List Mgmt. It's time for a rebuild

[pebblestone]

His kicking was putrid.

It has been all season. I loved him but he coughs it up with monotonous regularity.

 

[Dr Awkward]

Far too many ordinary players getting a game for us at the moment.

Did Hardwick really think that bringing in McDonough, Drummond and Arnot in the same week, when we already have a lot of young players and inexperience, was going to work? I know Petterd, Foley, Grimes, Lennon are not setting the world on fire but they would have been much better prepared to contribute.

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

Far too many ordinary players getting a game for us at the moment.

Did Hardwick really think that bringing in McDonough, Drummond and Arnot in the same week, when we already have a lot of young players and inexperience, was going to work? I know Petterd, Foley, Grimes, Lennon are not setting the world on fire but they would have been much better prepared to contribute.

Pettard and grimes are injured , whilst biscuit had played more games than Lennon so not sure what you are on but it's ******* with your brain .

 

[Nallad]

Dimma lol

 

[Blueyboy74]

I was as disgusted as the next bloke with the crap we dished up last night but it is worth pointing out the Demons actually had a more experienced team on the park:

Average Age

Melb: 24yr 9mth
Rich: 24yr 3 mth

Ave Games

Melb: 80.9
Rich: 66.5

 

[TigerImposter]

Please no more excuses with the kids
Brayshaw for one laid more EFFECTIVE tackles than our whole team
This loss was not about youth it's about coaches developing youth and harnessing talent
Our coaches cannot even drum the basics into our players. Watch Brandon Ellis who I'm a big supporter of. He just panics and melts with his decision making. No discipline acts and can't tackle , but would be a star under Roos Lyon Clarko SKH etc
A coach builds and reforms a team starting with youth as you can't teach old dogs new tricks
This is why I finally understand after all these years why my old man had a dog put down bc he was killing chooks and wouldn't stop it
DH hasn't done this he has actually added more bad dogs

 

[Blueyboy74]

I agree with you Imposter ... our tackling, intent, dare & lack of physicality is a major issue. I'm just pointing out that we weren't exactly fried by a bunch of kids.

 

[tigerz18]

Our midfielders are still our issue. Our KPF and KPB are very, very good, but when you are having 40 odd inside 50s and take 0 marks inside 50 in the second half, then there is an issue with ball delivery.
our mids are just veryvery poor at putting the ball to advantage and giving Jack/Griff the chance to take marks. on a dry day, yes, Griff and Jack will take pack marks and jumping marks, so we can kick the ball in, but if you try that in the rain, like last night, it fails. So that means our mids are not smart enough to change their delivery.

Hence, they need to go. Very, Very poor midfield, and it has been getting steadily worse over the last couple years.
We need an 2-3 ollie wines/Selwood/Hodge type players. but we seem to be getting outside players only these days.

oh and stop getting rejects. if we get players from other teams, its their better ones. and no more VFL players. thety are not good enough

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

We are to small , the midfielders we have taken in recent drafts are to small . Drummond , Vlaustin , Ellis , Conca , maddona , Lloyd are all to small . Add this to our adding if the list with hunt , Miles , Arnott and there is far to many of the same type.
We have one bloke who is around the 190 mark who can run and he is extremely outside . As a result of our lack of midfield size , whenever we win the contested footy we go backwards and rely to heavily on run from behind the contest and setting up from defence . We do play a similar style to hawthorn issue is they have bigger blokes like hodge and even barge arsed Mitchell who allow them to go sidewards or through the contest so they are not as predictable . Shane Edwards is a gem because he is able to go through traffic and defy's what every other richmond player does at clearances and goes forward .
Push hard at us at contests and lock down on our half backs and you have us beat .
We miss Jackson and there isn't a replacement sitting in the wings or even developing .

 

[Cevap_Roll]

We are to small , the midfielders we have taken in recent drafts are to small . Drummond , Vlaustin , Ellis , Conca , maddona , Lloyd are all to small . Add this to our adding if the list with hunt , Miles , Arnott and there is far to many of the same type.
We have one bloke who is around the 190 mark who can run and he is extremely outside . As a result of our lack of midfield size , whenever we win the contested footy we go backwards and rely to heavily on run from behind the contest and setting up from defence . We do play a similar style to hawthorn issue is they have bigger blokes like hodge and even barge arsed Mitchell who allow them to go sidewards or through the contest so they are not as predictable . Shane Edwards is a gem because he is able to go through traffic and defy's what every other richmond player does at clearances and goes forward .
Push hard at us at contests and lock down on our half backs and you have us beat .
We miss Jackson and there isn't a replacement sitting in the wings or even developing .

100% spot on.
Fyfe Barlow Mundy and Hill all tall.
I saw our size a real issue in the wet.

 

[Lsta062]

I actually wouldn't mind going into a full rebuild. If we are going to lose to Bulldogs and Melbourne anyways, we may as well have a legit reason for it.

