Is St Kilda in the firing line for relocation?

[LordLucifer]

One club spent 15 years at the bottom of the ladder the other won several flags, no surprise solid support grew. I mean their supporter base knows a flag will come inside a decade.

Watch what happens when that starts to not occur

This is exactly the reason why the Saints & Bulldogs are on a slippery slope, they have a long history in the game but have bugger-all to show for it. Fans can't talk about being at the XYZ Grand Final when "we came home in the last quarter & pinched another flag".

The sort of things that entice people to follow a club are it's rich history, the ongoing infield success, the premiership glories etc etc etc.

Without that backbone, what else do you have to sell the club on to prospective fans ??

"Come and have a look at our huge cabinet of spoons ??" just isn't going to cut it these days.

Success breeds success ............. there is no other way around it I'm afraid.

 

[LordLucifer]

The stupidity of this thread is that no team will be relocated unless they merge with an established non-Vic team. The cost of replacing any team is far more than what's gained.

So why did the AFL offer the Kangas that huge inducement to move to the Gold Coast ??

 

[walhawk]

That is not what the article says. It indicates were were offered the second best deal (to Essendon).

I remember at the time we were pretty much told we were moving to Etihad and were not inclined to fight city hall to keep Waverly or ignore the boss and work out a contract with the 'G. Our deal at Docklands is $2million worse off than an MCG tenant, but we didn't have a crystal ball and couldn't foresee our position at the Docklands would worsen considerably over the next dozen years.

Hawthorn must have been the only club with a crystal ball then.
So are you not admitting these mistakes could have been avoided?
Fighting the AFL in the 1990s cost us short term (with horrible draws and a bizarre decision to give North the draft pick before us one year despite us finishing below them), but long term you benefit.

 

[Riccardo11]

This is true but if you had decent administrators at the club back then things may have been better. Right now, you have ex-President Plympton sprouting that the club doesn't need to do anything different whilst new CEO Finnis is trying to reinvigorate & revamp the place, I know who I'd be listening to.

The Saints have struggled with good management over the journey and this has also contributed to the overall position they are in. The Bulldogs & Kangas haven't been much better in this regard and if we are being fair, the Demons should be thrown into that group as well.

In all organisations, you reap what you sow and the Saints have burnt themselves time & time again. A lot of their coaching appointments have been short-sighted and/or misguided, their ongoing ad-hoc approach to player discipline would test even the most ardent fan and the merry-go-round of training bases is confusing and destabilising.

All clubs have an inbuilt culture that pervades their boardroom & leadership group, it is extremely difficult to change this overnight as it has been built up over many generations.

The Saints are one of 3 or 4 Melbourne-based clubs who are continually walking a tightrope both on & off the field.

Whilst the passion shown by their fans in this thread is not only acknowledged, it is extremely admirable, the big question that keeps being asked is "how much longer do you want to keep banging your head against a brick wall"??

If my club was in this position, I'd be changing walls or getting a new head !!

You acknowledge in your very first paragraph we are changing the culture of the club, yet still go on to pot our historical record? To what purpose? Does it make you feel big to look down your nose at the "weak" clubs?

We are, as you clearly accept, changing the way we go about things off field for the better. That is all you needed to say.

 

[JeffDunne]

So why did the AFL offer the Kangas that huge inducement to move to the Gold Coast ??

Because they wanted a team on the Gold Coast.

They will encourage any team if they chose to move but which Vic supporter base is going to vote for that?

 

[flamingEMBERS]

The game is plenty strong enough. The AFL makes hundreds of millions of dollars in profit every year, and is universally seen as the most popular code in the country.

In my opinion, people outside of Victoria have no business commenting on the state of the clubs inside it. WA fans regularly assume they are the absolute be and and end all of the AFL and are the only ones making it profitable, and, as you have incorrectly stated, are solely "propping up" all the Victorian clubs that aren't Collingwood, Carlton or Essendon, and without the mighty Eagles and Dockers, all those clubs would just be dead. The obvious solution, in your minds, is to ignore the foundations the competition was built on and illegally exclude half a dozen "crap" teams from the competition, as only then will it (somehow) become more popular and profitable. The fans dispossessed by this will obviously just find someone else to support, they are only Victorians and therefore not loyal to their sides.

