How good are we at developing players?

[Robroy22]

Ok I agree with the overall point you are trying to make, but I wouldn't lump all those guys into the same basket. Lets go through them one-by-one (because thats how I like to do things):

First group - too old expect anymore development after 2010. (I note your comments about people being able to add facets to there game later on... but you cannot ignore the average trajectory of players - there is a reason players decline in their later years and are forced to retire - otherwise we'd have a bunch of 40-50 year olds still playing).
Johnson was 29 in 2010. Some of his best years were 2009-11. Far from being a guy that didn't have some sort of progress late in his career.
Jolly was 29 in 2010 - and was a great Ruck for us that year... his body shut down somewhere around 2012, which is as expected for a Ruckman... doesn't fit this argument at all.
Tarrant - returned to us as a 30 year old... had a very good first season back... can't really expect much more from him at that age.
L Brown - 2011 was his final year... don't see any way you can blame Bucks for anything here. And at that stage had showed that as a club (Malthouse?) we were definitely able to get the best out of him in his twilight years.
Maxwell - again doesnt fit the argument. IMO played some of his best footy in his final years (especially this year) - maybe not stats-wise, but definitely from a leadership perspective... wouldn't want anything more from him.
Didak - Can't blame coaching staff at all IMO for Didaks last couple of years. His body was shot, he had no lateral movement, and could not hold a tackle because of his shoulders - was basically a traffic cone on defence (and that was even when he came on fresh as a sub)... I was Did's biggest fan in his early years, and watched him closely at the end, and personally I think he was given too many opportunities - he was a liability.
Krak - really? I'm not sure what more you could've expected for a guy who spent 4 years away from the top level, and had ongoing family and health/body/conditioning issues. I think his 2010 Sandover and his 2011 for us were remarkable given what he had been through.

Now those guys are out of the way.
The next group:
Swan - was one of the absolute elite mids of the game from 09-13. (ages 25-28... actually a pretty late peaker)... and only last year did he drop off. Time will tell how much of that was injury/conditioning related. (I think his best is behind him, but should have a better year than last). Of the 2 guys of his ilk, Ablett has stayed at that level for at least 1 year longer... but Judd fell away a fair bit earlier.
Shaw - Like most here I am very disappointed in how things went with Heater - but who takes the blame for that? And we aren't talking about football ability with him. 2013 was primed for Heath to step up as a leader of this club... instead he showed the exact opposite, was bickering with his teammates for much of the year, and was a big part in us losing to Port in the final. Blame Bucks all you want for Heath not taking the step up, but IMO, those seeds had been sown many years beforehand.
Lumumba - Yep, here is one that fits your argument. (Probably the first on this list that I would agree to put down to footy ability/development). I've made it clear multiple times where I think we made a mistake with Heretier - he was at his best as a defender who made occasional booming runs up forward... we lost the balance somewhere, and once he lost his skills as a defender there was no going back to that role.
Dawes/Wellingham/Thomas - I have seen nothing from them at their new clubs to suggest that they had further potential for improvement that we hadn't tapped into... in fact at least 2 of them have declined.
Goldsack - I think he has made some developments since then - has added a bit of flexibility to his game, and has become known as one of the hardest tacklers in the competition.
Caff - again, I disagree and think we saw significant development from Caff. Missed 2 whole years of footy, and then became one of the best taggers in the game.
Toovey - agree he should of provided much more this year, particularly when the rest of our backline was so young... but again was a guy who most most of 2013 with injury.
Cloke - was disappointing last year... but 2010-2013 (23-26yo) were his best years... again doesnt quite fit your argument that we can't develop guys in those years. Still only 27, so I think we should see a lot of improvement moving forward from last year.
Nathan Brown - agree - this is a guy who showed a lot of development early, but then stalled and has not been at his best since. But again - has basically missed 2 whole seasons of footy since 2010.
Ben Reid - Probably peaked as a 20-22 year old. Was average in 2013, but we showed some creativity and used him effectively as a forward (again - that is some development). Again injuries.
Blair - agree would've loved to have seen more development from him... at the moment he's sort of stuck in no-mans land... provides enough to still be a regular in the 22 (but for how much longer?) but never took the step up.