Besides, drafts are no longer compromised now and we could set ourselves up for the future that way with a new coach at the helm. I don't see much ups from the current list we have to be honest, and the longer we take to admit that this group isn't winning anything, the longer we will stay mediocre.

I am not saying this out of anger or whatever. I just don't rate the current list we have. The last time I really rated them and saw an upside to them was 2012. Just want to see different faces in the yellow and black jumper and hope they will finally bring success.

Unless the coaching department is the problem. Then, the coaching department needs a clean out. All I know is something has to drastically change if the club wants to actually challenge

 

[TheProwler]

I was as disgusted as the next bloke with the crap we dished up last night but it is worth pointing out the Demons actually had a more experienced team on the park:

Average Age

Melb: 24yr 9mth
Rich: 24yr 3 mth

Ave Games

Melb: 80.9
Rich: 66.5

Big deal it was our experienced that turned in another shocker not the inexperienced kids

 

[Bruce Monteath]

If it's time for a rebuild, and I hope it is not, it needs to start at the top.

 

[TheProwler]

We don't need a rebuild we need to keep building on what we have and developing those we have picked in recent years. Our biggest problem is we have recruited too many guys that are good kickers but we then give them a game plan that revolves around hand passing In hind sight we should have perhaps drafted kids that are elite at hand passing rather than kicking

We don't have many line breakers instead we have too many similar skilled players and a game style not suited to their ability.

 

[aussiebob14]

Full rebuild = No.
I'm sick of hearing people saying "we need to rebuild, it's the only option". The good clubs didn't come off such a low base like we had. We just need to keep building depth by picking young guys & only trading if we can guarantee it will plug a gap without holding back the development of a talented young kid(if the kid is a battler with no talent we don't need them, I love these kinds of players,but a team full of them won't take us to a premiership).

If anything our list is just a little clogged at the moment & is holding back the development of a few of the more talented kids, but for some reason we've only wanted to "hard-ball winners" who don't even do that, and are too slow.

 

[Mr Magic]

We don't need a rebuild we need to keep building on what we have and developing those we have picked in recent years. Our biggest problem is we have recruited too many guys that are good kickers but we then give them a game plan that revolves around hand passing In hind sight we should have perhaps drafted kids that are elite at hand passing rather than kicking

We don't have many line breakers instead we have too many similar skilled players and a game style not suited to their ability.

I agree we do not need a full rebuild.

I also agree we need a bit more class and height in the guts.

Thats why we should target Shiel longer term and Bartel short term with the idea Bartel can guide us longer term hopefully in an assistant coaching capacity.

Arnot made a hell of a difference with his physical power early but later it seemed a bit evident lacked a little pace. Still he showed a bit. Arnot can improve but it is an example of the lack of players with a full set of quality aspects in their game to carry us forward. Many are good in some areas but lack in others and are not fully well rounded which causes us problems.

I think the wet did not help us in the second half mind you and some of our players prefer the dry is my impression which highlights a lack of class/skill in some areas.

Having said that Melbourne have some class coming through. It is alright to bag the fact Bradshaw got such and such contested tackles but he is a very high draft pick with a powerful size and has showed a lot in the first few weeks. Like Hogan it is no surprise to me along with Garlett and Bradshaw etc.. they are making an impression!

I do not think our list is a mess. It just lacks in certain areas like height in the guts and we just need a bit more quality around the traps.

Drummond was unfortunate. I put that down to inexperience, he would have been wiser taking his feet away when coming away from his jump like Griffiths for his high mark to protect his legs or even twist his body when leaping for the ball against his opponent so he does not land so awkwardly.

I think we have the building blocks. We just need more quality through out the team and less top up players IMO!

 

[Mr Magic]

Full rebuild = No.
I'm sick of hearing people saying "we need to rebuild, it's the only option". The good clubs didn't come off such a low base like we had. We just need to keep building depth by picking young guys & only trading if we can guarantee it will plug a gap without holding back the development of a talented young kid(if the kid is a battler with no talent we don't need them, I love these kinds of players,but a team full of them won't take us to a premiership).

If anything our list is just a little clogged at the moment & is holding back the development of a few of the more talented kids, but for some reason we've only wanted to "hard-ball winners" who don't even do that, and are too slow.

Agree except depth is not our problem, quality in some areas is our problem IMO

 

[aussiebob14]

Agree except depth is not our problem, quality in some areas is our problem IMO

I just think the best way of developing players is by easing them in rather than just throwing them in and getting belted, and the way that the best teams have done that is by building depth. Unfortunately we've tried to do it with excellent VFL players who just aren't cut out for afl & are now holding back our young guys.

A few of those VFL type players are good to keep the young guys on their toes, but we just have too many of them on the list.

On a another note, slightly off topic, we should be developing Ty in the ruck, he's so much more confident when he plays around the ground

 

[Mr Magic]

I just think the best way of developing players is by easing them in rather than just throwing them in and getting belted, and the way that the best teams have done that is by building depth. Unfortunately we've tried to do it with excellent VFL players who just aren't cut out for afl & are now holding back our young guys.