I can't begin to tell you how incorrect this is. Honestly, I don't even know where to start.

I have every right to comment on the state of the game. This is your problem you're pointing fingers at fans of WA clubs commenting on the state of football in Victoria when it is a national code. It is no longer a Victorian league. I have every right to comment and have a strong opinion on the state of my competition. Who's to say I don't live in Victoria.

I'm not ignoring the foundations of the league. If anything the opinion I have is strengthening it. Some of these clubs are just lucky there was never relegation around back in the day because far out averaging a wooden spoon 1 in every 4 years in the VFL is pretty pathetic. I guess we can thank the foundations for that.

Merging some of the Vic teams makes perfect sense. They become stronger. You get more packed out Docklands and MCG games, in fact nearly every game a docklands would be a sell out. The standard would go up as these pleb players wouldn't be getting a game. There wouldn't be a cap on football department spending as they would also have greater funds from membership and sponsorship to draw upon.

 

[Riccardo11]

Hawthorn must have been the only club with a crystal ball then.
So are you not admitting these mistakes could have been avoided?
Fighting the AFL in the 1990s cost us short term (with horrible draws and a bizarre decision to give North the draft pick before us one year despite us finishing below them), but long term you benefit.

I never said that the mistakes were unavoidable. Regrettable, poorly thought out, not managed properly, even partly explainable, but not unavoidable.

Yes, we all admit Hawthorn have done very well to use Tasmania, Waverly and smart management to rise to a huge power in the AFL. It is an example we can try to emulate in the future.

 

[Murraj1966]

I have every right to comment on the state of the game. This is your problem you're pointing fingers at fans of WA clubs commenting on the state of football in Victoria when it is a national code. It is no longer a Victorian league. I have every right to comment and have a strong opinion on the state of my competition. Who's to say I don't live in Victoria.

I'm not ignoring the foundations of the league. If anything the opinion I have is strengthening it. Some of these clubs are just lucky there was never relegation around back in the day because far out averaging a wooden spoon 1 in every 4 years in the VFL is pretty pathetic. I guess we can thank the foundations for that.

Merging some of the Vic teams makes perfect sense. They become stronger. You get more packed out Docklands and MCG games, in fact nearly every game a docklands would be a sell out. The standard would go up as these pleb players wouldn't be getting a game. There wouldn't be a cap on football department spending as they would also have greater funds from membership and sponsorship to draw upon.

I love how you work under the assumption every single fan from each merged team would support that new club. If St Kilda became the West Gate Bridge SaintDogs, I sure as s**t wouldn't be supporting them I'd become a Melbourne Victory member and maybe watch the AFL Finals on telly.

You merge teams you will lose more fans than you would retain.

 

[JeffDunne]

I'm not ignoring the foundations of the league. If anything the opinion I have is strengthening it. Some of these clubs are just lucky there was never relegation around back in the day because far out averaging a wooden spoon 1 in every 4 years in the VFL is pretty pathetic. I guess we can thank the foundations for that.

What relevance is there in results from a previous competition without equalisation measures?

St Kilda have shown over the past 20 years they can compete in this league. That's the only aspect relevant in this discussion.

 

[Riccardo11]

I have every right to comment on the state of the game. This is your problem you're pointing fingers at fans of WA clubs commenting on the state of football in Victoria when it is a national code. It is no longer a Victorian league. I have every right to comment and have a strong opinion on the state of my competition. Who's to say I don't live in Victoria.

I'm not ignoring the foundations of the league. If anything the opinion I have is strengthening it. Some of these clubs are just lucky there was never relegation around back in the day because far out averaging a wooden spoon 1 in every 4 years in the VFL is pretty pathetic. I guess we can thank the foundations for that.

Merging some of the Vic teams makes perfect sense. They become stronger. You get more packed out Docklands and MCG games, in fact nearly every game a docklands would be a sell out. The standard would go up as these pleb players wouldn't be getting a game. There wouldn't be a cap on football department spending as they would also have greater funds from membership and sponsorship to draw upon.

I'm "pointing fingers"? You are the one telling Vic clubs to merge or die for the betterment of the competition because you and you alone are paying the money that supposedly keeps us running.

My club may not be a financial powerhouse or hugely successful but we have earned our place in the competition and we do not deserve to be told to just go away because we need a bit of help. We have as much right to be in the league as any other side does.

