Israel declares war on Hamas - Gaza invasion likely

[Mani]

my point I was attempting to make was politics corrupts. And there is innate phenomena to trend to demagogy.

I am not sure about that - its people that corrupt themselves - they choose to compromise their principles (if they had any before entering politics) for whatever reasons (fear, personal gain, power, ego etc)

politics corrupts??? Politics = people

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

I think another problem i have with the israel can do no wrongers.. is just cos people like to support people who have been bashed smashed and stolen from theyre labelled "racists".. weve seen this numerous times on this thread...
Just as they like Palestinians to be unarmed when they shoot them.. they also want them to have no support/ supporters.

just pathetic

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

This is actually a very good point. And a good question. But, really, isn't it a question you should be asking of the... ahem... "anti-zionists" on this board?

Because, as far as I can see, there's nothing in the way of constructive compromise offered by the usual suspects. In fact it's the complete opposite. What on earth is constructive about insisting Israel is an illegitmate apartheid state who should accept a one-state solution where Hamas, whose Covenant insists that muslims will fight an end time war against all Jews, would weild majority political power?

I mean this is nonsensical. It's not going to happen. the very least that would need to happen first is for Hamas to change its Covenant and they flatly refuse to do so. Yet so many so-called "anti-zionists" on here don't even accept that Hamas should change it's constitutional belief that jews are an enemy to be killed. Not just jews in Israel - all jews.

But it's a good question and I'll try and answer it for myself:

I'd ask that Hamas change it's Covenant. Accept the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state. Once that is agreed, Israel should immediatley leave the West bank, including any and all settlements built since 1967.

There would have to be a negotiated a fair compromise on the Right of Return: safeguarding Israel's staus as a majority Jewish Sate for the time being there would have to be a system of freedom of labour and freedom of movement allowing those refugees the opportunity to work in Israel where economic opportunity is clearly higher.

That might just make a start...

Being an anti-Zionist myself I agree with most of what you say about Hamas and its Covenant. If Hamas wants to be a credible political force it MUST abandon the 'jews are an enemy to be killed' aspects of its Charter. Even if it says it dosen't adhere to its original Charter any more it MUST make these changes concrete.

Any one-state solution MUST have freedom of religion, yet must aso be secular and democratic in nature. Universal human rights must be observed, from the majority right down to the smallest minority. No Jewish State should be recognised. No Islamic State should be recognised. No Christian State should be recognised.

All should be equal under Law, with no one religion or people held higher than any other.

 

[Mani]

Are 'Jews' even a race?

More a religion I would have thought.

Technically Jewishness simply relates to someone following the Judaic faith (ie the Torah or Old Testament) therefore its a religion, like Christianity or Islamism.

As are races are concerned, Geneticists cannot distinguish so called human races with any known genetic markers. In other words race is a socio-political or demographic construction, not a genetic or biological class.

I am afraid there is only one Human species

So I suppose, I a Jew were to become an atheist then they are no longer Jews - it would be like calling someone an Atheist Christian

 

[Mani]

Being an anti-Zionist myself .

Anti-Zionism is a noble cause, fighting fascism and evil is always noble.

 

[ArjenTheGreat]

Being an anti-Zionist myself I agree with most of what you say about Hamas and its Covenant. If Hamas wants to be a credible political force it MUST abandon the 'jews are an enemy to be killed' aspects of its Charter. Even if it says it dosen't adhere to its original Charter any more it MUST make these changes concrete.

Any one-state solution MUST have freedom of religion, yet must aso be secular and democratic in nature. Universal human rights must be observed, from the majority right down to the smallest minority. No Jewish State should be recognised. No Islamic State should be recognised. No Christian State should be recognised.

All should be equal under Law, with no one religion or people held higher than any other.

Lol you don't believe in the one place that all religions coexist peacefully.

Pure gold.

 

[ArjenTheGreat]

Anti-Zionism is a noble cause, fighting fascism and evil is always noble.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

If only you had something to steal, we could call killing a few human shields a holocaust, I'm sure the bbc will only be too happy show the world how hard done by the Palestinians have been for eternity.

Go to uni, get a job, prosper V. Hate, blame, whinge, poor me

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

If only you had something to steal, we could call killing a few human shields a holocaust, I'm sure the bbc will only be too happy show the world how hard done by the Palestinians have been for eternity.

Go to uni, get a job, prosper V. Hate, blame, whinge, poor me

You are unimportant.....

it doesnt matter what you think.... lies and racism have no longevity.

ultimately the area will take care of itself.

either the israelis learn to co exist in the area.. or they wont be around.

1000 years will make sure that is what it is...

The fictional old testament wont change that

 

[Monniehawk]

What, exactly was I supposed to respond to in that ridiculous rant?

People ranting about jewsis not exactly good dinner table conversation. Look, here's an exercise for you: pretend you were me and try and fashion a response to Heatly? I'd be fascinated to see it.

Why reply at all? If you are convinced it is rubbish, why add to the pile of dross?
Most posters are trying to make sapient points, without falling into acrimonious point scoring. (Maybe that is just the nature of BF.)
Ranting against either group is just blind fanboyism.

