Is Shoey in our best 22?

[HawkintheTuarts]

Nope.

FB: Stratton, Lake, Suckling
HB: Birchall, Gibson, Hodge
C: Smith, Shiels, Hill
HF: Bruest, Gunston, Burgoyne
FF: Puopolo, Roughead, Hale
R: McEvoy, Mitchell, Lewis

I: Spangher, Rioli, Langford, Sewell

Litherland or Duryea to come in if need defenders, Ceglar if needed in the forward line.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

Why change your opinion in the year after a knee recon?

As I said, I can accept that he may be a yard slower this season but that should have been somewhat offset by an improvement in upper body strength allowing him to hold his position in the marking contest. The guy came back from pre-season looking like Tarzan. Sadly, he still plays like Jane though and is too easily outmuscled and out positioned for a guy of his size.

So, he is not strong enough to play on the big forwards and not mobile enough to play on the small or midsize guys. Nor is he a long term forward option for us given he doesn't displace anybody in our forward 50 on talent or output. So, what would you suggest we do with a guy who will be 24 at the start of next season and has played around 80 AFL games to date?

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

WTF!!!!

Watts is an utter spud.

Which doesn't say a lot for Schoenmakers now, does it?

 

[JoeHawk]

As I posted earlier we can't have Shoey play against the cats. They often look to pass to his opponent who has a better than 50/50 chance to beat him. Seen it way too often.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

Has Spangher? Or Suckling, Puopolo, Ceglar, Duryea, Litherland......... etc.

I'm a big Shoe fan - he is a solid player and I could name a 100 other highly rated KPP's that he is ahead of. He does seem to be missing a metre of pace at the moment though which would be my main concern, also lacking some agility. Maybe it is the first year back from the knee?

Go on then.

In fact, see if you can name 10 that are of similar age and experience who he is better than. And do it without your brown and gold glasses on.

 

[PenAndPaper]

Seriously?

Watts is twice the footballer that Schoenmakers is.

Well all your posts have just lost credibility with that post

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

WTF!!!!

Watts is an utter spud.

Career stats:

Disposals per game - Watts 15.8, Schoenmakers 12.8.
Marks per game - Watts 5.2, Schoenmakers 4.3.
Goals per game - Watts 0.8, Schoenmakers 0.2.
Tackles per game - Watts 1.9, Schoenmakers 2.3.

They are roughly the same age and Watts has played about 20 more games. Watts also plays in an inferior team and has to cope with more on-field attention and more media scrutiny due to being a top draft pick. Plus, Watts can play a number of roles with some success. Schoenmakers is rather more limited.

Now I know that stats are not everything but anybody that suggests that Jack Watts is an inferior player to Ryan Schoenmakers knows precisely nothing about football.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

Well all your posts have just lost credibility with that post

See above post.

 

[QuietB]

Go on then.

In fact, see if you can name 10 that are of similar age and experience who he is better than. And do it without your brown and gold glasses on.

Watts
Hurley (maybe)
Vickery
Lewis Johnson
Tom Lynch
Mitch Brown

All of the above were drafted before Schoenmakers in the 2008 draft.

Cordy
Jordan Roughead
Liam Jones
Rhys Stanley
Jordan Lisle

Above is just the 2008 draft. Do I need to go further? Gumbleton, Kruezer, Robbie Tarrant, Tony Notte, Tayte Pears, John Butcher, Ben Griffiths, yada yada yada

 

[QuietB]

Career stats:

Disposals per game - Watts 15.8, Schoenmakers 12.8.
Marks per game - Watts 5.2, Schoenmakers 4.3.
Goals per game - Watts 0.8, Schoenmakers 0.2.
Tackles per game - Watts 1.9, Schoenmakers 2.3.

They are roughly the same age and Watts has played about 20 more games. Watts also plays in an inferior team and has to cope with more on-field attention and more media scrutiny due to being a top draft pick. Plus, Watts can play a number of roles with some success. Schoenmakers is rather more limited.

Now I know that stats are not everything but anybody that suggests that Jack Watts is an inferior player to Ryan Schoenmakers knows precisely nothing about football.

What do you think Hawkins or Cloke would do to Watts?

Hint; there would likely be charges laid afterwards.

 

[Hawker55]

What do you think Hawkins or Cloke would do to Watts?

Hint; there would likely be charges laid afterwards.

But Watt's isn't a key defender??? He's played loose man a fair bit the last few years.


I reckon Hawkins would smash Buddy if he played on him - that doesn't make Buddy a worse player.
Also you seriously think Jordan Lisle is a better player than Schoenmakers?

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

What do you think Hawkins or Cloke would do to Watts?

Hint; there would likely be charges laid afterwards.

Sorry, just refresh my memory as to what Hawkins has done to Schoenmakers in the past.

And Schoenmakers is a key defender. Allegedly. He also has 10kg on Watts.

 

[Hawker55]

Exactly. So why are you comparing him to someone who isn't a key defender and rarely stands on key forwards? If you'd said Ben Reid (for example) you may have a point, but you're comparing him with someone who plays a completely different game and then using that as some sort of justification.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

Watts
Hurley (maybe)
Vickery
Lewis Johnson
Tom Lynch
Mitch Brown

All of the above were drafted before Schoenmakers in the 2008 draft.