I also strenuously disagree that forced merging of Melbourne cubs would create the utopian paradise you predict. It is a proven fact many fans of merged entities across several codes are lost to the game all together, it's not as simple as all the fans of both sides just barracking for the new team, and it's rather naive to suggest so.

 

[Riccardo11]

This is exactly the reason why the Saints & Bulldogs are on a slippery slope, they have a long history in the game but have bugger-all to show for it. Fans can't talk about being at the XYZ Grand Final when "we came home in the last quarter & pinched another flag".

The sort of things that entice people to follow a club are it's rich history, the ongoing infield success, the premiership glories etc etc etc.

Without that backbone, what else do you have to sell the club on to prospective fans ??

"Come and have a look at our huge cabinet of spoons ??" just isn't going to cut it these days.

Success breeds success ............. there is no other way around it I'm afraid.

Success is only one very small factor of why people support a club. I'd love a bit more success, but our supporters, as with those of the Bulldogs, North and Demons, aren't so shallow that they are just in it for the Flags.

 

[Falchoon]

This is exactly the reason why the Saints & Bulldogs are on a slippery slope, they have a long history in the game but have bugger-all to show for it. Fans can't talk about being at the XYZ Grand Final when "we came home in the last quarter & pinched another flag".

The sort of things that entice people to follow a club are it's rich history, the ongoing infield success, the premiership glories etc etc etc.

Without that backbone, what else do you have to sell the club on to prospective fans ??

"Come and have a look at our huge cabinet of spoons ??" just isn't going to cut it these days.

Success breeds success ............. there is no other way around it I'm afraid.

Success brings delusion would best describe those who jumped on the blue bandwagon.

 

[#gosaintas]

Success brings delusion would best describe those who jumped on the blue bandwagon.

Look what happened to the band wagon hawks supporters - a couple of lean years and they were desperate to merge - hope Don Scott is still healthy!

 

[cammo78]

This is exactly the reason why the Saints & Bulldogs are on a slippery slope, they have a long history in the game but have bugger-all to show for it. Fans can't talk about being at the XYZ Grand Final when "we came home in the last quarter & pinched another flag".

The sort of things that entice people to follow a club are it's rich history, the ongoing infield success, the premiership glories etc etc etc.

Without that backbone, what else do you have to sell the club on to prospective fans ??

"Come and have a look at our huge cabinet of spoons ??" just isn't going to cut it these days.

Success breeds success ............. there is no other way around it I'm afraid.

Success breeds success, does it?

Let's be abundantly clear - Carlton are the worst-performed club this century, GWS and GC aside. That includes Melbourne, so you begin to get the picture.

You were also on the bones of your arse and about to fold a few short years ago - cap in hand to the AFL for a loan (has it been paid back)?

So please, spare us all your delusions of grandeur, as your club has done two fifths of * all since the AFL removed the ability to buy flags, then threw the book at you for cheating when your "entitled to success" cesspit wouldn't accept it.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

For starters that would be increasing the number of clubs so thats silly as the standard would drop as we have seen in the last few years.

So you're telling me that the TV deal is worth all of its millions because of North, Bulldogs & Melbourne? How many free to air games do these clubs actually get. I bet it would be zero if channel 7 had its way.

You're not very smart. The papers are saying that the next tv deal is going to be worth $2bn to the AFL over 5 years. Spending 12m a year on keeping 4 clubs alive to help generate 400m a year in tv revenue is smart business. Tv rights are based on games played so there will be further expansion in the future. As for the broadcast, Channel 7 tender for the rights and agree to a fixture with ch7. If they had their way, there would be less west coke games on tv given the majority of supporters and the tv audiences are from vic.

 

[KillaKanga]

For starters that would be increasing the number of clubs so thats silly as the standard would drop as we have seen in the last few years.

So you're telling me that the TV deal is worth all of its millions because of North, Bulldogs & Melbourne? How many free to air games do these clubs actually get. I bet it would be zero if channel 7 had its way.

North Melbourne have actually had some very highly rated/viewed games in the last few years. Most supporters would prefer to watch North than the Eagles atm.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

Lol at a Carlolton supporter telling other clubs supporters about their teams poor history and culture.