Also, could you ask Heatly why he keeps banging on about me and the Talmud? I'm not jewish, although Heatly's so obsessed he doesn't seem to care in his bizarre rants.

Ask him yourself.
Being Jewish is not a qualification for being pro Israel. Being against Israeli policy and actions is not the criteria for being anti-Semite. Many posters disagree with the Israeli policies in the Middle East (including a significant amount of Israels' and Jews) but can do so without being racist, bigoted or even prejudiced. A lot of posters can divorce the action from the persons.
Likewise, outlining the Arab case is not necessarily anti-Semite. A lot of us are concerned at the alarming death toll, and Israel's expansionism. Including many Jews.

Your posts reflect less of an empathy for Israel than a dark and irrational animosity to all things Muslim, imho.
Bizarre rants have come thick and fast in this thread. You have contributed more than your share.
Why bleat when you attack others?

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Lol you don't believe in the one place that all religions coexist peacefully.

Pure gold.

But they don't co-exist peacefully. One religion is held in higher regard than all the others. This is wrong. Flat out WRONG. I'd say the same thing to a supporter of the theocracy that runs Iran. No Jewish State should exist anywhere. No Islamic State should exist anywhere. No Christian State should exist anywhere. No Buddhist State should exist anywhere.

Equality for all with no place in politics for gods or prophets of any stripe. That should be the ideal nation, and we should strive to make it so in areas of conflict throughout the world. Feel free to disagree, but these are my beliefs.

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

Hawkforce you dont have to be jewish to be a zionist racist fascist anti islam kind of guy....

You could be some kind of evangelical so called christian...

or you can be a flat out racist....
or your father was jewish but not your mother.....

either way... suck it up !!!.. you are just a racist.... and you dont mind having palestinians die.. and you never read herodotus.. only whatever it was you were allowed to read

 

[blackcat]

I am not sure about that - its people that corrupt themselves - they choose to compromise their principles (if they had any before entering politics) for whatever reasons (fear, personal gain, power, ego etc)

politics corrupts??? Politics = people

I have made this point on Gillard. What are who true values. And Obama, what are values when they are fluid?

sort of contradicts the definition.

well, politicians tend to be shapeshifters eh...

 

[blackcat]

Actually Israel has been set up by Rothschilds.
The main street is named after him.

And American senate bows to his owning the Fed.

Its how they have the USA by the short and curlies.

By the way Hawkforce... did you read Herodotus' multiple references to Palestine and Palestinians yet??
Or will you still tel anybody that cares to listen itss just wiki crap??

Remember... 2500 years ago.. and not a single reference to Judea and Jews.. and he did visit the are himself.

Just weird...!!!

SSo theyre not invented people are they?
Or just generic Arabs... like you keep refering to them.

need to edit the last line so you are not misinterpreted THS. And leave out the references to Rothschilds and Soros because it gets wacky, unless there is some proof of mendacity and nefarious motive, it reflects on your posts that they are not made in good faith.

 

[blackcat]

Hawkforce you dont have to be jewish to be a zionist racist fascist anti islam kind of guy....

You could be some kind of evangelical so called christian...

or you can be a flat out racist....
or your father was jewish but not your mother.....

either way... suck it up !!!.. you are just a racist.... and you dont mind having palestinians die.. and you never read herodotus.. only whatever it was you were allowed to read

you know what the Christians said in the Crusades when they were slaughtering muslims and jews?

for the Glory of God

(christian god)

 

[blackcat]

Why reply at all? If you are convinced it is rubbish, why add to the pile of dross?
Most posters are trying to make sapient points, without falling into acrimonious point scoring. (Maybe that is just the nature of BF.)

filed away under the generic hird v voss v buckley tribal trope

 

[blackcat]

Lol you don't believe in the one place that all religions coexist peacefully.

Pure gold.

is not this defeatist and question begging?

NYC the melting pot is successful now, tho it has been about a century for the african americans and other religions to meet face to face, and the orthodox guy getting it (the Sydney man) over a decade ago. And if you are walking about the Melbourne SBD anyday now, it feels like we are an Asian city with all nationalities ( a big fu to Pauline Hanson).

If you think we cannot live together peacefully, perhaps you are bringing the incorrect mindset. I know there is the salient qualifier, religions. But, why cannot ALL religions live together in a secular state. Why cannot they be successful, or the city? And even the immigrant and religious quarters. I hear Dandenong is a great place to sample immigrant food for nigh on nix coin. Beats the hipster dens of the masterchef type clique/century of self.

Perhaps, it is extremely difficult, for nations founded as ethno-religious states. And perhaps it is difficult, for ethno states like japan who are very insular and have strict immigrant/refugee quota/requirements. But Japan with its aging population, is facing reality, that you have to open out to the world, and not be inward and insular. This is an irony with their love of all things western pop culture.

 

[Monniehawk]

Lol you don't believe in the one place that all religions coexist peacefully.
Pure gold.

Not sure if that was an answer....
Are you suggesting religious apartheid?

You should visit some monocultural communities. They still fight like hell.

 

[Mani]

well, politicians tend to be shapeshifters eh...

It appears so.