A few of those VFL type players are good to keep the young guys on their toes, but we just have too many of them on the list.

On a another note, slightly off topic, we should be developing Ty in the ruck, he's so much more confident when he plays around the ground

Yeah its hard. Hawthorn in the eighties was a different time with zones, 12 team comp and they were loaded with talent.

Its a fine balance. Arnot went okay particularly early last night whereas Drummond was an example probably too early for him. In hindsight you would think better off putting in Lennon instead of Drummond.

I don't mind putting the kids in if they have class like Heeney and/or a bit of physical shape/robustness to them.

Drummond, like McBean previously was probably not quite ready. Having said that I do not think Drummond was totally out of his depth. It was unfortunate and a bit unlucky with Drummond but I do not think this is a cause for not giving the kids a go when physically and mentally ready enough to have an impact like a Heeney even in good teams like the Swans. Put it this way, in my DT and Fantasy leagues Newton will be leaving from the Dees before Bradshaw even though Bradshaw has been a substitute risk!


Final point are we not developing Ty in the ruck now abeit VFL level? If not, OMG, why the f... not????

 

[bigstyletiger]

We don't need a rebuild but we do need more talent. In particular we need a big bullocking classy mid, a decent small forward who can replace the absolutely useless Lloyd, and another running back. It's a pity as improvement this season may have seen us attract a quality free agent and put us in a position for Shiel to nominate us. Add two quality players to our midfield and we'll improve out of sight. As it is though we are more in line for a top 8 pick now and potentially losing a player or two out the door. Could be a mini rebuild without a choice.

The one positive is though is that yesterday in the wet did teach us a lot about our side, what we need, and who should never pull on the jumper again.

 

[Mr Magic]

We don't need a rebuild but we do need more talent. In particular we need a big bullocking classy mid, a decent small forward who can replace the absolutely useless Lloyd, and another running back.

Edward replaces Lloyd when we bring in Shiel and Bartel

 

[bigstyletiger]

Edward replaces Lloyd when we bring in Shiel and Bartel

Magic Bartel is not and shouldn't come over to us. Shiel yes. Edwards however is starting to prove himself as a genuine mid. He could be our best clearance player ATM but even with him in the forward line we need another. Gordon should go. Too soft. Morris. No footballing intelligence or ability to damage offensively.

 

[Mr Magic]

Magic Bartel is not and shouldn't come over to us. Shiel yes. Edwards however is starting to prove himself as a genuine mid. He could be our best clearance player ATM but even with him in the forward line we need another. Gordon should go. Too soft. Morris. No footballing intelligence or ability to damage offensively.

Edwards is too light to be a permanent mid. He is good as part of the rotations but still has to prove himself as a permanent midfielder against the elite!

Thats why Freo have Neale, Mundy, Fyfe, Barlow....

Why can't Bartel come over? Can't see the point of Bartel sticking around Geelong atm. Geelong would like a bit of compo for their rebuild and only so many can coach at Geelong. We seriously lack quality and boy could we use his footy smarts!

 

[Punt_Road_Roar]

Delist/trade/time to move on:

Petterd - soft
Grigg - soft
Dea - cant crack it into the team time to go
Hampson - useless
Hunt - not impressed even if Hardwick thinks otherwise
McDonough - wont make it
Foley - too old
Lambert - too slow
Knights - the unlucky one injuries meant we never got to see his best.
Newman - too old
Vickery - no need for him, might be worth a trade
Conca - too slow and small might trade him to West Coast they need midfielders

That's the first 12 you would move on

Unfortunately that's 12 players and even though there is still more on the list that should go you cant move on more than 12 players in a year otherwise your doing yourself more harm than good.

The other issue we have is the likes of Deledio probably doesn't want to be around for another rebuild and I would'nt blame him so we might lose him, at least he has value though.

Will be hard to keep Rance if we look unstable but again at least he has value too.

I'd also look at sacking our recruitment department and hire guys who want to draft tall tough midfielders and quick nippy forwards. We also need another Ruckman.

 

[tdyen]

I see our biggest weakness for a premiership as genuine talent and depth of talent in the back line. Vlastuins move there is good and now we need to add talent and depth for whenever our backs go down.

Tall talent in particular, Grimes goes down all the time, hopefully Astbury matures, Chaplin is no spring chicken and of limited talent.
Batchelor is only so so but may come good with games.

I would love to see us find a distributor, a really good kick. Maybe Houli moves to a back pocket, but has he got the strength and the mongrel for a backman? I'd like to see Ellis play a few games there to develop as the distributor.

Rance is our shining light in the back line, if he goes we have a big black hole to fill, the obvious player would have been Darrou but we dropped him. Was it 2 or 3 years developing as a full back and then kapoof. Silly.