Moved Thread Illicit drugs and all related issues! (split from ASADA thread)

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Jun 9, 2007
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Outside the body definitely wasn't scary. Haven't done it for ages. The first time was a Monday morning after 3 hard drinking nights. I had to get up. I had responsibilities. I tried to force my self up out of bed. I really did. But I fell back to sleep. But there I was above body getting further away. I thought I was dead and had left my body. I set off to tell a brother 'hey look I'm dead' . Movement, everything was free and easy. A little later I returned to my body with a bit of wow about it all.
A few times I did it without leaving my body. More or less like the aneathetsic wearing off but you can't move. Not so much fun but not really a problem either. I think those sorts of expereinces, and there is more of the out of body ones, come from a car accident in, believe it or not, 1968. (Was on the way to a footy clinic. Grew up in the Wimmera which became Essendon's zone and they were putting on a clinic in a nearby town (Warracknabeal). Not sure now but I think Ken Fletcher and Geoff Pryor were to be there to name two. Being an Essendon supporter was dead keen to go. There was about 8 of us in a station wagon before seat belts. The driver was the father of a few of the passengers and he crossed a major road evidently in full football discusion and we were cleaned up. I came out and went head first into a white post. I think I was the worst of it. Another chap had broken ribs. The Essendon players sent their best wishes to the hospital when they heard about it which was good but it is a concussion that still affects me. The joke at school was I got my brains unscrambled. I sort of started getting good or better marks in maths and sciences.)


As far as your arguing goes, is there more than death and the universe? And I think you are under selling sleep. Where do you think a dream occurs? Is it on atomic matter? It is a question that good science should be addressing. I have my post atomic theory on it but it is only a theory.

Or, in terms of your last sentence, if conciousness does not depend on the body, what does it depend on? Where does consciousness come from?
Thanks for sharing.

Interesting stuff interests me.

I don't think I'm underselling sleep. I agree that it is of the same essence as the psychedelic realm but I think it is usually more attuned to our corporeal drama lived out day to day with the occasional psychedelic dream occurring. Dreams play out in familiar settings with irrational/surreal scenarios and often have people you are acquainted with drifting in and out.
Psychedelics send you through unfamiliar settings and can bring encounters with inter-dimensional beings. They seem to send your consciousness further into that realm.

I think consciousness is the most important area of human understanding yet to be adequately explained by science. This is why I am so strongly in favour of exploring psychedelics as I believe they are a genuine tool readily available to us to better understand consciousness. For decades now, research has been inconceivably shut down or hindered due to government ideology rather than clear scientific reasoning.

As far as where consciousness comes from...
We can only really theorise on that one.

I think, taking into account the warped sense of space and time when in a dream/psychedelic state, that consciousness falls outside of the space/time continuum. This is why science struggles with the concept. It falls inbetween events, matter, thoughts etc. It is everywhere and nowhere. It is the centre and the circumference. All things built or designed by people, all these things around us, are products of our imagination and therefore, by definition, products of a creative force. And that creative energy is the manifestation of a unified consciousness. All matter has varying degrees of consciousness. Our cells at a rudimentary level are conscious of their own immediate environment and role and are completely unconscious of the greater, encompassing unit that relies upon its function.

So, what's this post atomic theory you speaketh of? :)
 

expires

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Thanks for sharing.

Interesting stuff interests me.

I don't think I'm underselling sleep. I agree that it is of the same essence as the psychedelic realm but I think it is usually more attuned to our corporeal drama lived out day to day with the occasional psychedelic dream occurring. Dreams play out in familiar settings with irrational/surreal scenarios and often have people you are acquainted with drifting in and out.
Psychedelics send you through unfamiliar settings and can bring encounters with inter-dimensional beings. They seem to send your consciousness further into that realm.