 

[Rob]

North Melbourne have actually had some very highly rated/viewed games in the last few years. Most supporters would prefer to watch North than the Eagles atm.

Rubbish. North were in the 4 lowest rating Friday night games last year and 5 of the worst 6.

 

[roosmad]

Dont start on the giants and i wont start on the kangas.

Happy to start mate, you will always be a franchise FACT.....

 

[Ricmel]

Rubbish. North were in the 4 lowest rating Friday night games last year and 5 of the worst 6.

The sort of things that entice people to follow a club are it's rich history, the ongoing infield success, the premiership glories etc etc etc.

Without that backbone, what else do you have to sell the club on to prospective fans ??

"Come and have a look at our huge cabinet of spoons ??" .

Too many people here confuse membership with supporter base. The Saints have a huge latent supporter base and the AFL knows this. In the last official survey in 2011, Saints supporter numbers were ahead of both Howthorn and Richmond. In fact in that survey Saints supporter numbers were 8th on the table (Carlton's were 6th).

If it is all about flags and only flags, saints supporter numbers should be closer to last.

Our supporter growth since 2001 has been 15% compared to Richmonds -2.7% and Blues -4.3%. Supporters may not take up memberships and Saints have been poor in that facet but they do watch TV and that is where the money is.

 

[flamingEMBERS]

I'm "pointing fingers"? You are the one telling Vic clubs to merge or die for the betterment of the competition because you and you alone are paying the money that supposedly keeps us running.

My club may not be a financial powerhouse or hugely successful but we have earned our place in the competition and we do not deserve to be told to just go away because we need a bit of help. We have as much right to be in the league as any other side does.

I also strenuously disagree that forced merging of Melbourne cubs would create the utopian paradise you predict. It is a proven fact many fans of merged entities across several codes are lost to the game all together, it's not as simple as all the fans of both sides just barracking for the new team, and it's rather naive to suggest so.

1 State League Premiership in 100+ years and an average of a wooden spoon per 4 years in the VFL = your club hasn't earned the right to be in this league.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Happy to start mate, you will always be a franchise FACT.....

You do realise that North Melbourne is also a franchise

The definition of franchise in a sporting context is the right of membership to a professional sporting organisation

Granted you may not have paid your membership dues for 20 years, but that definition applies to your mob as much as it does gws

Oh, and THAT is a fact

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Too many people here confuse membership with supporter base. The Saints have a huge latent supporter base and the AFL knows this. In the last official survey in 2011, Saints supporter numbers were ahead of both Howthorn and Richmond. In fact in that survey Saints supporter numbers were 8th on the table (Carlton's were 6th).

If it is all about flags and only flags, saints supporter numbers should be closer to last.

Our supporter growth since 2001 has been 15% compared to Richmonds -2.7% and Blues -4.3%. Supporters may not take up memberships and Saints have been poor in that facet but they do watch TV and that is where the money is.

Those surveys are crap. They ask "who do you support" and even if you only have a passing interest in the sport, you count as a supporter

It's why the swans top it every year, they are in a big city

Show me one metric involving participation that indicates the strength of this secret invisible magically hidden supporter base

Attendance?
Membership?
Merchandise?
Auskick?
TV audience?

Hell even Facebook and twitter

 

[KillaKanga]

Rubbish. North were in the 4 lowest rating Friday night games last year and 5 of the worst 6.

Where do you get your numbers?

Not counting Finals obviously

 

[Riccardo11]

1 State League Premiership in 100+ years and an average of a wooden spoon per 4 years in the VFL = your club hasn't earned the right to be in this league.

Results alone do not determine whether a club deserves to continue it's existence.

We helped start the VFL, and have been a contributor to almost every season since 1897, barring a few war interrupted years. While we have limited on field success, it is overly simplistic to base this clubs worth or any other on this fact.

The Saints have a long history hosted numerous star players with high individual accolades, have had our fair share of large matches and are supported by a large and passionate fan base. Turfing the Saints would rob the competition of a club that has the will to survive long droughts of success and incidents that would destroy a club made of less stern stuff. When we are flying we pack them in like nobody else, and the diehards still turn up when we don't. Passion cannot be bought or invented in a boardroom, and that is one thing we have an excess supply of. The competition would be poorer for us not being in it.