Historical crowds - facts only

[smasha]

I was very surprised at the amount of Richmond supporters on the Watsonia line when I went to the game on Friday.
We actually outnumbered the Pies.

The sth east is traditionally a big Tiger stronghold but there is growth in the north east as well.
I think RFC went to the wrong area when they went more west to places like Cragieburn.

Richmond's 50th year at the G (Richmond Paddock) next year.
Hopefully the club has a few things instore to really bump the membership even more!

 

[Roylion]

fitzroy moved to the junction oval after st kilda left because they felt locked in by carlton & collingwood

Fitzroy left Brunswick Street Oval because the ground facilities became unfit for VFL football and the Fitzroy Council would not commit $400,000 to improve the facilities. THe Fitzroy Cricket Club controlled the ground and they wouldn't spend any money on the ground either. Playing at Princes Park from 1967-1969 was also unsuitable as Carlton controlled the revenues. Hence the move to the Junction Oval, which has been on offer to Fitzroy since 1966.

 

[gopies1981]

1) To back up my assertions that Essendon were close to Collingwood following our 1993 premiership. Here's the year-by-year crowds before the move to Docklands. Keep in mind Essendon were an OK team overall and Collingwood poor. Collingwood still played some games at Victoria Park, and bar the odd game at Waverley and Princess Park Essendon were advantaged by solely playing at the MCG.

• 1994: Essendon 46,465 (10th); Collingwood 48,241 (8th)
  
• 1995: Essendon 47,211 (4th); Collingwood 47,217 (10th)
  
• 1996: Essendon 49,526 (6th); Collingwood 44,723 (11th)
• 1997: Essendon 52,848 (14th); Collingwood 48,708 (10th)
• 1998: Essendon 54,893 (8th); Collingwood 49,399 (14th)
  
• 1999: Essendon 57,309 (1st); Collingwood 39,126 (16th)

Essendon haven't grown since. Collingwood have massively. In the past 5 seasons:

• 2013: Essendon 49,152 (9th*); Collingwood 55,487 (6th)
  
• 2012: Essendon 47,698 (11th); Collingwood 59,798 (4th)
  
• 2011: Essendon 49,266 (8th); Collingwood 61,488 (1st)
  
• 2010: Essendon 44,184 (14th); Collingwood 63,256 (1st)
  
• 2009: Essendon 50,377 (8th); Collingwood 53,434 (4th)

2) I probably was too vague on Carlton. They still are and will be a Victorian powerhouse, but they have lost their influence from the 1980s. Like Essendon they've been through a very poor run (some could argue even worse) and that doesn't bode well for the future.

3) Like Hawkk I find it interesting why some clubs supporter bases fell away and others didn't.

1997: Essendon 52,848 (14th); Collingwood 48,708 (10th)

Actually in 1997 Collingwood averaged more. It was actually Collingwood who averaged 52,847 when finishing 10th and Essendon who averaged 48,708 when finishing 14th.

From a small period from 1998 to 2001 Essendon were a bigger club then Collingwood but that was only due to Essendon being the strongest club onfield and Collingwood being one of the weakest clubs onfield.

Actually Essendon have never drawn more people to their games then Collingwood when the pies have finished higher on the ladder. If both clubs were both top 4 and playing 14 games at the mcg the pies would still be averaging 5,000 more per game.

 

[finders]

Strange historical fact! South Melbourne in the VFA and then in the new VFL were consistantly one of the biggest drawcards and in the 1880s they got crowds of 20,000+ to the Lakeside Oval..

 

[The Blue Baggers]

another way to look @ it is how many times your team has drawn 1m+ a season (h&a) only;

17 - Collingwood (incl. 9 straight since 2005)
13 - Essendon
4 - Carlton
2 - Richmond

 

[dave10]

1997: Essendon 52,848 (14th); Collingwood 48,708 (10th)

Actually in 1997 Collingwood averaged more. It was actually Collingwood who averaged 52,847 when finishing 10th and Essendon who averaged 48,708 when finishing 14th.