I think consciousness is the most important area of human understanding yet to be adequately explained by science. This is why I am so strongly in favour of exploring psychedelics as I believe they are a genuine tool readily available to us to better understand consciousness. For decades now, research has been inconceivably shut down or hindered due to government ideology rather than clear scientific reasoning.

As far as where consciousness comes from...
We can only really theorise on that one.

I think, taking into account the warped sense of space and time when in a dream/psychedelic state, that consciousness falls outside of the space/time continuum. This is why science struggles with the concept. It falls inbetween events, matter, thoughts etc. It is everywhere and nowhere. It is the centre and the circumference. All things built or designed by people, all these things around us, are products of our imagination and therefore, by definition, products of a creative force. And that creative energy is the manifestation of a unified consciousness. All matter has varying degrees of consciousness. Our cells at a rudimentary level are conscious of their own immediate environment and role and are completely unconscious of the greater, encompassing unit that relies upon its function.

So, what's this post atomic theory you speaketh of? :)

You are probably right about further into that realm. But it is still that realm. ( Didn't mind sharing, felt a bit of an idiot doing so but as there was an Essendon connection so I did. Incidentally one of the kids in the car went onto to play a handful of games when Des Tudenham was coach. Chronic hamstrings stalled his career but he was probably a whisker of the pace anyway. It was one of the son's of the driver of the car. )

When I read your mention of space time continuum I read pretentious. No-one knows what time is (beyond ageing), let alone how space and time exist as a joint entity that preserves the independence of each. Do you realize that the idea of a space time continuum was originally a science fiction idea subsequently taken up by one of Einstein's teacher. Sorry about that bit off topic anyway. Also a circumference does not have a centre. For mine that's the reason of existence but that's another story again.

Post atomic theory is also off topic beyond being something the hippie druggo culture would be more intereted in than main stream society. Basically the theory is a chromosome is a perfect electronic configuation. Can't eject an electron as in the photo electric effect. This causes the inner two electrons of a central oxygen to move to the second shell. Making that shell complete. As the chromosome aborbs more radiation, the 8 electrons accelerate and aborb the nucleus of the central oxygen atom as they do. This force field pushes the chromosome apart so as there is 2 new chromosomes and the force field of the first chromosome to divide becomes our soul (read consciousness). Something like that.

A lot more to theory actually. It is a complete evolutionary theory. I never accepted survival of the fittest as the reason of progression of a species. Survival is an effect that allows progression but it isn't a cause. With the human species I reasoned that progression is the difference between us and our parent of the same sex. That difference is the impact of our parent of the opposite sex on our parent of the same sex. That is you (if you are male) are the shape of your father with the shape of your mother running through you. At the cell level this is or would be the way the 23 chromosomes from your father sit against the 23 chromosomes from your mother. That is or would be what gives our first and subsequent cells and in turn us our shape. The theorys says the X chromosome divides first in all cells except those unique to the male. Where the Y chromosome would divide first. The evidence of this would be the human female having a more rounded shape relative to the human male (with two X chromosomes dividing simultaeously against one for a male) . Downs syndrome with 47 chromosomes and a slight variation of shape to those of us with 46 to a cell points to this being on the right track. And if it is right, cancer is simply the wrong chromosome dividing first, which may be known already. What possibly points to this being wrong is genetical engineering. Under the theory the role of our genes is relative position of one chromosome to another and the timing of a division of chromosome. Genetical engineering attributes characteristics directly to genes. Doesn't say the theory is wrong. But doesn't say it is right either. Its 30 years since I came up with that and the oxygen atom bit came to me in a dream, believe it or not. Could be the biggest load of rambling codswallop ever to and obviously tldr but force fields between chromsomes makes total sense to me. Our shape is so definite.

Not sure if that is off topic or not. Does say all related issues. On topic I used to love a bong here and there. Had and still have to a certain extent, a speech impedient. Marijuana sure as eggs lets you grace into conversation. Didn't like the smoking much but. If you can explain what time is, I will happily withdraw the sugestion of pretentiousness. (not really my nature to call anyone pretentious, I might be an online bully.)
 