Yeah, i'm not even going to fathom responding about Pendles. When someone is considered top 2-3 players in the game, it is incredibly harsh to say he hasn't developed. What it would be nice for him to add is the abillity to be a great captain... but as we often see that is a skill that very few players have, and is often more nature than nurture.
---

So basically - of the guys who weren't too old, we have a bunch who have struggled with injury, and a few who had a poor 2014 but were very good prior to that. Only really leaves a few, IMO, who have disappointed in their development for a few years without having injuries to blame.

Thanks for taking the time to go through all this....I agree wholeheartedly and appreciate your thorough review.

 

[Fruit]

I think we had a really good history of getting young kids ready for senior football when Alan Richardson had a role in development. We had a good record of players coming into the side and stepping up really quickly.

 

[THATSGOLD]

Well you couldn't honestly expect any of
Johnson/Jolly/Tarrant/L.Brown/Maxwell/Didak/Krakouer/Swan to improve from that list after Buckley took over.

Shaw/Lumumba/Dawes/Wellingham/Goldsack/Macaffer/Toovey/Cloke/Thomas/N.Brown/Pendlebury/Reid/Blair could possibly have improved but the two that probably had the greatest scope for improvement have already left in Wellingham and Dawes.

Pendlebury was already at a level that makes any improvement difficult to notice unless he becomes the outright best player in the comp.

It'll be interesting to see how Thomas goes this year at Carlton but the signs weren't looking good with his ankles. (On that note Josh Thomas will be an interesting one, maybe he can improve over the next couple of years).

Brown, Toovey and Reid and Macaffer have all been held back with injury.

Don't think anyone ever expected Blair to become a star, but yes he could have improved.

Cloke is an interesting one, obvious room for improvement and maybe there is a coach out there that could get the best out of him but we may never know.

Macaffer reinvented himself and has had a bad run with injury.

Then there's Goldsack, I think he's a difficult one in that I can't see him ever being a star player but I do think he has enough room for improvement left so that we can see a noticeable difference if all goes right.

PS. Mick wasn't plucking 25+ year olds out to have breakout seasons every year. There is a reason most of his hits came over our two most successful years in recent history.

The midfield of Daisy Pendles Wellingham Swan Beams Sidebottom is the one that should've seen us dominate for 5 years and some podium flag times. BUT the fall out of coach closed that chance out.
Those 6 are the famous 6 I saw killing it for years. So disappointing. Better than the next best midfield by a long way but like I said without a coach that could keep them together it's all over.

 

[gutsroy]

It's not really an easy question to answer if we are talking about the last few years since 2010 / 2011.

We have had several injuries to draftees / young players that have slowed their development (Scharenberg, Freeman, Broomhead, young Marsh, Fasolo, Seedsman, Josh Thomas, Lachlan Keefe and Ben Kennedy), and apart from potentially the Management of Freeman's soft tissue injuries, that isn't something you'd really ascribe to the club.

In terms of players around their mid-20's, Brent Macaffer, Ben Reid and Nathan Brown have been hampered by injury, Dawes, Dale Thomas, Wellingham, Beams and Shaw either moved on or were moved on; you could maybe put some of that down to player management, but I'd argue they played their best footy with us, so that wouldn't necessarily be a flaw in our player development, would it?

Might be a simplistic view, but it's the combination of having moved on older players and a number of players in or just past their prime in a conscious bid to bring in younger players and those young players then not being available that has meant blokes like Blair, Clinton Young and Goldsack having a greater structural importance than their ability probably warrants and honest triers like Ben Sinclair getting semi-regular games (he has a real crack, not denigrating him) that sees us middle of the road at the moment.

 

[Hagla]

The midfield of Daisy Pendles Wellingham Swan Beams Sidebottom is the one that should've seen us dominate for 5 years and some podium flag times. BUT the fall out of coach closed that chance out.
Those 6 are the famous 6 I saw killing it for years. So disappointing. Better than the next best midfield by a long way but like I said without a coach that could keep them together it's all over.

Yeah true, Mick really dogged us but what would you expect from that old prick I guess. If he'd have stuck to his contract as head of coaching then maybe they would have stayed. He was the first to split and he led by example for the rest of "his boys". Probably the wrong thread for this opinion but I couldn't resist the opportunity

 

[noideaatall]

So question? Is it the current coaching and conditioning staff that are at fault or the previous? Because I agree it is a concern, but think it may be the previous conditioning staff at fault here.

Good point. It takes time to change players "fitness base". You could say the same about other factors which might limit development, like attitude, culture, game plan.

