NL or 10/20PLO at crown now and I recognise those faces. They’re not better players than me, just more disciplined.

I’m engaged now and have a proper FT job but it’s never left my system. I spend some spare days (usu. Weekends) at crown donking off to fresh-faced kids at the 1/2 or 1/3 games at crown. Sometimes, due to financial constraints, I’ve even played 1/1 which is horrible very very horrible.

I know I should be crushing 1/3 at the very minimum (aiming for at least 8-10BB/hr) at crown but I don’t’ so that’s why I’m here for some help.

Playing style and knowledge
I’ve read bits and pieces here and there, but I’m not an avid reader of theory. I’m interested but the pure, high level mathematics fly past me. I’m happy to read deeply about human nature, psychological, behavioural patterns, etc but give me numbers and I’ll be lost.

Therefore, my maths is not strong but adequate. I know all the odds, can do basic EV (on the fly if I’m on my game), but that’s it.

I’m more of a reader of players and I’m pretty ok. I’m very big on betting styles and patterns.

I would be described as LAG. I will exploit weakness where I see it. I’ve become more and more trappy over time, sometimes I think I overdo it and therefore don’t get maximum value sometimes. This is a newish problem, as the younger kids become more tricky nowadays.

I’m the kind of guy who limps with AA, KK UTG but will bet with 7-high in position in a checked flop situation. I’m also the kind of guy who will triple barrel quite easily.

I’ve also become a much looser caller now than I used to, which I’m trying desperately to remedy. This would be one of my biggest issues that I would like to fix.

Problem
Because I’m getting married, basically living a normal life; I no longer live a degenerate lifestyle and cannot devote any portion of my income towards a bankroll. I’m forced by default to play the low-level games at crown 1/2 and 1/3 NLH

There are 2 main types of players at these levels: crusty old-timers with too much money and will bet and chase anything aggressively; and new kids on the block who think they know everything and play a very sneaky, trappy, laggy, game.

I’m stuck between adjusting between the two very different mediums and am getting crushed in the process, very frustrating! I know I’m better than these players (please give me a smack on the head if you think I’m deluded here)!!

I’m calling light everything in order to bad beat the old timers and out-sneak the young kids but I’m fighting a losing battle. I’ve tried playing tight and the young kids just kill me when they steal everything. I cant find a solution. HELP PLEASE!!

I’ve been on a solid downswing for a few months now, I”ve played long enough to know that it’s partly the cards but also I’m to blame as well. I make a few crucial mistakes:

- Leakage problem: calling too loose pre-flop because I feel I can outplay them post-flop. This causes problems post-flop when I chase middle/bottom pair or sneaky draw with implied odds but leaking more chips
- Overplaying mediocre hands: Example raising JQo pre-flop, hit flop and make massive play. Obv a losing long-term strategy
- General loss of confidence creating negative effect on my sense of timing and reading ability

In summary, I’ve always been a LAG but it’s always served me well until now. Now I think my two major problems are I’m calling way too light pre-flop and post flop and when I try to tighten up I end up overplaying mediocre cards.

In my own head, I think this is more a mental issue rather than a poker issue, but all feedback very welcome.

 

[baz_machine]

The first suggestion I'd say is to keep a log book (just notes, etc) of each session that you play.

Write down the table to played, the buy in, how much you won / loss, how you felt, players on the tables, etc.

Then write down any interesting hands you come across during your play, even ones your no involved it. Also every hand that you are at the table for, start putting everyone on ranges.

At the end of each session (or next day), review the notes to see what you did right / wrong.

Also buy some books to read. I'm sure the posters here or 2 + 2 can suggest you some great material to read.

Sounds like you are a decent player but just need some structure on the way you go about it. Having a log book should help in this regard.

 

[romanwfw]

Thanks mate, i analyse each session in my head but i don't write it donw, i'll try that for a while and see how that goes

Tbh, i'm dissapointed in the non-response here, i guess i might go to 2+2 and see if i can get some help, or just be trolled down by those guys

in case anybody is reading, this is a log of my sessions nearly for the past year, as you can see, i'm not playing very often. that's what happens when you get a FT job i guess. i've lost my last several sessions, and i know it's not just variance, i'm playing pretty badly too

my stats for 1/3 in that time are +1210 from 82.87hrs for $14.64/hr so just below 5bb's/hr

 

[JuddsABlue]

apologies I meant to reply to this but for some reason never did

It sounds like you know what your biggest problems are, you just need to choose how you want to play