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You are probably right about further into that realm. But it is still that realm. ( Didn't mind sharing, felt a bit of an idiot doing so but as there was an Essendon connection so I did. Incidentally one of the kids in the car went onto to play a handful of games when Des Tudenham was coach. Chronic hamstrings stalled his career but he was probably a whisker of the pace anyway. It was one of the son's of the driver of the car. )

When I read your mention of space time continuum I read pretentious. No-one knows what time is (beyond ageing), let alone how space and time exist as a joint entity that preserves the independence of each. Do you realize that the idea of a space time continuum was originally a science fiction idea subsequently taken up by one of Einstein's teacher. Sorry about that bit off topic anyway. Also a circumference does not have a centre. For mine that's the reason of existence but that's another story again.

Post atomic theory is also off topic beyond being something the hippie druggo culture would be more intereted in than main stream society. Basically the theory is a chromosome is a perfect electronic configuation. Can't eject an electron as in the photo electric effect. This causes the inner two electrons of a central oxygen to move to the second shell. Making that shell complete. As the chromosome aborbs more radiation, the 8 electrons accelerate and aborb the nucleus of the central oxygen atom as they do. This force field pushes the chromosome apart so as there is 2 new chromosomes and the force field of the first chromosome to divide becomes our soul (read consciousness). Something like that.

A lot more to theory actually. It is a complete evolutionary theory. I never accepted survival of the fittest as the reason of progression of a species. Survival is an effect that allows progression but it isn't a cause. With the human species I reasoned that progression is the difference between us and our parent of the same sex. That difference is the impact of our parent of the opposite sex on our parent of the same sex. That is you (if you are male) are the shape of your father with the shape of your mother running through you. At the cell level this is or would be the way the 23 chromosomes from your father sit against the 23 chromosomes from your mother. That is or would be what gives our first and subsequent cells and in turn us our shape. The theorys says the X chromosome divides first in all cells except those unique to the male. Where the Y chromosome would divide first. The evidence of this would be the human female having a more rounded shape relative to the human male (with two X chromosomes dividing simultaeously against one for a male) . Downs syndrome with 47 chromosomes and a slight variation of shape to those of us with 46 to a cell points to this being on the right track. And if it is right, cancer is simply the wrong chromosome dividing first, which may be known already. What possibly points to this being wrong is genetical engineering. Under the theory the role of our genes is relative position of one chromosome to another and the timing of a division of chromosome. Genetical engineering attributes characteristics directly to genes. Doesn't say the theory is wrong. But doesn't say it is right either. Its 30 years since I came up with that and the oxygen atom bit came to me in a dream, believe it or not. Could be the biggest load of rambling codswallop ever to and obviously tldr but force fields between chromsomes makes total sense to me. Our shape is so definite.

Not sure if that is off topic or not. Does say all related issues. On topic I used to love a bong here and there. Had and still have to a certain extent, a speech impedient. Marijuana sure as eggs lets you grace into conversation. Didn't like the smoking much but. If you can explain what time is, I will happily withdraw the sugestion of pretentiousness. (not really my nature to call anyone pretentious, I might be an online bully.)
Thanks for the in depth reply. I might need to re-read it, have a spliff, and reference some old textbooks before I give you an opinion on it.

As far as space/time goes, I take slight objection to the 'pretentious' call. That would imply that I am embellishing/making-up/trying to impress. No, I'm giving you, as best I can on an internet forum, a my perspective (that you asked for) on these experiences. Space/time, as far as I can recall, are inextricably linked and come into existence with the advent of the universe (if you follow the currently accepted model of the universe). Psychedelics are known to distort the perception of space and time thus my theorising that the psychedelic realm is somehow removed from it. I certainly don't claim to understand time but I can vouch for my own personal experiences.

My comment on it being both the centre and the circumference is a reference to the overcoming of duality paradoxes where psychedlia enables the experience of otherwise mutually exclusive phenomena.