From a small period from 1998 to 2001 Essendon were a bigger club then Collingwood but that was only due to Essendon being the strongest club onfield and Collingwood being one of the weakest clubs onfield.

Actually Essendon have never drawn more people to their games then Collingwood when the pies have finished higher on the ladder. If both clubs were both top 4 and playing 14 games at the mcg the pies would still be averaging 5,000 more per game.

It's hard to know for sure. I am not completely sure the Pies are that far infront as you think. Ethihad distorts the gap between the two clubs enormously. Apart from anything else, the Pies have been highly successful over that same recent 8-10 period that Essendon has been largely unsuccessful.

Every now and then the Bombers remind us of how big a club they are. 40,800 V Power at twilight Sunday last year an example. Games against Hawthorn and Geelong lady year would have drawn 70-80,000.

Now I agree the Pies would be infront. I am not as convinced that a powerful Essendon at the MCG wouldn't go close to matching the Pies. I reckon with it's large MCC membership you would see some huge crowds watch the Dons at the G if they became a power club on field. 10 barron years and playing big games at Ethihad has largely distorted the figures in my view. I will say Pies by 2-3,000 a game all things equal on field.

 

[dave10]

another way to look @ it is how many times your team has drawn 1m+ a season (h&a) only;

17 - Collingwood (incl. 9 straight since 2005)
13 - Essendon
4 - Carlton
2 - Richmond

It would be interesting to see the clubs ave attendances at the MCG. For some sort of accuracy you would only draw figures for each club when they played at the MCG as the main hone ground to ensure lower drawing home games are included for a more realistic figure. Eg Essendon 1992 - 1999. Pies / Blues post PP and Vic Park? Though Blues you probably can't do..

 

[gopies1981]

Un

It's hard to know for sure. I am not completely sure the Pies are that far infront as you think. Ethihad distorts the gap between the two clubs enormously. Apart from anything else, the Pies have been highly successful over that same recent 8-10 period that Essendon has been largely unsuccessful.

Every now and then the Bombers remind us of how big a club they are. 40,800 V Power at twilight Sunday last year an example. Games against Hawthorn and Geelong lady year would have drawn 70-80,000.

Now I agree the Pies would be infront. I am not as convinced that a powerful Essendon at the MCG wouldn't go close to matching the Pies. I reckon with it's large MCC membership you would see some huge crowds watch the Dons at the G if they became a power club on field. 10 barron years and playing big games at Ethihad has largely distorted the figures in my view. I will say Pies by 2-3,000 a game all things equal on field.

Unfortunately both Essendon and Collingwood have not been up and about the same time for a long period of time like the cats and hawks.

I do agree that the pies are in front of Essendon due to our success of the last 12 years. Another premiership to the pies before the dons will increase the supporter base gap between both clubs.

Still the worst decision by Essendon to move to Etihad. In 1999 they were the biggest club in Victoria ( by Collingwood being pretty pathetic for 10 years) and moving to Etihad has stopped their growth as a football club while Collingwood and hawthorn continue to get bigger and you could also put Richmond in that mix as well!

Essendon put money first in front of the fans. Thankfully Eddie put the fans first in 1999 when Collingwood were the first club asked to move to Etihad

 

[The Blue Baggers]

It would be interesting to see the clubs ave attendances at the MCG. For some sort of accuracy you would only draw figures for each club when they played at the MCG as the main hone ground to ensure lower drawing home games are included for a more realistic figure. Eg Essendon 1992 - 1999. Pies / Blues post PP and Vic Park? Though Blues you probably can't do..

essendon passed 1m+ in 95, then from 1997-2002 straight (2000-2 playing mainly out of the docklands) ... passed 1m+ from 2007-11 missed 2012 but went passed again last season

carlton only moved full time 2006, from 2008-11 the blues passed 1m+ ....

since 1992 collingwood has only failed to pass 1m+ on 5 occasions, last time was 2004 when the mcg was under renovations

 

[sverik25]

I think for St Kilda to be where they are on those rankings is a pretty good effort given how crap the club was for much of the 70s and 80s. From what I can tell there are currently large numbers of latent St Kilda supporters who for whatever reason have become disenchanted with the club and this has led to us be compared with Melbourne, WB, and North in this regard. If we get our act together off field and have some success on field we can be a strong club ala Hawthorn is now.