If you want to play a lag style and call to much preflop than you can, you just need to accept you'll probably be a losing player. Theres no shame in being a recreational player. IMO I kind of think its every pros goal to be a recreational player, in a sense that theyre financially secure enough that they dont need to worry about poker results anymore and can play for the fun of it

If you want to be a grinder and build a bankroll then firstly 1/3 you probably wont be able to beat the rake. I've never played it, but I know the rake is really high so you'd need absolute droolers to have a chance. But if some of the action is getting sucked up by other 'grinders' who arent spewing but still losing, beating the games is still pretty hard

So like I said, you already know most of your leaks and theyre the leaks you'll need to plug first before looking at others. Tighten up your range preflop and stop trying to bad beat people. When you're trying to bad beat people you're openly admitting you're making bad plays trying to get lucky, until you get past this hurdle you can't look at any others

Its good you look to exploit weaknesses, but dont cross the boundry to just spewing which it sounds like you admitted you do

 

[romanwfw]

apologies I meant to reply to this but for some reason never did

It sounds like you know what your biggest problems are, you just need to choose how you want to play

If you want to play a lag style and call to much preflop than you can, you just need to accept you'll probably be a losing player. Theres no shame in being a recreational player. IMO I kind of think its every pros goal to be a recreational player, in a sense that theyre financially secure enough that they dont need to worry about poker results anymore and can play for the fun of it

If you want to be a grinder and build a bankroll then firstly 1/3 you probably wont be able to beat the rake. I've never played it, but I know the rake is really high so you'd need absolute droolers to have a chance. But if some of the action is getting sucked up by other 'grinders' who arent spewing but still losing, beating the games is still pretty hard

So like I said, you already know most of your leaks and theyre the leaks you'll need to plug first before looking at others. Tighten up your range preflop and stop trying to bad beat people. When you're trying to bad beat people you're openly admitting you're making bad plays trying to get lucky, until you get past this hurdle you can't look at any others

Its good you look to exploit weaknesses, but dont cross the boundry to just spewing which it sounds like you admitted you do

Hi mate, thanks for the post

I will try and tighten up heaps pre-flop and stop the leakage but its very hard with implied odds

i would like your opinion on why you think a lag style is a probably a losing player. i'm not a big reader of current trends so is this a widely held view or just a personal opinion of yours. I had thought (and of course i could be wrong) that a lag style was a profitable way to play (all things been even).

Also, would you have a opinion on how i can counteract the two contrasting style of players i've described that i mostly run into on the 1/3 tables

 

[JuddsABlue]

With implied odds comes reverse implied odds which is the money you'll lose when you think you have the best hand

For example you flat 56 on the button from an open in the hijack, flop comes 789r and you get it in against JT drawing dead. Other examples are flops of 467r and you brick out calling down etc

It's a pretty blunt example, but basically while implied odds may seem good in certain spots it's easy to not calculate the reverse implied odds which leads to an overall loss playing those hands

In regard to whether a lag style is good or not isn't black and white. All styles can be profitable if played correctly and you adjust correctly. If you're going to play LAG then at the start it may work to start with, but people will adjust and a few hours later your style that was working may not be working any more. The same can be said for playing tight.

It's important to adjust to your table and it's players. If the whole table is playing lag I wouldn't suggest trying to out-raise them especially when stacks are so short in these games, I'd suggest playing tight and profiting from the tables looseness

As for a table with half oldies and half heroes, just be aware of who's in the pot and who's left to act. If you know only tight players are left in the hand you can open up a bit, if you have some stations to your left then adjust

But basically don't go into a game with a pre conceived idea of how you're going to play, always adjust to each specific table and Villian and have enough styles in your arsenal to combat everyone

 

[cynical]

I don't play live but I'll assume its a very weak line up

the drawing hands you want to play are pocket pairs in any position, suited connectors and weak Axs in position and stronger suited Aces in any position

if you don't flop anything then fold, if you flop weak draws like bottom end straight draws and gutters you want to have position and a cheap price

be very careful drawing to non nuts eg paired board with a fd, you really don't want to get involved a lot of the time

I also agree that most lags are losing players, even the good ones. The problem is their play forces them to take more beats which causes more tilt. When a lag tilts they can spew chips all over the place because of their style. Also lags are further away from game theory optimum so good players can exploit them easily just by having a balanced range.

Most good winning players just play a pretty basic tightish game and adjust their range and style based on opponents.