If cannabis smooths out speech impediments, I'd be intrigued to know what pure MDMA would do for you. I had a friend in the UK with CP who could vouch for its ability to temporarily (relatively speaking of course) iron out the creases of life.
 

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expires

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Thanks for the in depth reply. I might need to re-read it, have a spliff, and reference some old textbooks before I give you an opinion on it.

As far as space/time goes, I take slight objection to the 'pretentious' call. That would imply that I am embellishing/making-up/trying to impress. No, I'm giving you, as best I can on an internet forum, a my perspective (that you asked for) on these experiences. Space/time, as far as I can recall, are inextricably linked and come into existence with the advent of the universe (if you follow the currently accepted model of the universe). Psychedelics are known to distort the perception of space and time thus my theorising that the psychedelic realm is somehow removed from it. I certainly don't claim to understand time but I can vouch for my own personal experiences.

My comment on it being both the centre and the circumference is a reference to the overcoming of duality paradoxes where psychedlia enables the experience of otherwise mutually exclusive phenomena.

If cannabis smooths out speech impediments, I'd be intrigued to know what pure MDMA would do for you. I had a friend in the UK with CP who could vouch for its ability to temporarily (relatively speaking of course) iron out the creases of life.

Think you do need a 'spliff'. Feel like really attacking you over space time. But I wont.

Wouldn't say canabis smooths out speech impedients. To describe the first time, a couple of people were talking about a book. It was Papillion actually, an autobiography by a frenchman who was held prisoner on Devil's island for murder. According to him he didn't do it. He was a safe cracker. Anyway we were indulging and they were talking about the book but had some key points wrong. Being a stammerer I couldn't just butt into the conversation of others. If asked I would do my best to answer. Anyway I drifted away from their conversation and probably started preparing the next intake, something I was never very good at. At some stage of this procedure I started talking fluently pointing out where they had it all wrong. Think they got staggered looks on their faces but wanted to know more so I kept going. Hadn't been a bad read. They possibly had seen the film but not read the book. Not sure now.

Never a real regular smoker and decided I was full of myself the way I could talk freely when under the influence after a while. These days some people don't even I know I have an impedient. You find ways of masking it and when you see a problem ahead you reconstruct what you are about to say without altering context. No-one near as bad as it used to be but think it has to do with self esteem as much as a technical issue. In my case anyway. Was always of the view that if I had to alert a crowd of fire in the building, I would get the words out so was never that big a deal. (Have three kids. They don't stammer although the boy mumbles. And grunts.)
 

Bennett.

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Incidentally, a three year old was stuck by a needle in a park over here recently. How does that factor in for the apologists here?
 
Incidentally, a three year old was stuck by a needle in a park over here recently. How does that factor in for the apologists here?
I'm not sure that you'd find anyone here who thinks whoever left that needle there isn't a ******* selfish prick.

Of course, that then opens up the whole question of safe injecting rooms and the like too.
 

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After reading the last couple of pages, my only input related to the discussion is that Pappilon is a pretty damn good read and beats the movie hands down (as most books tend to do imo)
 

Bennett.

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I'm not sure that you'd find anyone here who thinks whoever left that needle there isn't a ******* selfish prick.

Of course, that then opens up the whole question of safe injecting rooms and the like too.

So people would have to travel x amount just to shoot up safely? Not going to happen.
At the end of the day, a young boy has to wait 6 months to see if he has a life sentence thanks to
Some junkie filth. Sorry, but no amount of 'harm minimisation' works and is just enabling people to not take responsibility for themselves nor have accountability to anyone else.
 
Well, those 'junkie filth', as you term them, often have bloody sad circumstances and I find such derogatory terms pretty unsavoury, personally.

I'm not sure how you can rule a line through harm minimisation strategies when they have demonstrably helped, either. I don't think anyone's claiming they're the whole solution, but if it means you have even 20% of dependent drug users dragged out of alleyways and parks, then I can't see how that's a bad thing.

