Mega Thread Hot Topic - Drugs and AFL

[RussellEbertHandball]

McDevitt said not having a witness in person made it more difficult to prosecute case.

No legal power to make Dank and others to testify.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Asada are considering appeal havent .made a decision yet.

 

[MrMeaner]

McDevitt said not having a witness in person made it more difficult to prosecute case.

No legal power to make Dank and others to testify.

Yeah. I get the impression they thought they had at least Charter and Alavi in the bag. Not being able to compel them to appear at the tribunal really damaged ASADA's chances of meeting the standard of proof.

If the government is serious about the use of PEDs in sport, it will introduce some form of process for compelling witnesses (as opposed to simply the power to compel to attend interviews). There will be more cases where it is necessary to make out the charge absent positive tests. At the moment, ASADA are pretty hamstrung where the only evidence is oral testimony.

Given all that (an not having seen the evidence), you would have to think that any appeal has the same problems.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

"LET me make it clear, this was not a supplements program, but an injection regime." McDevitt

 

[raptalia]

I cannot see the point in a process that refers any appeal back to the AFL Appeals Tribunal in the first instance. That Tribunal is hardly likely to overturn a decision made by three well qualified and experienced legal eagles. Such a step appears particularly time wasting and futile in light of statements made by Gillon MacLachlan.

ASADA have the right of appeal and if that is what they want to do so be it but let them go straight to the CAS and be done with it. One point made by Richard Ings is that he thinks the whole process has far too many steps and takes too long. He is right.

What has to be considered in any decision to appeal is that this judgement was not an internal AFL judgement albeit that the Tribunal was convened under AFL rules. The people making the judgement were well qualified and experienced members of the legal profession appointed from outside of the AFL system. In that context this process was not an internal whitewash as has been the case in some overseas cases. One would expect the judgement to be written in appropriate legal parlance without errors of fact or unsound supposition and as was pointed out by Sports Lawyer Paul Horvath, if that is the case the CAS would find it difficult to overturn a unanimous judgement on all 34 individual counts.

The bottom line is that ASADA is a publically funded body under the control of the Federal Minister for Sport and if ASADA appeal and win they will be heroes to some but if they appeal and lose there will be serious questions asked and they will have dug an even deeper hole for themselves. Already the Australian Greens have called for a Senate Enquiry into ASDA's operations. That may be a step too far at this stage but clearly ASADA are in a difficult situation and it is mainly of their own making.

You have to wonder how much of an external agenda there is here. For many years Australia, particularly the Australian Olympic Committee has postulated on the evils of drugs in sport. They have been justified when you look at the East German experience but you wonder how much pressure there is on ASADA to get a result so that the standing of the AOC and it's tough stance on drugs over the years is vindicated. You also wonder how much pressure WADA exert on ASADA to get a result and judging from the bile that former WADA President and burnt out politician John Fahey was spouting yesterday there is a fair bit of pressure from that direction.

We are now in a seven week holding pattern.

 

[Arsene Wenger]

Hes all hot air Mcdevitt. They wont appeal. They only will if Alavi or Charter agree to talk.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Yeah. I get the impression they thought they had at least Charter and Alavi in the bag. Not being able to compel them to appear at the tribunal really damaged ASADA's chances of meeting the standard of proof.

If the government is serious about the use of PEDs in sport, it will introduce some form of process for compelling witnesses (as opposed to simply the power to compel to attend interviews). There will be more cases where it is necessary to make out the charge absent positive tests. At the moment, ASADA are pretty hamstrung where the only evidence is oral testimony.

Given all that (an not having seen the evidence), you would have to think that any appeal has the same problems.

And that is why when people say Asada are incompetent or this is a witch hunt they are either fools or being disingenuous. Dank Charter and Alavi have the evidence but its not a court of law and they can shut up. The tribunal said there job was formidably difficult. I wonder if the tribunal would have gone with a balance of probability decision. Sounds like it.

For those who think this was a waste of time an money does that mean you would be happy to have Dank Charters and Alavi work at the PAFC and run their injection regime and Dr Mark Fisher have the same control as Doctor Reid.

The ACC started this and it was a big shot across the bow of Australian sport and their lax attitude to doping and the involvement of criminals in Australian sports down to the grass roots levels - as we found out recently with meth at country Vic footy clubs. I suspect they would have wanted the February 2013 announcement to have been delayed by a few months. But they did their job. Their political masters jumped the gun.

 

[Forzaport]

Hes all hot air Mcdevitt. They wont appeal. They only will if Alavi or Charter agree to talk.

Tend to agree. Unless Charter and Alavi are forced to front the tribunal and/or there's new evidence I doubt they'll appeal.

 

[Arsene Wenger]

Tend to agree. Unless Charter and Alavi are forced to front the tribunal and/or there's new evidence I doubt they'll appeal.

Also they continue to refer to these frozen samples they still have and can re-test.... not sure how much credence that should be given.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Also they continue to refer to these frozen samples they still have and can re-test.... not sure how much credence that should be given.

Its a legacy issue.

 

[Adz2332]

Genuinely shocked at home the Ess supporters are in complete agreence that they have done nothing wrong and happy with the club, hird etc..... they cant be that stupid can they?

