Is Shoey in our best 22?

[Hawker1167]

If you think Schoey has done nothing this year you need to watch the games again.

I am aloud to have my thoughts and I believe with a fully fit list he is not in the best 22

 

[Main Man]

We had our full array of KP available in round 6 and 7, I think its fair to say he was part of our best 22 and was going to be utilized as a forward this year as a direct replacement for Franklin.
He was always going to get given plenty of time to capture forward form after returning from a knee once he made into the side, but injuries to KP personel had put that to the back burner.
The difference between Hodge and Lake is that Hodge can be covered by competent midfielder. What we would see in a final if Lake went down and Shoey not playing is Spangher on a Tippett. If you think Shoey gets rag dolled at times you haven't seen anything yet. Plan for the worst hope for the best.

Like I said, I'm skeptical on Shoey I don't believe he is an automatic best 22.

Schoenmakers didn't play in Round 6 and in Round 7 Stratton and Spangher were not playing and since that point in time other players who were not necessarily considered best 22 have put their hands up for senior selection more so than what Schoenmakers has.

I don't buy the argument that he should be there for cover, Lake is less likely to get injured during a game than injured so you can't afford to pick a player over another more deserving for the sake of contingency plans.

The only considerable time Schoenmakers has spent forward this year has been against the rubbish teams, he was good against St Kilda but any AFL standard player would have been that day and he has been pretty ordinary in the last 2 weeks, given his lack of pace we will get killed on the rebound by good teams such as Geelong who have killed us in this department in recent years.

You know what our forward line has been without him as part of it, yes that is right the highest scoring forward line in the competition and one of the best functioning forwards lines in recent history, so those suggesting Clarkson wants him there are clutching at straws in my opinion.

Anyway we will find out what happens in the first week of finals when we hopefully have all hands on deck.

 

[Randy Campbell]

i wish this thread had more structure to it.

whether shoey is best 22 or not, well that is tested every week. he was last week and i bet he is again this week.

Followed by this.

 

[dipper86]

Schoenmakers didn't play in Round 6 and in Round 7 Stratton and Spangher were not playing and since that point in time other players who were not necessarily considered best 22 have put their hands up for senior selection more so than what Schoenmakers has.

Firstly, Stratton ain't a KPP. Secondly, You're assuming that Clarkson and the match commitee thought that Spangher was infront of Shoenmakers in the pecking order of KPP, In Round 7 we had our best KP talent available and Shoey was in the side as a forward who trained the pre season as a forward and had played at Box hill as a forward. Surely you're not suggesting that Spangher was infront of Shoey in the pecking order at the time.

I don't buy the argument that he should be there for cover, Lake is less likely to get injured during a game than injured so you can't afford to pick a player over another more deserving for the sake of contingency plans.

I never said its the only reason but none the less its still a compelling reason why you would choose one over the other. Versatility is one of Clarkson's main strengths and contingency plans are a big part of his weekday setup.

You know what our forward line has been without him as part of it, yes that is right the highest scoring forward line in the competition and one of the best functioning forwards lines in recent history, so those suggesting Clarkson wants him there are clutching at straws in my opinion.

So you're saying that Shoey playing forward line has made us less potent....care to back that up. We are not anymore less potent or more potent with him in it thus far, But potentially by having him in the side and playing a role, making a defender accountable and in doing so creating space behind him it may leave Roughead or Gunston one out rather than being double teamed.

 

[Pessimistic]

Automatic best 22 ? No
Getting a game ? Yes

Question is will he be overtaken by younger candidates before the established kpps retire ?

And how much opportunity should he get compared to these ?

 

[Main Man]

So you're saying Schoemakers should play ahead of Stratton?

Clearly they do have Spangher ahead as a defender given they are playing him there.

What evidence do you have then that Schoenmakers improves our forward line, none, what it does is squeeze other more deserving players out of other positions upsetting team balance.

You say it yourself "potentially", sorry we are trying to win premierships not play someone because it potentially does something.

He is surplus to the needs this year as many people have said.

 

[Pessimistic]

13 out of 15 possible games surplus to be exact.

Maybe he'll be a steven lawrence type by the time his career is over

 

[GoldenHodge]

If we are interested in winning the Premiership in 2014, then Shoey should never be a part of the First 22!...Lacks poise & makes too many pivotal errors at crucial times & shows no signs of this trend abating anytime soon....2011 Prelim anyone?

From memory he played quite well in the 2012 grand final. Which is more than I can say for some players on that day.

 

[Brishawk]

Clearly they do have Spangher ahead as a defender given they are playing him there.

This isn't clear. Clearly Clarko wants two kpd and clearly he wants three talls forwards. Clearly he wanted to play shoey up forward this season. These are all demonstrable by what has actually happened. As pointed out many times if lake comes back spang will likely go out leaving shoey's position in the team completely independent of how spang is going in defence.

 

[Main Man]

This isn't clear. Clearly Clarko wants two kpd and clearly he wants three talls forwards. Clearly he wanted to play shoey up forward this season. These are all demonstrable by what has actually happened. As pointed out many times if lake comes back spang will likely go out leaving shoey's position in the team completely independent of how spang is going in defence.

