Is our midfield over rated?

[clivenator26]

Sounds like we need Josh Simpson to get his s**t together. Add him & sometimes Sonny or Crozier to the mix and it gives a bit more zip.

Not holding my breath Josh will come good but given it's season over and time to fantasise I'll fantasise about him on one wing, Hill on the other and pumping it in slickly to bullet Pav on the tit.

 

[rgauci]

Sutcliffe to the wing, C.Pearce into the backline. Makes me happy just thinking about it.

 

[apuchar]

Seems like Clancee, when he is playing well is the pick out of He, deboer or Suban.

 

[Quant]

Suban and Debeor only 25, lets hope they actually decide to improve because these two have stagnated.

 

[strobe00]

I think we have been seduced by the big bodied midfielder narrative. It has progressed us to this point but we can't go the next step.
We lack class, creativity and speed.
Morabito is a bull but I don't think he offers what we most need.
I don't want to heap pressure on a 20 year old but Crozier looks like the main one that can step up immediately. That and Walters into the midfield - hopefully these two will be trying to get their endurance up over summer.
If we can get those two running around consistently with Hilly, that is a big step up in class. Have Fyfe/Barlow/Neale inside, and Mundy floats around as the icing on the cake, we will improve.

Yep. This.

the big bodied thing is meaningless when you fumble the ball, can't find a target outside the stoppage and lack the pace to shut down their spread.

Stone and kirk need a rocket... our clearances have been an issue for a fair while now, considering we have a coach whose entire job is to focus on stoppages, and we have a hitout machine.

P!ss poor. More time to be sunk into structure required around clearances, and quick hands drills to allow a quick takeaway.

Teams that shut down our first possession game then easily win the ball. Structure and skills just aren't good enough when the ball is in dispute. Relying too much on set plays, and not enough work put into winning the ball, and linking it out effectively.

Just study sydney in the off season and bring in some of their drills and structures. They often concede the first possession... about 11th in the afl... but still win lots of dangerous clearances... and they often hang onto it rather than just turning it straight back over. Much harder to shut down as they don't rely on a set play to win the ball.

 

[Grape Bear]

the disadvantage of being the hunted is that teams put in a lot of time dismantling your game plan and working you out. i think that's part of what has happened this year.

ross and his coaching team need to go back to the drawing board this summer to tinker with the way we set up in order to claw back the advantage we have having three big-bodied midfielders and a monster ruckman who will always win the taps.

 

[electricfeel]

I felt like the team became a bit more dependent on Fyfe this season. Last season I felt we had a large spread of matches where Barlow would be BOG or Mundy would be BOG, this year it seemed a bit all up to Fyfe to have a BOG performance and win the game for us. I think that's reflective in the coaches votes as well. Fyfe was miles ahead of everyone else.

Having said that though, Hill probably had his best season and Lachie Neale stepped up enormously. Too many times though, it was all left to a couple of players whereas last year, the entire midfield really stepped up and played consistent footy week in, week out.

 

[daiks]

I felt like the team became a bit more dependent on Fyfe this season. Last season I felt we had a large spread of matches where Barlow would be BOG or Mundy would be BOG, this year it seemed a bit all up to Fyfe to have a BOG performance and win the game for us. I think that's reflective in the coaches votes as well. Fyfe was miles ahead of everyone else.

Having said that though, Hill probably had his best season and Lachie Neale stepped up enormously. Too many times though, it was all left to a couple of players whereas last year, the entire midfield really stepped up and played consistent footy week in, week out.

completely agree on this, it felt like it was fyfe or nothing else. barlow only had a couple of stand out games and mundy made appearances here and there. hill still struggles with the tag and cant be relied on to be a week in/week out performer.

 

[Hilton71]

completely agree on this, it felt like it was fyfe or nothing else. barlow only had a couple of stand out games and mundy made appearances here and there. hill still struggles with the tag and cant be relied on to be a week in/week out performer.

 

[Hilton71]

completely agree on this, it felt like it was fyfe or nothing else. barlow only had a couple of stand out games and mundy made appearances here and there. hill still struggles with the tag and cant be relied on to be a week in/week out performer.

Sorry fellas first post and got a little excited. I agree with both your thoughts about Fyfe who dominated this year but Barlow and Mundy didn't have the same impact as 2013. That said, Neale certainly stepped up and I too thought that Hill had his best year and was a bit stronger at getting his own ball and ripping it out of packs but gets shut out for long periods that really hurts.

I like the idea of running Hill off half back and think he he's tall enough and good enough overhead to play a link-up role. Even take a few kicks outs from the goal square. I could see him replacing Duff down back, who's been good over the journey but had me frustrated with his disposal at times through the year.