You really want to play a pretty close to game theory optimum and tweak it a bit by exploiting obvious tendencies.

Eg If you raise preflop and then check oop and always fold then you have a huge exploit, you want to balance this by check/calling and check/raising some good hands

you would stray from this balanced play against a loose passive who never bets (you'd always check/fold and you'd never check a good hand) and against someone who bets when you check you'd want to check most hands (cos if you bet they fold air)

if you want a better response of how to play then you have to give more information on the games, like number of players to a table, how many players call preflop, how big the stacks are eg 50bb, 100bb, 200bb? how aggressive they are, what do they stack off with based on stack sizes etc

 

[ashley12]

I think we have thrown around GTO a bit willy nilly, since at the moment no one has come close to solving NLHE.

You might argue LAGs are further away from being GTO post, but if you have a range capped at JJ+ based on preflop action you are going to get into a lot of trouble super deep with a range that is capped at overpairs on nasty boards. This is generally why people raise a wider range of hands, so that they can make the nuts (or have the nuts in their range) more often, as well as make it more difficult for other good players to correct hand read in certain situations.

Its all a moot point anyway, since for the most part OPs problems seem simple enough, just need to fold more preflop. Since lower level games are generally lower level thinkers we dont need to think beyond the second level instead, we dont need to balance our ranges with bluffs, we just need to bet big when we have a big hand and think they will call any bet, fold when we face a bet that we rarely if ever will beat at showdown etc... Its not that hard, but it is too easy to get into the mindset of "but I have a set, I must call, I have a straight, I must call" when we are obviously beat in certain situations.

 

[Happy Daze]

My advice would be to have pfr/vpip very close together, at 30 Nl and below play about 25 pfr and position, between 50 and 200 NL play close to 35 - 40 PFR LAG if you have the post flop skill.

 

[romanwfw]

Hi all

Thank you for all the constructive criticism. It might seem like a simple problem as ashley12 referred to in the lower levels but as we all know, poker is a mental game. As cycnical points out quite correctly, a tilted LAG will spew quite badly and horribly.

I know that many of you guys play higher limits so i will try and describe a typical 1/3 table. I have noticed that the game is becoming bigger than it should be, it really is like the very old 2/3 table style. PFR are often between 6-10BB's and there will be multiple callers. In fact, anything below a PFR<6BB's will be completely disregarded and you might see the whole table calling.

This make its difficult for somebody with my style. If i play my normal game, i will be leaking like the titanic and obv very bad play. I try to tighten up in these situations but from further self-analysis i think i need to tighten up my pref-flop range even further, possible A10s+ only and any pairs

Because the pots are getting inflated, there is way too many players in every pot and it becomes a luckfest; something which I try to eliminate as much as possible.

In rerference to Happy Daze, I know that i should be raising pre-flop alot more often (and i used to employ that strategy) but i've changed to a small-ball strat with my suited-connectors, A10/AJ's and pairs because i know that most of the time someboyd else will raise anyway and i wish to hide the strength of the hand if i hit well enough post-flop. I'm not sure if this is a winning strategy but it's definitely alot better than just being a leaking value-calling player. . .


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In regards to Aussie millions, best of luck to all. It's an annual tradition of mine to not play during the weeks it is on because the room is flooded with foreign players. they are cashed up and i know alot of the locals get crushed this time. there are always plenty of internet pros playing the lower limits and just playing super aggresively. . . I don't have the bankroll to capitilise on these types of players.

It's also a long running joke that many of the "professional" locals will be missing in the month of February as they are all cleaned up during the aussie millions, either spewing too much of their BR on tournaments/satellites or on the tables

 

[Happy Daze]

There is some decent advice on 2plus2 about how to approach the types games you are describing Romanwfw - there was one thread in the small stakes PL/NL forum a few weeks ago on "home games".....and I've just done a search, its at the top of the list, there are other threads there. Just follow this link: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/search.php?searchid=37772905

My advice above is more for online - the general strats outlined in the 2plus2 links to the types of games you are describing are pretty good if you ask me - obviously got my wires crossed about what exact advice you were after. Good luck with it.

 

[ashley12]

If people are very loose and generally speaking passive raise less hands by by a higher amount

Also, if people are still willing to put in the odd first raise with curious holdings (feeler raises so to speak) then dont be afraid to add limp/raising to your arsenal either, just be prepared to lay down big one pair hands in multiway pots should it limp around and the board is messy.