Perhaps its not politics per say, but rather our parliamentary and party system which has been purchased by the corporations and elite Plutocrats.

I cant remember when the last so called conscience vote was allowed in parliament

Shouldn't ALL votes cast by our democratically elected representatives be based upon their conscience or principles?

You will find conscience votes taken in the houses of parliament on trivial issues such as gay marriage and yet no such conscience vote is allowed for going to war, or privatising an essential service

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

Technically Jewishness simply relates to someone following the Judaic faith (ie the Torah or Old Testament) therefore its a religion, like Christianity or Islamism.

As are races are concerned, Geneticists cannot distinguish so called human races with any known genetic markers. In other words race is a socio-political or demographic construction, not a genetic or biological class.

I am afraid there is only one Human species

So I suppose, I a Jew were to become an atheist then they are no longer Jews - it would be like calling someone an Atheist Christian

The question is ...did Freud and Marx circumcise their sons?

 

[Mani]

The question is ...did Freud and Marx circumcise their sons?

....are you strictly coupling the act of circumcising baby boys with the religious devotion to Judaism?

Are you saying that circumcision is a religious ceremony for Those of Jewish faith?


Circumcision of newly born baby boys seems to fit the legal felony called "child abuse" or assault.


Charges should be laid against the parents, doctors or rabbis involved in this barbaric form of cruelty

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

I am saying that the religious aspect is one side of judaism.
The other side is cultural. Even if they do not believe in G-D and denounce hs very existence... Im curious if they still parkeep the ritualism that allows them to subliminally believe they are somehow special.
I mean Freud belived and taught the world for many years.. that every thought is about sex....
Im not sure what people know about Khazars ... but before converting to judaism they worshipped sex and phallic idols..
As for blackcat telling me i shouldnt tie in the Rothschilds family in with Israel... the ties are very deep.
Tributes to them are everywhere in Israel as Hawkpower or whatever his name having been to Israel and wailed on the wall can atest to

What is never ever mentioned in the mainstream press is how much money does the House of Rothschild have.
I find it astounding theyre not in the richest 1000 list.

Conspiracy number 1 ... if you can get all the worlds major media to not talk about you or your money and power...youre pretty powerful ... its a conspiracy in itself.. and its not a theory.

Youd think they don't exist... and yet if you understand history... you know they loom very large and you know how they create money and weild power.

You also know the name is everywhere in Israel...plaques.. streets.... the silent hand.

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

As for circumcision i fail to see how a religious group can think God is all mighty but he doesnt know how to design a penis and that man can improve upon it with a pair of scissors.
that one beats me.. and yeah i agree on the barbaric side of it.
Both Muslims and Jews are very similar.. both Halal/Kosher both use the scissors or the knife or whatever... both are infuenced by "an eye for an eye "... and both have claims to the same area...both have some very unusual rituals... Kaparot



and



Yes muslims are suppose to be in a cultural darkness.

Again most people wouldnt know about those kinds of images.. but we all think Seinfeld is pretty funny.

Palestinians and Jews should find common ground...
But Israel must stop beating up on the Palestinians and pretending they are "the fabricated people"
and somewhat inferior and uncivilised... and that Israel and Judaism is some kind of beacon for democracy and goodness... blah blah blah...

 

[Hawkforce]

Poor Blackcat, every time he tries to reign in their racism, Mani and Heatly take it to a whole new level...

Amusing but also quite disturbing...

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

Poor Blackcat, every time he tries to reign in their racism, Mani and Heatly take it to a whole new level...

Amusing but also quite disturbing...

Oh so after calling upon the legitimacy of a Palestinian state.. and talking about a jewish state ... others are racists.....

All thats been pointed out.. is the historical aspect of the conflict...Herodotus etc...(ON RECORD) before anything that talks about an Israel on historical record...
The hypocricy of your argument making claims against the Palestinians human shields and terrorism etc...
And your racism slanted at islam....
And the money being bankrolled into the Zionist Jewish state
when you suddenly lack answers and arguments

you are now pulling out your ' Big Bertha'...(the race card)...

How typical!!!

Like i said.. Israel is founded on lies and hypocricy...

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

is not this defeatist and question begging?

NYC the melting pot is successful now, tho it has been about a century for the african americans and other religions to meet face to face, and the orthodox guy getting it (the Sydney man) over a decade ago. And if you are walking about the Melbourne SBD anyday now, it feels like we are an Asian city with all nationalities ( a big fu to Pauline Hanson).

If you think we cannot live together peacefully, perhaps you are bringing the incorrect mindset. I know there is the salient qualifier, religions. But, why cannot ALL religions live together in a secular state. Why cannot they be successful, or the city? And even the immigrant and religious quarters. I hear Dandenong is a great place to sample immigrant food for nigh on nix coin. Beats the hipster dens of the masterchef type clique/century of self.

Perhaps, it is extremely difficult, for nations founded as ethno-religious states. And perhaps it is difficult, for ethno states like japan who are very insular and have strict immigrant/refugee quota/requirements. But Japan with its aging population, is facing reality, that you have to open out to the world, and not be inward and insular. This is an irony with their love of all things western pop culture.

This.