 

[blue shark]

completely agree on this, it felt like it was fyfe or nothing else. barlow only had a couple of stand out games and mundy made appearances here and there. hill still struggles with the tag and cant be relied on to be a week in/week out performer.

Our midfield is very predictable, and time may be up for Crowley, must win more of the ball. Simpson, sherro, need huge pre-seasons to keep
the pressure on Pearce, Hill. Mundy could also be played as a flanker, turning up for half a game?

 

[go_the_dockers]

A Graders
Fyfe, Mundy, Barlow - All big bodied inside\outside mids
Hill - Outside mid
B Graders
Neale, Mzungu, Sutcliffe
C Graders
D Pearce, H Crozier (last 3-4 games he has played like a B grader)
D Graders
Suban, de Boer, C Pearce, Sheridan

Unknown
Sylvia, Morabito, Simpson - At their best they are B+ players, but I am not sure what we will get from them. If they all have a big preseason it would make a massive difference to our side.

I don't think Suban, de Boer or C Pearce have another level in them and we should look to trade them.

We need players like Neale, Sutcliffe, Sheridan and Crozier to take another step so we have genuine depth in our midfield. I would like to see Mundy to play off half back flank at times, and to pinch hit in the centre square.

I would like to see us copy the Hawks plan of running more people through the midfield and adding greater flexability to our team.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-03-22/flexihawks-please-clarko

This is a very good article about the Hawks, and talks about the changes they made after the 2012 grand final loss to boost the number of players that play through the middle. They did this by playing Mitchell and Hodge off the back flank and allow more players to play through the middle.

This way that have more flexability, and when one option is not working they can change it up. It would be great going into a Grand final knowing we have 7 or 8 players that can go thorugh the centre square, Mundy can play off the back flank, Fyfe and Barlow can play of the forward flank and Walters, Crozier, Sheridan, Neale, etc etc can all have a run through the midfield.

 

[Ausbenito]

A Graders
Fyfe, Mundy, Barlow - All big bodied inside\outside mids
Hill - Outside mid
B Graders
Neale, Mzungu, Sutcliffe
C Graders
D Pearce, H Crozier (last 3-4 games he has played like a B grader)
D Graders
Suban, de Boer, C Pearce, Sheridan

Unknown
Sylvia, Morabito, Simpson - At their best they are B+ players, but I am not sure what we will get from them. If they all have a big preseason it would make a massive difference to our side.

I don't think Suban, de Boer or C Pearce have another level in them and we should look to trade them.

We need players like Neale, Sutcliffe, Sheridan and Crozier to take another step so we have genuine depth in our midfield. I would like to see Mundy to play off half back flank at times, and to pinch hit in the centre square.

I would like to see us copy the Hawks plan of running more people through the midfield and adding greater flexability to our team.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-03-22/flexihawks-please-clarko

This is a very good article about the Hawks, and talks about the changes they made after the 2012 grand final loss to boost the number of players that play through the middle. They did this by playing Mitchell and Hodge off the back flank and allow more players to play through the middle.

This way that have more flexability, and when one option is not working they can change it up. It would be great going into a Grand final knowing we have 7 or 8 players that can go thorugh the centre square, Mundy can play off the back flank, Fyfe and Barlow can play of the forward flank and Walters, Crozier, Sheridan, Neale, etc etc can all have a run through the midfield.

Like your ideas some mad ones have been thrown out no way Walters will be played midfield he is a forward line genius would definitely push Mundy back to half back use his best asset more distributing the ball. Crozier to replace Pearce on a wing and maybe even De Boer to take over from Crowley.

 

[smokingjacket]

Yep. This.

the big bodied thing is meaningless when you fumble the ball, can't find a target outside the stoppage and lack the pace to shut down their spread.

Stone and kirk need a rocket... our clearances have been an issue for a fair while now, considering we have a coach whose entire job is to focus on stoppages, and we have a hitout machine.

P!ss poor. More time to be sunk into structure required around clearances, and quick hands drills to allow a quick takeaway.

Teams that shut down our first possession game then easily win the ball. Structure and skills just aren't good enough when the ball is in dispute. Relying too much on set plays, and not enough work put into winning the ball, and linking it out effectively.

Just study sydney in the off season and bring in some of their drills and structures. They often concede the first possession... about 11th in the afl... but still win lots of dangerous clearances... and they often hang onto it rather than just turning it straight back over. Much harder to shut down as they don't rely on a set play to win the ball.

Nailed it.

Our one strategy for winning a clean clearance this year appeared to be using the 24 year old with the dodgy shoulders as a battering ram. If that fails drop it at the foot of the contest and hope we win a scrap or at least the opposition won't get a clean take away either.

As you say though, against a team like Sydney who use the ball in tight well that doesn't work. I'd put the Bulldogs and on Hawthorn in that category too.