I'll put it this way. Drug dependent people are not going to be put off shooting up if there aren't safe and sanitary places to do so- they'll just go ahead and do it somewhere unsafe anyway.
 

Bennett.

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Well, those 'junkie filth', as you term them, often have bloody sad circumstances and I find such derogatory terms pretty unsavoury, personally.

I'm not sure how you can rule a line through harm minimisation strategies when they have demonstrably helped, either. I don't think anyone's claiming they're the whole solution, but if it means you have even 20% of dependent drug users dragged out of alleyways and parks, then I can't see how that's a bad thing.

I'll put it this way. Drug dependent people are not going to be put off shooting up if there aren't safe and sanitary places to do so- they'll just go ahead and do it somewhere unsafe anyway.

Sorry man, leaving needles in a playground makes someone filth regardless, and most of the sad circumstances are self inflicted.
 
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Incidentally, a three year old was stuck by a needle in a park over here recently. How does that factor in for the apologists here?
Sounds like more evidence that prohibition is failing abysmally.

Sorry, but no amount of 'harm minimisation' works and is just enabling people to not take responsibility for themselves nor have accountability to anyone else.
And yet all the research and the practical evidence of drug policy around the globe says you're wrong. But hey, I'm sure you know better.
 
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Bennett.

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Sounds like more evidence that prohibition is failing abysmally.

And yet all the research and the practical evidence of drug policy around the globe says you're wrong. But hey, I'm sure you know better.

Believe it or not, I know a little bit
 

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That's a generalisation that simply cannot be made.

I've spent 18 years as a youth and social worker. I'm comfortable with that generalisation
 
I've spent 18 years as a youth and social worker. I'm comfortable with that generalisation
Well I'm not. I know several who've been addicted to one substance or another at some point.

Nearly all of them have been abused at some point, usually as kids or teenagers. None of that is self inflicted.
 

Bennett.

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Well I'm not. I know several who've been addicted to one substance or another at some point.

Nearly all of them have been abused at some point, usually as kids or teenagers. None of that is self inflicted.

Doss, everyone in some way, shape or form has been abused in their lives. That doesn't mean that everyone needs to ingest as many narcotics as possible to get through the day. Everyone is responsible for their own choices. Making excuses for people doesn't help the problem, it enables people to continue on living without any accountabilities in place, when we should be challenging destructive behaviours and trying to provide hope to people.
 

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Wonderful. Perhaps you can explain how prohibition has worked and harm minimisation hasn't over the past 18 years, with recourse to some actual evidence.

Ah, you're one of those people who only believes peer reviewed nonsense before it is legitimate?
Again, I've only got 18 or so years of experience, sorry, I probably don't know all that much.
 
Well, no, there's abuse and then there's profound abuse. I grew up with a depressive mother. She went through real lows sometimes. Not abuse per se, but challenging at times- sure.

I'm talking profound, overt abuse. Wheher that be a parent or sibling who was physically violent, or sexually abusive.

Such behaviour profoundly *s people up. I'm not saying it gives them a free pass for life, but by the same token, it undoubtedly predisposes them to be more likely to fall into destructive cycles like this. That's why I bristle at the suggestion it's all their own fault.
 

Bennett.

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Well, no, there's abuse and then there's profound abuse. I grew up with a depressive mother. She went through real lows sometimes. Not abuse per se, but challenging at times- sure.

I'm talking profound, overt abuse. Wheher that be a parent or sibling who was physically violent, or sexually abusive.

Such behaviour profoundly ****s people up. I'm not saying it gives them a free pass for life, but by the same token, it undoubtedly predisposes them to be more likely to fall into destructive cycles like this. That's why I bristle at the suggestion it's all their own fault.

Absolutely it does, but we should be encouraging people to deal with the issues and recover from them, not be bound by them.
 

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