 

[brisbane13]

It would be interesting to see the clubs ave attendances at the MCG. For some sort of accuracy you would only draw figures for each club when they played at the MCG as the main hone ground to ensure lower drawing home games are included for a more realistic figure. Eg Essendon 1992 - 1999. Pies / Blues post PP and Vic Park? Though Blues you probably can't do..

since 1997 just home and away rounds
most of essendons games at the MCG would be away games and most of collingwoods games at the MCG would be home games
venue Essendon Collingwood
Docklands 40750k 41590k
Football park 37074k 36342k
Gabba 31079k 29882k
MCG 59942k 60066k
SCG 31037k 37890k
Subiaco 34655k 36523k

not bad for a team Essendon that has been s**t since 2002
and collingwood has played in 9 straight finals series as well as winning a premiship.
people underestimate how big essendon just are. the crowds averages tell the story. people assume collingwood are that far ahead, is because of knobs like eddie maguire always pumping them up always making sure collingwood is represented in the media some where.
if essendon had a successful streak to what collingwood has, they could easily surpass them



http://afltables.com/afl/crowds/essendon.html#1a
http://afltables.com/afl/crowds/collingwood.html#1a

 

[The Blue Baggers]

since 1997 just home and away rounds
most of essendons games at the MCG would be away games and most of collingwoods games at the MCG would be home games
venue Essendon Collingwood
Docklands 40750k 41590k
Football park 37074k 36342k
Gabba 31079k 29882k
MCG 59942k 60066k
SCG 31037k 37890k
Subiaco 34655k 36523k

not bad for a team Essendon that has been s**t since 2002
and collingwood has played in 9 straight finals series as well as winning a premiship.
people underestimate how big essendon just are. the crowds averages tell the story. people assume collingwood are that far ahead, is because of knobs like eddie maguire always pumping them up always making sure collingwood is represented in the media some where.
if essendon had a successful streak to what collingwood has, they could easily surpass them



http://afltables.com/afl/crowds/essendon.html#1a
http://afltables.com/afl/crowds/collingwood.html#1a

likewise carlton have pretty s&^% all this century yet we remain third on crowds nos.

always thought it was a bit silly that the 2nd and 3rd biggest drawing clubs are playing the majority of their games out of the docklands

 

[The Blue Baggers]

games that have drawn 80k + (before the start of this season);

18 - Collingwood v Essendon
15 - Collingwood v Carlton
6 - Essendon v Richmond
5 - Carlton v Essendon , Collingwood v Geelong
4 - Carlton v Richmond , Collingwood v Richmond , Collingwood v Melbourne
3 - Collingwood v Hawthorn
2 - Geelong v Hawthorn , Collingwood v St Kilda
1 - Essendon v Geelong , Melbourne v Geelong , Melbourne v Essendon

By club ;

51 / 71 - Collingwood
31 - Essendon
24 - Carlton
14 - Richmond
9 - Geelong
6 - Melbourne
5 - Hawthorn
2 - St Kilda

 

[brisbane13]

games that have drawn 80k + (before the start of this season);

18 - Collingwood v Essendon
15 - Collingwood v Carlton
6 - Essendon v Richmond
5 - Carlton v Essendon , Collingwood v Geelong
4 - Carlton v Richmond , Collingwood v Richmond , Collingwood v Melbourne
3 - Collingwood v Hawthorn
2 - Geelong v Hawthorn , Collingwood v St Kilda
1 - Essendon v Geelong , Melbourne v Geelong , Melbourne v Essendon

By club ;

51 / 71 - Collingwood
31 - Essendon
24 - Carlton
14 - Richmond
9 - Geelong
6 - Melbourne
5 - Hawthorn
2 - St Kilda

is that including finals?

because stkilda when would that of been

 

[The Blue Baggers]

is that including finals?