When we picked up Sylvia I really hoped that he would offer something in this regard. That clean, almost Judd-like burst from a stoppage with clean hands on the way out. There was one game where he pulled off two of these and I was rubbing my hands together and then we threw him back in the forward line next game and he dished up back to back rubbish.

The whole clearance setup needs to overhauled, with the Fyfe on the run tactic as a shock move not the default or he'll win a Brownlow in 2015 and be buggered by 2017. Most teams countered it by the finals anyway by placing a big sweeper goal side.

We're a smart team so let's find some smart strategies to get clean ball movement.

 

[im_a_lazy_sod]

the disadvantage of being the hunted is that teams put in a lot of time dismantling your game plan and working you out. i think that's part of what has happened this year.

ross and his coaching team need to go back to the drawing board this summer to tinker with the way we set up in order to claw back the advantage we have having three big-bodied midfielders and a monster ruckman who will always win the taps.

Yeah, I felt we were "the team to beat" for most of the year. Teams put in that little bit extra against it and the umpires seemed to adhere to that and really make it hard for is in some instances (not all, however).

Carlton put in a massive effort against us (and credit to them), as did St. Kilda, Richmond, West Coast (they usually do anyway), North etc. etc.

I agree with you that we need to re-work our midfield in order to give us some alternative plays for when the chips are down - Pavlich in the middle was one option which was used, but it worked best when Tabener was actually playing well and the two could tag team through the middle and CHF. Fyfe gets scragged at every *ing contest and the umpires seem to *love* pinging him for htb, as well as high fend-offs and other nonsense.

 

[arrow_dactyl]

Here's a suggestion which may not go down well, shove a rocket up Sylvia's arse and hope he has a massive pre-season. Drop Crowley and play Sylvia in his preferred position as an inside mid (If he deserves it at that point).

 

[Seppo]

A Graders
Fyfe, Mundy, Barlow - All big bodied inside\outside mids
Hill - Outside mid
B Graders
Neale, Mzungu, Sutcliffe
C Graders
D Pearce, H Crozier (last 3-4 games he has played like a B grader)
D Graders
Suban, de Boer, C Pearce, Sheridan

Unknown
Sylvia, Morabito, Simpson - At their best they are B+ players, but I am not sure what we will get from them. If they all have a big preseason it would make a massive difference to our side.

I don't think Suban, de Boer or C Pearce have another level in them and we should look to trade them.

We need players like Neale, Sutcliffe, Sheridan and Crozier to take another step so we have genuine depth in our midfield. I would like to see Mundy to play off half back flank at times, and to pinch hit in the centre square.

I would like to see us copy the Hawks plan of running more people through the midfield and adding greater flexability to our team.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-03-22/flexihawks-please-clarko

This is a very good article about the Hawks, and talks about the changes they made after the 2012 grand final loss to boost the number of players that play through the middle. They did this by playing Mitchell and Hodge off the back flank and allow more players to play through the middle.

This way that have more flexability, and when one option is not working they can change it up. It would be great going into a Grand final knowing we have 7 or 8 players that can go thorugh the centre square, Mundy can play off the back flank, Fyfe and Barlow can play of the forward flank and Walters, Crozier, Sheridan, Neale, etc etc can all have a run through the midfield.

Being the buddy of T-Train, I would have thought you would give him a bit more love than label him as D-Grade. I reckon when he back into our side he is at least a C grader. He adds what we are missing to some degree. Have a look back to round 1 this year against Collingwood.

 

[go_the_dockers]

Being the buddy of T-Train, I would have thought you would give him a bit more love than label him as D-Grade. I reckon when he back into our side he is at least a C grader. He adds what we are missing to some degree. Have a look back to round 1 this year against Collingwood.

I rate him higher than that but has not taken the next step which crozier has. I am hoping this was a building year, but I expected him to play at least 10 games this year after playing in gf last year.

I hope both him and crozier will be b graders next year but to get their they both must cement their spot in the 22 and perform week in week out.

Next year will be a very important year for Sheridan.

 

[electricfeel]

Given that Neale, Sutty and to an extent Crozier have now come on board and cemented their spots in the 22, hopefully that's motivation for Sheridan to put in a big pre season and join the rest of his 2011 draft mates in finding a spot in the 22

 

[JimDocker]

Interesting that in the first half this year against Carlton at Subi. No matter who we had on Judd, he beat them. Judd is one of the greatest players of all time, but I would have backed our guys to beat him one on one nowadays. He gave us a lesson that day.

We certainly have some talent in there, just need some tweaking form people that know more about inside footy than me.

 

[clogged]

Nailed it.