Knightmare is making a strong and simple argument that we should see players improve with age, not hover or go backwards. This is a goal we can agree on whilst there maybe a variety of opinions as to whether players are improving or not and why. Premierships are won by teams that have a good mix of ages, all playing their best footy.

It is not a Bucks vs MM debate. MM is not the yardstick of CFC or the AFL in 2015. This club is going nowhere if the MM debate is going to eclipse every analysis and I hope this external trend does not reflect the internal workings of the club.

My pet issue is ruckmen, which goes well beyond the Bucks era. Poor recruitment, poor development and, when we have finally some amazing potential, no ruck coach, no mature backup.

 

[Anzacday]

This club is going nowhere if the MM debate is going to eclipse every analysis and I hope this external trend does not reflect the internal workings of the club.

Safe to say that's not the case I reckon

 

[didaksrightfoot]

My pet issue is ruckmen, which goes well beyond the Bucks era. Poor recruitment, poor development and, when we have finally some amazing potential, no ruck coach, no mature backup.

Agreed ruck development/coaching is a big concern for me this season. I think we had a gem in Hudson in terms of his coaching- and it is a real shame we haven't replaced him. (Also - looking at how Hawthorn develop their ruck division - would love to have Monky back at the pies).
With the current footy dept cap, I can understand the argument that we need to limit off-field spending, and you may have to have priorities on where you spend you money on coaching... but that wasn't an excuse before.
Since Monky, have we had another ruck that we've developed well ourself?

 

[jackcass]

Neither team really had the talent or drafted well.

It's more that next generation that is good, particularly for the Dogs and a few not yet knowns for the Saints who will in time be good. It's just a case of so many years up with those teams that they never generated that mid career group with only those guys drafted since 2010 those better talents coming through.

The Dogs had Ward and Harbrow, both of whom have gone. Same goes with Higgins. Minson is that other improver and improved really late, but that can with ruckmen happen. Their core group now is that group drafted from 2010 onward now.

The Saints are pretty much just Steven and Geary who came on later, with nearly none of the young guys developing while Lyon was there. It's only this past year where we've started with this next, new generation of Saints that we're starting to see some worthwhile talents emerge with Newnes the only guy who has been around a few years who has really shown any meaningful development otherwise from the drafts between 2010-2012.

So again very different developmental dynamics with both until really this year you could say poor developing young talent, excellent at maintaining veterans and both pretty good also with those mid career with their problems in those years of success more related in my view anyway to poor talent identification. WBD taking Christian Howard? Seriously? And the Saints really not bringing in anyone of note for a long time there.

Only difference between them and us is the quality of our pre 2010 draft additions despite there limited number. We've got Macaffer, Swan, Pendles, Goldsack, Blair, Brown, Reid, Sidebottom, Keeffe, Thomas, Sinclair, Cloke and Toovey. Only 13 remaining and turned over more than 50 players from the 2010 draft/trade period till this years. Hopefully quite a few go on and play high quality footy well into their 30's.

 

[jackcass]

The latter part of that theory would imply that footballers have limited potential or a maximum ceiling. I don't see it that way. I see football and in any pursuit continued ability to grow, as you get better it becomes more and more difficult to find further ways to improve and experience that further improvement, particularly as you age. But none-the-less I still see there is plenty of ability for that to happen.

As well as Ceglar I'd have Michael Hartley as a big time improver. For anyone who watches VFL football he really broke out and became a very reliable key defender.

We had some guys change to roles that suited their existing skillsets and that's something under Nathan's coaching he really has done well - moving Lumumba to the wing etc. I just don't tend to believe all of Johnson/Jolly/Tarrant/L.Brown/Maxwell/Didak/Krakouer/Swan/Shaw/Lumumba/Dawes/Wellingham/Goldsack/Macaffer/Toovey/Cloke/Thomas/N.Brown/Pendlebury/Reid/Blair had a ceiling that beyond the 2011 season couldn't progress further. That's all the players we had in either of our grand final teams from 2010/2011 born in 1989 or earlier.
A lot of those guys after the 2011 season you'd look at and think further improvement could be experienced from, but we haven't seen it from one player.
When it's across that large a size of the group and that total portion of that group. That's when you can recognise it's pretty obvious that something is not right.

Real shame about his shoulders, looked to be a player on those few occasions he was available.

 

[jackcass]

So question? Is it the current coaching and conditioning staff that are at fault or the previous? Because I agree it is a concern, but think it may be the previous conditioning staff at fault here.

