How bad is this Ashes loss for England?

[JackFlash]

It's been an incredible turn a round, you had two of England's most famous cricketers (Ian Botham & Geoff Boycott) telling anyone who would listen back in October that England would win this series 5-0 and they really believed it. So what happened? Both Trott and Swan blew a woofer valve and Prior forgot how to play within 6 months.
Cook, Bell, Root and Pietersen all averaged less than 30 for the entire Test series. Bowling wise Mitchell Johnson was outstanding and took more wickets than Anderson and Broad combined. The big question that should be leveled at Cook's men is "where was your heart"? They capitulated by the 2nd Test and never at any stage did they look like they were interested in turning it all around. I think they all believed Botham and Boycott too?
Is Australia that good all of a sudden? For the previous 3 seasons we have been quite ordinary, now all of a sudden we are challenging the South Africans for top spot. This series could not have come at a better time for Australia. As for England they are now so desperate they are reportedly interested in asking 'pseudo' Pom Shane Warne to coach them!!!

 

[Ian Dargie]

Bad enough for Pietersen to be sacked.

 

[frankrizzo]

Is Australia that good all of a sudden? For the previous 3 seasons we have been quite ordinary, now all of a sudden we are challenging the South Africans for top spot.

That's how our players seem to see it but lets be realistic we are nowhere near SA, they have just one series loss in seven years and before this ashes we lost three of our last four series(with an indian like 0 wins from 9 away).

 

[Slax]

Shows how lacking of backbone the ECB are. Yes Flower should of gone, but not sacking Cook and sacking Pietersen shows they have lost the plot. I agree totally with what Michael Vaughan wrote, "I would have thought a new coach/director would want a full set of players to decide from himself..!!? IMO that would have included Pietersen" If the new coach decided he didn't want him then fine, but that person should be left to make the decision not a bunch of old farts sitting in a room in St John's Wood.

 

[Ian Dargie]

Ouch.

England cricket is the poorer for the absence of players such as Gower and Pietersen. It will be less colourful, less entertaining and less competitive. But in England the greater sin is to be seen to give you wicket away with a loose stroke rather than leaving a straight delivery and allowing it to hit your stumps. Failure is accepted so long as it is not accompanied by flair. Genius is doubted and distrusted and, in England, you are forgiven for turning you back and going on a rebel tour - Gooch, Gatting, Graveney et al - but not for rocking the boat. In England, success has been a brief interlude in a general drama of failure.

I wonder how the writer squares this "general drama of failure" with his earlier assertion of greatness.

 

[Wallaby]

Ouch.


I wonder how the writer squares this "general drama of failure" with his earlier assertion of greatness.

Very common ailment to suffer from - Premature Evaluation. We've all done it.

It also has the usual 'Coach worship'. He states Flower as the most important person in the setup. Now he's the first to go. It's the same stuff our media is going through with Lehmann - 'We wouldn't have won without Boof!'. Well, we still probably would have, but he helped. No one credits Buchanan with our period of utter domination in the early 2000s.
It's a Media meme. They love a simple answer - it doesn't matter if it's right or not.

 

[Mateyman]

That's how our players seem to see it but lets be realistic we are nowhere near SA, they have just one series loss in seven years and before this ashes we lost three of our last four series(with an indian like 0 wins from 9 away).

Why don't we just wait 20 days and see how we stack up against SA in SA?

 

[Dan Cooper]

The next England team to play Australia will be unrecognisable from the one that just left here with it's tail between it's legs. The axe back home will be sharpened and ready to go, as we've already seen in the case of Pietersen. Only question is who'll be next?

 

[Kim Chambers]

Here's my question: measured against the worst series results in England's history, taking into account England's confidence pre-series, the (perceived) strength of the opposition and the severity of the loss, how bad is this defeat?

Here's the list of England series: http://howstat.com.au/cricket/Statistics/Series/SeriesListCountry.asp?A=ENG&B=XXX&W=X

I struggle to find anything that really competes since they lost the 1989 Ashes on home soil. That was a six-Test series and they lost 4-0, but were well behind in both drawn Tests.

http://howstat.com.au/cricket/Statistics/Series/SeriesStats.asp?SeriesCode=0298

That's pretty bad. Was that series loss worse than this?

In 1989, they were smashed at home by an Australian side no one rated. So maybe 1989 was worse.

On the other hand, you'd have to say the current England side is a lot more accomplished than their 1989 counterparts. The current England side have had, by English standards, a 'golden era'. Back in 1989, they hadn't done a whole lot in the build-up to inspire confidence - they were smashed by the West Indies in England the previous summer before recovering with a one-off victory over Sri Lanka. Admittedly, they had won the previous two Ashes. But when you look at their best players heading into the current series, they have a definite edge over the guys they had back them. Gooch, Smith, Gower and Botham v Cook, KP, Bell, Trott, Prior, Swann, Broad and Anderson? The current team were certainly more settled, with more players who had proven themselves at international level.