Our one strategy for winning a clean clearance this year appeared to be using the 24 year old with the dodgy shoulders as a battering ram. If that fails drop it at the foot of the contest and hope we win a scrap or at least the opposition won't get a clean take away either.

As you say though, against a team like Sydney who use the ball in tight well that doesn't work. I'd put the Bulldogs and on Hawthorn in that category too.

When we picked up Sylvia I really hoped that he would offer something in this regard. That clean, almost Judd-like burst from a stoppage with clean hands on the way out. There was one game where he pulled off two of these and I was rubbing my hands together and then we threw him back in the forward line next game and he dished up back to back rubbish.

The whole clearance setup needs to overhauled, with the Fyfe on the run tactic as a shock move not the default or he'll win a Brownlow in 2015 and be buggered by 2017. Most teams countered it by the finals anyway by placing a big sweeper goal side.

We're a smart team so let's find some smart strategies to get clean ball movement.

Fyfe's only 22, but it's a fair point you make.

I don't think the side can afford a lumbering 190+ cm tagger at the centre clearances. Too often sides got clean centre breaks against Freo, and it often came when Crowley was in the centre square and Clarke rucked. That combination opens Freo up, because Clarke is a lesser tap ruckman, the midfield can be hurt on a quick break from a less congested clearance.

 

[TheMcManusNose]

the big bodied thing is meaningless when you fumble the ball, can't find a target outside the stoppage and lack the pace to shut down their spread.

Just study sydney in the off season and bring in some of their drills and structures. They often concede the first possession... about 11th in the afl... but still win lots of dangerous clearances... and they often hang onto it rather than just turning it straight back over. Much harder to shut down as they don't rely on a set play to win the ball.

The Sydney advantage relates directly to being able to find that target outside, as you say. Their spread as soon they gain possession is very very good. The thing they have over us there is they have some very, very good ball users whose job it is to be that target, Malceski, McVeigh, Shaw and very Hanneberry and Jack. We tend to rely more on Fyfe, Barlow or Mundy actually getting clear by themselves (although JPK is probably as good as Fyfe in that respect).

Running Sutcliffe and Crozier through the midfield more makes a lot of sense if we want to emulate that. Simpson is obviously a big question mark, as is Sheridan to my mind (he is not quick but he does have a good kick).

Sylvia's an interesting one. Although he does have good pace, he's probably more in that do it yourself mode.

 

[smokingjacket]

Fyfe's only 22, but it's a fair point you make.

I don't think the side can afford a lumbering 190+ cm tagger at the centre clearances. Too often sides got clean centre breaks against Freo, and it often came when Crowley was in the centre square and Clarke rucked. That combination opens Freo up, because Clarke is a lesser tap ruckman, the midfield can be hurt on a quick break from a less congested clearance.

I actually typed 22 at first and changed it because it felt too young.

I agree with everything you've said here but there's another point too. Is our midfield good enough to win the ball, even under Sandilands, if a GAJ, Selwood, Stevie J, Pendlebury, Boak etc. are running around without having someone muscling them out of the contest at a stoppage?

Maybe it would be good for a game, a bit like against St Kilda for Ross to play without Crowley in the square and see how the mids do in a one on one situation.

Some of these guys have had a pretty good ride playing under the most dominant tap ruckman of the modern era and with the protection of a huge bodied tagger.

 

[strobe00]

The Sydney advantage relates directly to being able to find that target outside, as you say. Their spread as soon they gain possession is very very good. The thing they have over us there is they have some very, very good ball users whose job it is to be that target, Malceski, McVeigh, Shaw and very Hanneberry and Jack. We tend to rely more on Fyfe, Barlow or Mundy actually getting clear by themselves (although JPK is probably as good as Fyfe in that respect).

Running Sutcliffe and Crozier through the midfield more makes a lot of sense if we want to emulate that. Simpson is obviously a big question mark, as is Sheridan to my mind (he is not quick but he does have a good kick).

Sylvia's an interesting one. Although he does have good pace, he's probably more in that do it yourself mode.

The thing Sydney seem to do well is to maintain their spacing around the clearance. They seem to avoid clumping up, and cover the space better. As they're usually a couple of steps apart a quick handball will give the receiver time to find the next link in the chain.

3 handballs and they're out of congestion and off to a runner flying past the flank of the stoppage. Almost no chance of stopping it once the second or third handball is on its way, as there's more space the further you get from the clearance.

In contrast our guys clump up like auskickers at times, and either spoil each other's possession/attack on the ball, or leave gap that the Sydney mids can loiter in to be that first or second target.

Hawthorn did this to us in round 3 and tore us a new one. We did a much better job of shutting it down in the return game. Sydney caught us twice by doing it.

 

[Taylor]

Our half back line doesn't run through the centre bounce like other teams do, our forward clearances are off the boot of our mids, or a winger gets involved.