What you have just said is what you are hoping will happen not necessarily what Clarko wants to happen or have you sat down in the team meetings with him.

I have heard him say that Spangher is an important player for us a few times this season along with Fagan, not sure I have heard the same said of Schoenmakers but maybe I'm not listening?

Clarkson spoke on radio yesterday and was questioned on whether Spangher and Schoenmakers fighting for the one spot, he avoided answering to a certain extent but said both are capable of playing both ends so a lot will come down to form and match ups.

But I would think it is likely that these two will be competing for the one spot and both could very well end up out of the team.

I hope you will be okay if and when Schoenmakers doesn't play in the finals as you clearly want him in there, the thought of him not appears unbearable for you.

Anyway I'm done arguing over 2 of the least important players on the list, only another couple of weeks and we get the find out what happens.

 

[Collins-Langford-Ayres]

So you're saying Schoemakers should play ahead of Stratton?

Clearly they do have Spangher ahead as a defender given they are playing him there.

What evidence do you have then that Schoenmakers improves our forward line, none, what it does is squeeze other more deserving players out of other positions upsetting team balance.

You say it yourself "potentially", sorry we are trying to win premierships not play someone because it potentially does something.

He is surplus to the needs this year as many people have said.

Not necessarily. It could be that the gap between Schoey as a forward over Spang, is greater than Spang or Schoey as a defender over the other.

 

[Randy Campbell]

What you have just said is what you are hoping will happen not necessarily what Clarko wants to happen or have you sat down in the team meetings with him.

I have heard him say that Spangher is an important player for us a few times this season along with Fagan, not sure I have heard the same said of Schoenmakers but maybe I'm not listening?

Clarkson spoke on radio yesterday and was questioned on whether Spangher and Schoenmakers fighting for the one spot, he avoided answering to a certain extent but said both are capable of playing both ends so a lot will come down to form and match ups.

But I would think it is likely that these two will be competing for the one spot and both could very well end up out of the team.

I hope you will be okay if and when Schoenmakers doesn't play in the finals as you clearly want him in there, the thought of him not appears unbearable for you.

Anyway I'm done arguing over 2 of the least important players on the list, only another couple of weeks and we get the find out what happens.

I am glad we have both.

 

[Pessimistic]

What you have just said is what you are hoping will happen not necessarily what Clarko wants to happen or have you sat down in the team meetings with him.

I have heard him say that Spangher is an important player for us a few times this season along with Fagan, not sure I have heard the same said of Schoenmakers but maybe I'm not listening?

Clarkson spoke on radio yesterday and was questioned on whether Spangher and Schoenmakers fighting for the one spot, he avoided answering to a certain extent but said both are capable of playing both ends so a lot will come down to form and match ups.

But I would think it is likely that these two will be competing for the one spot and both could very well end up out of the team.

I hope you will be okay if and when Schoenmakers doesn't play in the finals as you clearly want him in there, the thought of him not appears unbearable for you.

Anyway I'm done arguing over 2 of the least important players on the list, only another couple of weeks and we get the find out what happens.

Why would clarko disappoint particular players publicly when injuries and suspension means they are very much best 22 at the moment ?

Anyway, if you are not an automatic selection, versatility is the key to more chances

 

[dipper86]

So you're saying Schoemakers should play ahead of Stratton?

I said nothing of the sort. I said Stratton isn't a KPP, he's a 3rd medium tall. Shoenmakers didn't replace Stratton in the line up.
Infact it was Litherland, 3rd tall for 3rd tall in that game.

Clearly they do have Spangher ahead as a defender given they are playing him there.

Or Clarko is playing Shoey according to the way he originally wanted to structure the team up and Spangher is nothing more than a fill in for Lake.

What evidence do you have then that Schoenmakers improves our forward line, none, what it does is squeeze other more deserving players out of other positions upsetting team balance.

Hey mate..... you're the one that made the baseless comment. Either you put up or retract.

You say it yourself "potentially", sorry we are trying to win premierships not play someone because it potentially does something.

He is surplus to the needs this year as many people have said.

Since when do you win a premiership in the Home and Away season.
Surely you're not saying that the club doesn't experiment with players in certain positions and then at times line up structurally to the way they want to line up come finals.


I'll reiterate, I don't necessarily believe he is in our best 22, my argument was in regards to the way Clarko wanted to structure up....and that was with Shoey as a forward. He trained forward in the pre-season, played at box hill in the forward line and came into the side and played as a forward untill injuries occured. At every opportunity Clarko has had with having a full compliment of KP defenders at his disposal he has sent Shoey forward. (which hasn't been many)

 

[TheFourPillars]

They'd both be surplus this year as well unless you think O'Brien and Brand are going to be regularly playing games as of next year?
Fact is, injuries will happen and guys like Schoey and Spang are worth their weight in gold when that happens. They're not good enough to demand a big salary but they are good enough to come in and play a role.

Spang is much older and I get the feeling he just wants to keep playing for as long as he can. I imagine he'll be offered a contract of about 150-200k for at least another year.