How do we know it's a coaching and conditioning issue at all?

 

[Laurie Holden]

How do we know it's a coaching and conditioning issue at all?

Good question and unsure any of us can answer that. I dont really have an opinion of why our players fade so quickly once they start pushing towards 30. I was more throwing it out there that we may well have fixed the issue/s but won't know for sure for a few years. Time will tell I guess.

 

[Gone Critical]

No club perhaps in the competition does it worse with those over 23s regarding development.

Guys in their mid 20s still have the capacity to improve, and generally guys when they hit 30s might lose a bit of speed or have a higher incidence of injury, but even then they can still add small things to their games. We're just not seeing any of that at Collingwood.
What has Cloke added? Brown? Goldsack? Macaffer? Blair? You can look through that 2010 premiership squad and ask the question who has improved and you wouldn't jump up and down and enthusiastically say anyone. Beams (now gone - improved in 2012) and Reid for that 2011 season were really those only improvers, but we haven't really seen it from anyone else.

Cant say I agree with this KM. If we look at the 2010 flag players remaining most of them are much improved on where they were in 2010 and the ones that are not it's mainly for injury reasons

Cloke - 2010 was still a callow youth. Since has gone onto establish himself as the premier contested mark in the comp and one of the best few KPFs. 2014 wasnt a great year but 2011 and 2013 were career best. In 2010 he was just a good young KPF who struggled through that season.

Toovey - Solid in 2010 but grew through the next few seasosn, game matures and he added an attacking elememt to his game and became a much better stopper or tall mobile players like Darling. By the time he did his knee had evolved a long way

Pendles - Was a great young midfielder in 2010 but has grown to an elite player since 2010. Now near a top 3 player in the comp. 3 B&Fs, captaincy, AAs he has grown and grown.

Reid - You covered, clearly kicked on from 2010 but cut down with injury

Blair - Has grown as a player since 2010 and been an automatic selection since

Goldsack- See Blair. These 2 have matured into competent footsoldiers that all good teams need

Brown - Improved but stifled by injury

Sidey Improved but was a teen in 2010 so doesnt fit the criteria

Swan - Mature in 2010 but AA in 11,12,13 means he just continued on with elite seasosn like few at Collingwood have ever achieved

Caff - Clearly grown and matured as a player , establishing a new role in the game, another cut down by injury

 

[Knightmare]

Cant say I agree with this KM. If we look at the 2010 flag players remaining most of them are much improved on where they were in 2010 and the ones that are not it's mainly for injury reasons

Cloke - 2010 was still a callow youth. Since has gone onto establish himself as the premier contested mark in the comp and one of the best few KPFs. 2014 wasnt a great year but 2011 and 2013 were career best. In 2010 he was just a good young KPF who struggled through that season.

Toovey - Solid in 2010 but grew through the next few seasosn, game matures and he added an attacking elememt to his game and became a much better stopper or tall mobile players like Darling. By the time he did his knee had evolved a long way

Pendles - Was a great young midfielder in 2010 but has grown to an elite player since 2010. Now near a top 3 player in the comp. 3 B&Fs, captaincy, AAs he has grown and grown.

Reid - You covered, clearly kicked on from 2010 but cut down with injury

Blair - Has grown as a player since 2010 and been an automatic selection since

Goldsack- See Blair. These 2 have matured into competent footsoldiers that all good teams need

Brown - Improved but stifled by injury

Sidey Improved but was a teen in 2010 so doesnt fit the criteria

Swan - Mature in 2010 but AA in 11,12,13 means he just continued on with elite seasosn like few at Collingwood have ever achieved

Caff - Clearly grown and matured as a player , establishing a new role in the game, another cut down by injury

I don't see 2010 as the starting point of the analysis but instead 2011 when our list was at it's best - with the H+A season where we achieve historically I imagine our highest even end of season percentage.

Starting from 2011, I would say with confidence no one after the age of 24 has demonstrated any improvement when you assess the totality and total quality of their games.

2011 was Cloke's best season. 2013 he also performed well playing deeper, but I wouldn't describe it as an improved season and he was greatly aided by a well performed Reid in that second half of 2013 as the only time in his career since establishing himself where he has played alongside a second high level key forward. Then this past year he had his worst season since 2006, looking slow and immobile.

Toovey in 2011 became who he is. He hasn't declined but he hasn't improved.