because stkilda when would that of been

just h&a

queens birthday 1992 (ken sheldon grabbed craig devonport by the throat after dragging him)

and a couple of years ago in the magpies premiership year

 

[Gibbke]

the top 3 teams collingwood, carlton & richmond, are all 3 inner city teams in high density suburbs, which is why they had a big following.
in the 70s Essendon would have been classed as an outer suburb.
now they have leap frogged carlton and richmond in the popularity steaks, they pulling bigger crowds in the late 90s and early 00s than collingwood. but then moved to etihad & along with collingwoods good run of success they pies have over taken them

Richmond has a bigger membership than Essendon this year, arguably on the back of one failed finals campaign...

 

[The Blue Baggers]

Richmond has a bigger membership than Essendon this year, arguably on the back of one failed finals campaign...

don't pay too much attention to head line membership nos. some clubs are giving one game memberships away with scarves

 

[brisbane13]

yet why do essendon average near to collingwood, since 1997 and have been shite.
hawthorn
richmond have bigger memberships, yet essendon still draws more on the back of 0 finals campaigns since 2001 from memory.
essendons membership has been over taken, by the clubs playing out of the MCG but still draw near the pies
any way this thread is about crowds.

 

[Gibbke]

don't pay too much attention to head line membership nos. some clubs are giving one game memberships away with scarves

Every club has at least one supposedly "dodgy" practice...

 

[The Blue Baggers]

Every club has at least one supposedly "dodgy" practice...

agree ... the hawks have abt 10k tasmanian members that the majority probably would not renew if the hawks lost their sponsorship

 

[brisbane13]

agree ... the hawks have abt 10k tasmanian members that the majority probably would not renew if the hawks lost their sponsorship

hawthorn, have done it well but have cheap family memberships

 

[Gibbke]

yet why do essendon average near to collingwood, since 1997 and have been shite.
hawthorn
richmond have bigger memberships, yet essendon still draws more on the back of 0 finals campaigns since 2001 from memory.
essendons membership has been over taken, by the clubs playing out of the MCG but still draw near the pies
any way this thread is about crowds.

Essendon - finals in 2002-03-04-09-11, plus 2013 to give hope to the Bomber faithful.

Richmond 2013. And let's not get too caught up in the 20 years before that, with Essendon's flags outnumbering Tigers finals appearances. The thread might not be about crowds as such, but you brought up popularity...

 

[The Blue Baggers]

Essendon - finals in 2002-03-04-09-11, plus 2013 to give hope to the Bomber faithful.

Richmond 2013. And let's not get too caught up in the 20 years before that, with Essendon's flags outnumbering Tigers finals appearances. The thread might not be about crowds as such, but you brought up popularity...

agree we need to bring it back to crowds ... that tends to sort out dodgy membership nos.

 

[Gibbke]

agree ... the hawks have abt 10k tasmanian members that the majority probably would not renew if the hawks lost their sponsorship

Doesn't make it any less legitimate. It's a market of current supporters with access to local games they pay for, which is the very definition of membership and the very model we find palatable. The Hawks also had a big Launceston supporter base beforehand, which was one of the justifications for them embarking on the venture in the first place. I'd wear the pet membership scandal as a dodgy practice, but Tasmania is just good business that no one else was progressive enough to develop...

 

[brisbane13]

Essendon - finals in 2002-03-04-09-11, plus 2013 to give hope to the Bomber faithful.

Richmond 2013. And let's not get too caught up in the 20 years before that, with Essendon's flags outnumbering Tigers finals appearances. The thread might not be about crowds as such, but you brought up popularity...

http://stats.rleague.com/afl/crowds/2002.html
flick through the years of the crowds. richmond are far behind.
richmond have been playing home games at the MCGsince the 60s, and richmond is next to the mcg.
collingwood plays all if its home games at the MCG carlton & essendon home games at etihad and a few at the MCG.

look at my post earlier about the comparrason in crowd averages since 1997 between the pies and Essendon, it would be interesting to see how the tigers and blues compare. but there is little between the pies and bombers when compared to crowd averages.