Certainly, George Dobell rated them pretty highly. And there is something to be said for the fact that they had lost just two of their previous 17 series before this one. You have to go back to the 1950s to find the last English side that managed that kind of sustained success. And then they showed up to Australia, fancying their chances, and got smashed. A bit like 1958-59, perhaps?

Indeed, maybe that is the most recent, most analogous Ashes series. England had been unbeaten in their previous 14 series, a run stretching over eight years, in which time they beat us twice in England and once in Australia. Lock, Laker, Statham and Trueman - their best ever bowling attack? - and an experienced batting line-up including Cowdrey, Graveney and May (all with Test averages in the mid-40s). Sound familiar? And, just as it has this summer, it ended in tears for them, with a 4-0 loss over five Tests. The great Richie Benaud was the destroyer.

Who ******* cares? We creamed them. Do you think they go analysing us after a series loss? I can't believe the amount of s**t that gets posted on this board.

 

[Ian Dargie]

Who ******* cares? We creamed them. Do you think they go analysing us after a series loss? I can't believe the amount of s**t that gets posted on this board.

The point is that it will be remembered as one of their worst ever losses.

As for the question of whether the English indulge in similar post-mortems, do you think this qualifies?

If you're averse to any kind of analysis, that says more about you than it does about anyone else. Admittedly, a quick search of threads you've started reveals you to be a pretty cerebral character.

 

[Doodlesweaver]

Who ******* cares? We creamed them. Do you think they go analysing us after a series loss? I can't believe the amount of s**t that gets posted on this board.

Of course they go arounnd analysing the Aussies like this. Fans love that s**t.

 

[Ian Dargie]

Some interesting comments from Andrew Flintoff - there was a reason Australians always quite liked him.

We’ve all wondered what possessed us to do things in life, me especially, but as a group you’d think someone would have stopped that. It was disrespectful to Australia. It was as if we thought we could do what we wanted.

Meanwhile, Darren Lehmann was stripping things back to basics, turning his team into fighting, aggressive Aussies and keeping it simple. They weren’t turning up for matches like us, with riders longer than Mariah Carey’s.

I was worried after the first Test in Brisbane when Cook was interviewed and asked about preparation. He said he would be sticking to the same plans as the summer but that’s standing still. Even when you’re successful you’ve got to strive to move forward.

The Australians were making progress. I don’t think they’re the best team but their aggression took England aback and we couldn’t return it. I was at an ECB awards ceremony and Jimmy Anderson picked up a Barmy Army award for sledging Mitchell Johnson. Now the boot’s on the other foot, we don’t like it. You’ve got to be careful.

Stuart Broad took the local newspaper into the Press conference after day one in Brisbane to try to score points. He’d got a few wickets but we should have bowled them out more cheaply - it’s a dangerous game and we got found out. We ended up acting like victims and the Aussies knew they had us.

Like Botham, he seems to understand that there is a certain endemic softness in England that needs to be kept at bay and not incubated.

 

[Ian Dargie]

Do the aftershocks of that Ashes loss confirm that it was in fact England's worst series defeat of all time?

We ended their 'golden era' and sent them straight to a low ebb.

 

[Doodlesweaver]

It's making Johnson's triumph less though, you feel as though they'd fold before Henriques if he bounced them.

 

[Carbine Chaos]

It's making Johnson's triumph less though, you feel as though they'd fold before Henriques if he bounced them.

I disagree, it is making Johnson's triumph more, because the aftershocks are so telling.

 

[Doodlesweaver]

I disagree, it is making Johnson's triumph more, because the aftershocks are so telling.

Well that's the two theories right there...

 

[Sweet Jesus]

The final act? Ouch.

One can only imagine what Australia, fresh from their four‑wicket triumph against India, will be making of the latest hapless upheaval in English cricket. The sacking of Alastair Cook as England’s 50-over captain on the very threshold of a World Cup campaign is one part pathos to two parts farce.

With cricket’s greatest party about to begin in Australia and New Zealand in less than two months, England are beginning to resemble one of those guests who turns up barefoot and dishevelled, broken stiletto heel in hand, apologising for being late and asking directions to the bathroom so they can finish putting on their make-up.

Australia’s decapitation of English cricket is thus very nearly complete. The trouncing they handed England a year ago has cost the old enemy their coach, their best player and now their captain, in spirit at least. Cook may well return stronger for this chastening experience, redouble his efforts in Test cricket and lead England to a stunning Ashes victory next summer. But for now he is a broken man, and the very least that can be said is that it is a very long way back from here.