Pendlebury again in 2011 played his best football and since has not achieved the same numbers. His game has stayed in essence the same.

Reid again in 2011 played his best footy, had a good 2013 season when he switched forward for that second half but injuries have hurt.

Blair in 2011/2012 played relatively his best football and his game hasn't advanced in any way since.

Goldsack from his first season really has remained the same player and an argument could be made that his first season (2007) was his best season.

Brown has had his injuries. Played his best footy in those two grand finals and hasn't at any stage added anything to his game.

Sidebottom and same could be said of Beams received more opportunity up the field under Nathan and as such both achieved greater numbers. Both Beams and Sidebottom in 2012 played their best football.

Caff played his best football in 2010. He has had his injuries, and the tagging role has in some ways suited him and he started out hot until a seeming rule change and poor play since.

Then Wellingham and Dawes who have both gone both played their best footy in 2010.

Lumumba played his best football in 2010, his all australian year. Since he has been inconsistent and from 2011, and certainly 2012 wasn't the same player. 2013 was a rebound season in a new role on a wing then again down back last year was poor I felt.

Shaw's best season was 2007 with 2012 his last strong season.

Swan played his best football in 2010 and has since with every season regressed slightly with 2014 a complete drop in standard. He fits into the previous generation category where he developed under Mick and pre 2011.

Dale Thomas is another. Played his best football in 2011 and hasn't been the same since.

--

I challenge anyone to find a player on our list who after the age of 24 has beyond doubt improved since the 2011 season since Nathan has taken over as head coach. There isn't a since player and for the past year it has been blatantly obvious that it has been an area of grave concern. The development of over 24s, the decline of 30 year olds, the injuries. They're the issues the club needs to fix to achieve any meaningful success any time from now.

I could similarly go through all the names of all the guys who have declined as soon as they hit 30 since 2011. *Hint. It's been the entire list just as all players as they have hit the age of 24 have stopped developing.

 

[Old Spice]

Breaking: TG has a hard on for Mick. Needs it's own thread or someone will miss it.

 

[TradeDraft]

I challenge anyone to find a player on our list who after the age of 24 has beyond doubt improved since the 2011 season since Nathan has taken over as head coach. There isn't a since player and for the past year it has been blatantly obvious that it has been an area of grave concern. The development of over 24s, the decline of 30 year olds, the injuries. They're the issues the club needs to fix to achieve any meaningful success any time from now.

I could similarly go through all the names of all the guys who have declined as soon as they hit 30 since 2011. *Hint. It's been the entire list just as all players as they have hit the age of 24 have stopped developing.

Well we had some many Injuries no one has had a Proper Run at it and we Traded the Players that would been in that area so we don’t know how they would Developed at Collingwood and not another club.

So you say once a Collingwood player reaches 23-24 there reached there Peaks and they go Backwards again?

 

[Knightmare]

Well we had some many Injuries no one has had a Proper Run at it and we Traded the Players that would been in that area so we don’t know how they would Developed at Collingwood and not another club.

So you say once a Collingwood player reaches 23-24 there reached there Peaks and they go Backwards again?

It's staying the same or going backward with those 24 or older on our list. I've been saying it for a year now and it has continued.

We've got no Ben McGlynn's or Stefan Martin's going from average and are they even best 22 guys to best 50 in the game players. Nick Malceski even at 30 hit a new level this year. Matthew Jaensch at 25 broke out from a depth guy to one of the best rebounding backs in the league, now Collingwood player Levi Greenwood last year at North Melbourne went from average to an excellent midfielder. Shane Edwards found another level this year, so did Cale Hooker who prior to last year was a liability in the back half with his inability to beat his guy every week and cranked up his rebounding game further. Brent Harvey in his mid 30s had what I'd argue was a career season.

We haven't had any guys on our list from 2012-2014 improve like that from our 24 and older age group. It's just guys coming back every year with the same game or getting worse with only those under the age of 23 improving.

Right now we're a development academy and all that's leading to is some mid and lower half of the ladder finishes even if we continued to develop our young talent well.

 

[TradeDraft]

It's staying the same or going backward with those 24 or older on our list. I've been saying it for a year now and it has continued.