 

[Forzaport]

Genuinely shocked at home the Ess supporters are in complete agreence that they have done nothing wrong and happy with the club, hird etc..... they cant be that stupid can they?

They seem to have this misguided belief that "insufficient evidence" is proof that no PEDs were used at Essendon during 2012. It's staggering.

 

[Boxx]

So, what if in the future Dank comes out and testifies that they were in fact administered TB4/ AOD... can this result in a guilty verdict being found?

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

So, what if in the future Dank comes out and testifies that they were in fact administered TB4/ AOD... can this result in a guilty verdict being found?

There is an 8 year limit on investigations from when the offence took place. So if Dank talks before late 2020 ASADA can open things up. Edit the investigation has to start within 8 years of "the date the violation is asserted to have occurred." Article 17 of WADA Code.

That is why Armstrong admitted to doping in the TDF with the last one being end July 2005 He wanted to get into triathlon events by August 2013. So when be went public in Jan 2013 with Oprah he was hoping by going public and admitting his doping, the ban would end 6 months later. But he doped in his 2009-11 comeback career. Plus no way was a life ban going to be reduced to 8 years.

 

[Adz2332]

They seem to have this misguided belief that "insufficient evidence" is proof that no PEDs were used at Essendon during 2012. It's staggering.

exactly! no where have they been cleared! they have just done a good enough job hiding, destroying or generally covering stuff up!
Id be appalled if we were in the same boat!

 

[MrMeaner]

And that is why when people say Asada are incompetent or this is a witch hunt they are either fools or being disingenuous. Dank Charter and Alavi have the evidence but its not a court of law and they can shut up. The tribunal said there job was formidably difficult. I wonder if the tribunal would have gone with a balance of probability decision. Sounds like it.

Yep. Their one chance was using the Commercial Arbitration Act to compel Charters and Alavi. After that failed, they faced a monumental task.

 

[Portology]

They seem to have this misguided belief that "insufficient evidence" is proof that no PEDs were used at Essendon during 2012. It's staggering.

No. It is not staggering at all.

 

[Quadzilla]

The full report ...

http://m.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-p...-thymosin-beta-4/story-e6frf3e3-1227288292492

AFL360 Gerard Whately feels an appeal wont happen. .. the tribunal was very thorough in its 132 page finding.

 

[tribey]

They seem to have this misguided belief that "insufficient evidence" is proof that no PEDs were used at Essendon during 2012. It's staggering.

Old mate Rowe was the same the other day when he kept asking Caro if she owed Hird an apology.

Apparently insufficient evidence means they all sat around a bonny eating s'mores while Jim played an array of two-chord acoustic classics.

 

[mic59]

Sam Newman spouting his usual rubbish on the Footy Show and blaming 3 organisations.
ASADA for their incompetence through this - well, they did their job, it wasn't made easy. Doesn't say there wasn't anything there, just that it could not be proved to a satisfactory level.

The media for their hysterical reporting with little fact. Well, isn't this what the media, and also the Footy Show are best at? No surprises there.

But the according to him last was the Labor government for getting involved with their "darkest day in Australian sport" quote. Please Sam, try and show a bit of sense once in your life. The Labor government latched onto it as what they thought was a populist statement. They never actually got heavily involved in any kind of investigation and bailed out when they realised there were no votes in being seen to be concerned.

 

[Grave Danger]

The full report ...

http://m.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-p...-thymosin-beta-4/story-e6frf3e3-1227288292492

AFL360 Gerard Whately feels an appeal wont happen. .. the tribunal was very thorough in its 132 page finding.

I don't think the Tribunal wanted to be comfortably satisfied:

The Tribunal comfortably accepted:

Charter purchased what he believed to be TB4 and arranged to have it sent to Alavi;

Alavi believed that what he was compounding was TB4;

Alavi dispensed 26 vials of a substance he believed to be TB4 to Dank;

Correspondence between Alavi and Dank regarding “thymosin” refers to TB4;

And Alavi’s lab technician Vania Giordani compounded 15 vials of a substance she believed to be TB4 for Mr Dank.

But at every stage the Tribunal failed to be comfortably satisfied that what was purported to be was in fact Thymosin Beta 4.


It sounds like they wouldn't have believed Dank, Charters or Alavi even if they had fronted the Tribunal and without any positive samples ASADA can whistle Dixie.

 

[Asgardian]

I hope we didn't make a massive mistake going for Ryder.

We didn't ...

 

[Jason K]

Might have to stop watching 360 with Robbo on there carrying on like EFC proved innocent. He really is a bloody numpty

 

[shewho]

Sounds like they accepted an attempt to administer a banned substance (TB4) but the operation was so dodgy no one could be sure if it was TB4, water from the Yangse or chicken s**t.

This only fuels the heat on Hird and explains why Ryder was so disillusioned with Essendon. These players will never know what was put into them.

 

[*PAF]

Sounds like they accepted an attempt to administer a banned substance (TB4) but the operation was so dodgy no one could be sure if it was TB4, water from the Yangse or chicken s**t.

...

From someone that hasn't followed this in any great detail this is the part that really stands out.
Sounds as if no one can prove what the substance was and no one can prove that it wasn't. Book keeping at its best.
If that is correct then one can probably understand/accept it when it happens in the financial world, but not when it comes to medical stuff.