Cordy
Jordan Roughead
Liam Jones
Rhys Stanley
Jordan Lisle

Above is just the 2008 draft. Do I need to go further? Gumbleton, Kruezer, Robbie Tarrant, Tony Notte, Tayte Pears, John Butcher, Ben Griffiths, yada yada yada

Hurley is significantly better.
As are Tom Lynch and Mitch Brown.

And you honestly think that he is better than Kreuzer (who is a ruckman by the way not a KPP)? God. And you are really clutching at straws listing Gumbleton who never had a fair run at it. Griffiths is better than Schoenmakers too. Roughead is certainly no worse. Nor is Jones.

Butcher is terrible as is Cordy. I will also concede Lisle and Stanley. So, congratulations on finding three or four of the AFL's biggest spuds to favourably compare Schoenmakers to. Well done.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

Exactly. So why are you comparing him to someone who isn't a key defender and rarely stands on key forwards? If you'd said Ben Reid (for example) you may have a point, but you're comparing him with someone who plays a completely different game and then using that as some sort of justification.

For starters, I wasn't the one that brought Jack Watts into the discussion.

I responded to a moron that stated that Schoenmakers is a better player than Watts.

Which is absolute and utter bullshit.

 

[PottSie2]

The best 22 going into the finals will vary.

Shoey is a good match for Tippet, but I think against Geelong, we'd be better off going with a Litherland to keep Motlop, Bartell, Stokes in check.

 

[Brishawk]

Sorry, just refresh my memory as to what Hawkins has done to Schoenmakers in the past.

And Schoenmakers is a key defender. Allegedly. He also has 10kg on Watts.

One time Hawkins kicked 6 against him. Next best is 3 goals. IS that really that bad that Hawkins kicked one bag on him ever? Shoey was 21 at the time . . . and last time they played on each other Shoey was the winner. Plenty of forwards towelled up Lake in his time include three times this year. KPD are a bit like Ruckman in that they are late developers. Go out and find me a 21 year old KPD that kept Cloke quite twice this year? Shoey did it in 2012.

 

[PenAndPaper]

One time Hawkins kicked 6 against him. Next best is 3 goals. IS that really that bad that Hawkins kicked one bag on him ever? Shoey was 21 at the time . . . and last time they played on each other Shoey was the winner. Plenty of forwards towelled up Lake in his time include three times this year. KPD are a bit like Ruckman in that they are late developers. Go out and find me a 21 year old KPD that kept Cloke quite twice this year? Shoey did it in 2012.

I already know the response, he will say 3 goals is a bag

 

[Randy Campbell]

As I said, I can accept that he may be a yard slower this season but that should have been somewhat offset by an improvement in upper body strength allowing him to hold his position in the marking contest. The guy came back from pre-season looking like Tarzan. Sadly, he still plays like Jane though and is too easily outmuscled and out positioned for a guy of his size.

So, he is not strong enough to play on the big forwards and not mobile enough to play on the small or midsize guys. Nor is he a long term forward option for us given he doesn't displace anybody in our forward 50 on talent or output. So, what would you suggest we do with a guy who will be 24 at the start of next season and has played around 80 AFL games to date?

Why do we have to do anything?
We do need more than just 22 players.

 

[QuietB]

But Watt's isn't a key defender??? He's played loose man a fair bit the last few years.


I reckon Hawkins would smash Buddy if he played on him - that doesn't make Buddy a worse player.
Also you seriously think Jordan Lisle is a better player than Schoenmakers?

Hence his possession numbers are better, and given his role Watts possession numbers are pretty pathetic.

I listed all of the above players as being equal at best, but most probably worse than Schoenmakers. And not a single one of them has been asked to hold down a key position spot in a side contending. If Schoenmakers had have been given the soft start to his careers that the others have been afforded then we would not even be discussing this.

Lets look at Hurley for example. I think we can all agree that this is his first consistent full year of footy. He has been shifted down back because he could not make it as a forward. So he got 4-5 years to develop, find his feet and to find his preferred position.

4-5 years ago Schoenmakers was standing Cloke in a preliminary final between going head to head with Hawkins.

And half the people on this board are still judging him on those performances.

 

[QuietB]

For starters, I wasn't the one that brought Jack Watts into the discussion.

I responded to a moron that stated that Schoenmakers is a better player than Watts.

Which is absolute and utter bullshit.

I hope you are kidding

 

[Hawker55]

\4-5 years ago Schoenmakers was standing Cloke in a preliminary final between going head to head with Hawkins. And half the people on this board are still judging him on those performances.

There's a fair bit of that. A lot of people don't really understand how team defence works as well - generally if your KPD is stuck in a lot of one on ones, the failure is happening well up the field. I don't think many coaches expect a defender to win every contest against a key forward when one out.

The fact the coaching staff back him in is enough for me really - shows he plays his role successfully most of the time. Having said that given Spangher is in form and Schoey's looked a bit off the last month, I don't really blame them for playing Spang over him.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

4-5 years ago Schoenmakers was standing Cloke in a preliminary final between going head to head with Hawkins.

And half the people on this board are still judging him on those performances.

What a self-serving load of nonsense.

I am judging him on right now and right now he is putrid.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

I already know the response, he will say 3 goals is a bag

Thanks for speaking for me.

*******.

 

[Brishawk]

What a self-serving load of nonsense.

I am judging him on right now and right now he is putrid.

I thought we established he wasn't that bad (although clearly looked slow when the ball was on the ground) and that plenty of worse players on the night including Frost whom everyone rates as awesome but actually looked completely lost against Roughy.