We've got no Ben McGlynn's or Stefan Martin's going from average and are they even best 22 guys to best 50 in the game players. Nick Malceski even at 30 hit a new level this year. Matthew Jaensch at 25 broke out from a depth guy to one of the best rebounding backs in the league, now Collingwood player Levi Greenwood last year at North Melbourne went from average to an excellent midfielder. Shane Edwards found another level this year, so did Cale Hooker who prior to last year was a liability in the back half with his inability to beat his guy every week and cranked up his rebounding game further. Brent Harvey in his mid 30s had what I'd argue was a career season.

We haven't had any guys on our list from 2012-2014 improve like that from our 24 and older age group. It's just guys coming back every year with the same game or getting worse with only those under the age of 23 improving.

Right now we're a development academy and all that's leading to is some mid and lower half of the ladder finishes even if we continued to develop our young talent well.

I agree the Recuriting of 24+ Year Olds have been Below Par from 2011 but that is not having a player from Draft Age and going thru our system.

We are getting someone else from another System

 

[Hagla]

I don't see 2010 as the starting point of the analysis but instead 2011 when our list was at it's best - with the H+A season where we achieve historically I imagine our highest even end of season percentage.

Starting from 2011, I would say with confidence no one after the age of 24 has demonstrated any improvement when you assess the totality and total quality of their games.

2011 was Cloke's best season. 2013 he also performed well playing deeper, but I wouldn't describe it as an improved season and he was greatly aided by a well performed Reid in that second half of 2013 as the only time in his career since establishing himself where he has played alongside a second high level key forward. Then this past year he had his worst season since 2006, looking slow and immobile.

Toovey in 2011 became who he is. He hasn't declined but he hasn't improved.

Pendlebury again in 2011 played his best football and since has not achieved the same numbers. His game has stayed in essence the same.

Reid again in 2011 played his best footy, had a good 2013 season when he switched forward for that second half but injuries have hurt.

Blair in 2011/2012 played relatively his best football and his game hasn't advanced in any way since.

Goldsack from his first season really has remained the same player and an argument could be made that his first season (2007) was his best season.

Brown has had his injuries. Played his best footy in those two grand finals and hasn't at any stage added anything to his game.

Sidebottom and same could be said of Beams received more opportunity up the field under Nathan and as such both achieved greater numbers. Both Beams and Sidebottom in 2012 played their best football.

Caff played his best football in 2010. He has had his injuries, and the tagging role has in some ways suited him and he started out hot until a seeming rule change and poor play since.

Then Wellingham and Dawes who have both gone both played their best footy in 2010.

Lumumba played his best football in 2010, his all australian year. Since he has been inconsistent and from 2011, and certainly 2012 wasn't the same player. 2013 was a rebound season in a new role on a wing then again down back last year was poor I felt.

Shaw's best season was 2007 with 2012 his last strong season.

Swan played his best football in 2010 and has since with every season regressed slightly with 2014 a complete drop in standard. He fits into the previous generation category where he developed under Mick and pre 2011.

Dale Thomas is another. Played his best football in 2011 and hasn't been the same since.

--

I challenge anyone to find a player on our list who after the age of 24 has beyond doubt improved since the 2011 season since Nathan has taken over as head coach. There isn't a since player and for the past year it has been blatantly obvious that it has been an area of grave concern. The development of over 24s, the decline of 30 year olds, the injuries. They're the issues the club needs to fix to achieve any meaningful success any time from now.

I could similarly go through all the names of all the guys who have declined as soon as they hit 30 since 2011. *Hint. It's been the entire list just as all players as they have hit the age of 24 have stopped developing.

Since 2011 is really only a small sample size though, I realise it's all we have to go off and the trend is a concern. Anyone can see that we've been hit hard by injury over the past 3 seasons. You'd assume that Injury and Development would be inversely proportional to each other, therefore you would have to assume that the club are already trying to fix the underlying issue (Injuries). Trying to decipher any more information from the trend is like doing a survey on 100 people and saying it's an accurate reflection of a population.

 

[TradeDraft]

Since 2011 is really only a small sample size though, I realise it's all we have to go off and the trend is a concern. Anyone can see that we've been hit hard by injury over the past 3 seasons. You'd assume that Injury and Development would be inversely proportional to each other, therefore you would have to assume that the club are already trying to fix the underlying issue (Injuries). Trying to decipher any more information from the trend is like doing a survey on 100 people and saying it's an accurate reflection of a population.

and Clinton Young pretty much missing his 1st season thru Injury did not help him at all

 

[Bard]

It's staying the same or going backward with those 24 or older on our list. I've been saying it for a year now and it has continued.