Schoey is still quite young and was looking very promising before he did his knee. It sometimes takes a full year to get back to where you were following an ACL so I think it would be foolish to trade him away for peanuts this year and potentially risk having that move come back to bite us. If Brand and O'Brien have stepped up and we're still having this discussion about whether or not he's best 22 this time next year (assuming he has no major injury set backs) then perhaps then it will be time to move him on.

I think team balance will mean that schoey and spangh wont play in the team in finals all things going well for us. One of them might play if we play the swans but against everyone else they are surplus to needs.

 

[Flukey!]

I think team balance will mean that schoey and spangh wont play in the team in finals all things going well for us. One of them might play if we play the swans but against everyone else they are surplus to needs.

Who do you see replacing them?
Lake and ????

 

[TheFourPillars]

Rioli

 

[Flukey!]

Rioli

I would think Rioli would come in at the expense of Simpkin, Hartung or even Doc.
More of a like for like.

That said, with a full squad, both Spang and Shoe probably miss.

 

[dipper86]

Who do you see replacing them?
Lake and ????

B:,............ Lake, Stratton

HB: Birchall Gibson,............

C: Hill, Mitchell, Smith

HF: Burgoyne, Gunston, Lewis

F: Breust, Roughead, Puopolo

R: McEvoy, Hodge, ........

INT: Suckling, Rioli , Shiels, .......... (Sub)


Certainties with spots available.

9 doesn't go into 4

Sewelll Langford Simpkin Litherland, Spangher Shoey, Ceglar, Hale, Dureya

 

[Big A]

I think we should put our wiz bang 5 mins left pressure cooker match simulation training on Shoe repeatedly.
This is all he should do at training.
All his training should be this, but tell him it's 120 mins not 5.
Put the earplugs in, 100k crown roaring and baying for blood, Hawks leading by 5 with 5 mins to go...ball in Shoe's hands
Sink or swim with the shoemeister IMHO. If he can't handle it and come through the GAGF back to BH, if you're lucky

Together with....more importantly...

Find out WTF pisses him off most...what hurts him most. Is it his girl doing the dirty, somebody treating him mum badly, somebody messing with his ponytail? FFS sake find out, then torture him with it and instil that mongrel fricken kaaarnt into him

120 mins of pressure cooker together with hurt should see him come up to speed

Is a wasted talent (and body) otherwise

 

[TheFourPillars]

It will take something really special to beat this team.

B:Litherland, Lake, Stratton

HB: Birchall, Gibson, Hodge

C: Hill, Mitchell, Smith

HF: Burgoyne, Gunston, Rioli

F: Breust, Roughead, Puopolo

R: McEvoy, Lewis, Shiels

INT: Suckling, Sewell,Hale Langers/Simpkin (Sub)

 

[cryptor]

I think we should put our wiz bang 5 mins left pressure cooker match simulation training on Shoe repeatedly.
This is all he should do at training.
All his training should be this, but tell him it's 120 mins not 5.
Put the earplugs in, 100k crown roaring and baying for blood, Hawks leading by 5 with 5 mins to go...ball in Shoe's hands
Sink or swim with the shoemeister IMHO. If he can't handle it and come through the GAGF back to BH, if you're lucky

Together with....more importantly...

Find out WTF pisses him off most...what hurts him most. Is it his girl doing the dirty, somebody treating him mum badly, somebody messing with his ponytail? FFS sake find out, then torture him with it and instil that mongrel fricken kaaarnt into him

120 mins of pressure cooker together with hurt should see him come up to speed

Is a wasted talent (and body) otherwise

Once he's reached full mongrel fricken kaaarnt enlightenment...

then, and only then...

will he be ready to play for the Sydney Swans - a team for full mongrel fricken kaaarnts.

 

[ACTion Hawks]

It will take something really special to beat this team.

B:Litherland, Lake, Stratton

HB: Birchall, Gibson, Hodge

C: Hill, Mitchell, Smith

HF: Burgoyne, Gunston, Rioli

F: Breust, Roughead, Puopolo

R: McEvoy, Lewis, Shiels

INT: Suckling, Sewell,Hale Langers/Simpkin (Sub)

I like your team, but if you came up against a Sydney forward line with Tippett, Buddy, Reid and Goodes would you consider going taller in Defence? I am not sure Lithers can handle any of them in the air.

 

[TheFourPillars]

I like your team, but if you came up against a Sydney forward line with Tippett, Buddy, Reid and Goodes would you consider going taller in Defence? I am not sure Lithers can handle any of them in the air.

Yep thats what i said earlier one would drop out for schoey or spangh i still reckon schoey will get the gig at this stage.

 

[Furn2]

Best 22 is a theoretical list used in preseason threads to pass the time. When do you ever actually have your best 22 players all available. We wont this year evne if we dont get another injury/suspension, because WhiteX is out.

With everyone fit Shoey maybe gets squeezed out depending on matchups but he's without doubt in our best 25-28 and is an vital part of our squad this year and even more so going forward. Without him we have a Cheney playing on Hawkins scenario. We most likely wouldnt have beaten the Swans or Crows without him and he'll be important this week up forward with Roughy out.