We've got no Ben McGlynn's or Stefan Martin's going from average and are they even best 22 guys to best 50 in the game players. Nick Malceski even at 30 hit a new level this year. Matthew Jaensch at 25 broke out from a depth guy to one of the best rebounding backs in the league, now Collingwood player Levi Greenwood last year at North Melbourne went from average to an excellent midfielder. Shane Edwards found another level this year, so did Cale Hooker who prior to last year was a liability in the back half with his inability to beat his guy every week and cranked up his rebounding game further. Brent Harvey in his mid 30s had what I'd argue was a career season.

We haven't had any guys on our list from 2012-2014 improve like that from our 24 and older age group. It's just guys coming back every year with the same game or getting worse with only those under the age of 23 improving.

Right now we're a development academy and all that's leading to is some mid and lower half of the ladder finishes even if we continued to develop our young talent well.

I generally agree with this post but gee you're overrating Stefan Martin a lot

 

[rustyg70]

A lot of our issues regarding our players in the 24-25 age bracket could go down to terrible drafting during those years and giving up our early draft picks for players that didn't come on as expected.
In 2007 we picked up John McCarthy with our first pick at 31 (39 games), with our next being Tobius Thoolen (0) at 47, then Jaxson Barham (7) at 61.
2008 we got Sidebottom and Beams, but then we picked Jarrad Blight at 45 (0)and Luke Rounds at 46 (6).
In 2009 we got Ball at 30, the Sinclair at 62 and Josh Thomas at 75.

 

[Knightmare]

I generally agree with this post but gee you're overrating Stefan Martin a lot

Martin last year was the best ruckman in the game in my view anyway. Unique in style as his game is and as many hitouts as he concedes, there may not be a ruckman in the history of the game to average more disposals per game and play more like an extra midfielder. I really respect what he achieved in 2014 and found it fun to watch.

Since 2011 is really only a small sample size though, I realise it's all we have to go off and the trend is a concern. Anyone can see that we've been hit hard by injury over the past 3 seasons. You'd assume that Injury and Development would be inversely proportional to each other, therefore you would have to assume that the club are already trying to fix the underlying issue (Injuries). Trying to decipher any more information from the trend is like doing a survey on 100 people and saying it's an accurate reflection of a population.

Let's put it this way. The only team other than Collingwood not to have a player of the age of 23 or older have a single improver is Gold Coast and that's mostly because the vast majority of their list is born in 1992 (due to the club starting with the 2010 draft) or earlier and still not yet at that stage to really have enough players in that age group for it to matter.

I'll even go through alphabetically some of the other team lists to point out exactly why it's alarming and exactly how much better other clubs are doing it than us.

Adelaide - Reilly (2012), Jenkins (2014), Sloane (2014), Jacobs (2014), Doughlas (2013), Jaensch (2014), B.Martin (2014), R.Henderson (2013).
Brisbane - Hanley (2014), S.Martin (2014), Rockliff (2014).
Carlton - Walker (2013), Gibbs (2014), Simpson (2014), Rowe (2014), Henderson (2013), Armfield (2013), Everitt (2014), Curnow (2014), Tuohy (2014), White (2014), Wood (2014).
Essendon - Baguley (2014), Myers (2014), Hooker (2014).
Fremantle - Ballantyne (2014), Ibbotson (2013), Griffen (2012), Mzungu (2013), Crowley (2013), Mundy (2013), McPharlin (2011), Barlow (2013), Mayne (2013), M.Johnson (2012).

Heck even GWS have Ward improving every year with hardly anyone older than 22 and same story with Melbourne who have had Dunn improve and they've hardly developed anyone these past five seasons.

It's not like we don't have enough players 23+ on our list. We've had plenty, even accounting for injury. But yet, not one single improver outside of those 22 years of age or younger from 2012-2014. It's half if not slightly more than half the list in that span of years. That's terrible.

 

[TradeDraft]

same story with Melbourne who have had Dunn improve and they've hardly developed anyone these past five seasons.

But has anyone else at Melbourne Improved?

 

[Knightmare]

But has anyone else at Melbourne Improved?

Nathan Jones is another over 23. And this is a team that his for a long time been poor developing talent, and turning over 1000+ games of experience yearly creating an exceptionally young team list.

So even Melbourne are out-doing us with the over 23s.