Roast It's time to ditch the pokies

[dermott]

wasn't it Jeff Kennett that legalised them in the 90's?.

No! For the sake of accuracy it was the Kirner government that legalised poker machines in 1992.
Personally, I find poker machines to be as boring as bat s**t and haven't played one since they had handles and were known as one armed bandits.
But ban them? Probably better to regulate as much as can be done to minimise the social harm. Unfortunately the government is addicted to the tax revenue they generate so don't hold your breath waiting for them to do anything.

 

[Flukey!]

Morally, I do agree with the OP but where do you stop?
They are licensed venues so of course they sell alcohol. Alcohol can be just as damaging as gambling.
No doubt the venues have cigarette machines. Cigarettes can devastate lives as well.

Nice idea, but in reality it would be superficial to ban one vice when we encourage/support so many others.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Morally, I do agree with the OP but where do you stop?
They are licensed venues so of course they sell alcohol. Alcohol can be just as damaging as gambling.
No doubt the venues have cigarette machines. Cigarettes can devastate lives as well.

Nice idea, but in reality it would be superficial to ban one vice when we encourage/support so many others.

Let's not forget junk food. With our obesity rates spiralling, at a cost of billions per year on the public health system due to associated lifestyle health issues - surely the Hawks should opt to only sell healthy food options at all venues, including mandates that the MCG only sell healthy food options at home games.

 

[Matt Stevic]

Morally, I do agree with the OP but where do you stop?
They are licensed venues so of course they sell alcohol. Alcohol can be just as damaging as gambling.
No doubt the venues have cigarette machines. Cigarettes can devastate lives as well.

Nice idea, but in reality it would be superficial to ban one vice when we encourage/support so many others.

The difference with pokies vs alcohol and tobacco is that pokies are easily banned and the problem is gone. It's not that those other things aren't destructive.

 

[Hawk Dork]

Wether we agree or disagree with how the AFL goes about its business,it has tried to steer an ethical course,through its various endeavours ,domestic violence, drink driving,racism etc ,it will only be a matter of time when they will feel the need to tackle problem gambling.
A plan B will be needed at some stage.

 

[Gold Member]

The difference with pokies vs alcohol and tobacco is that pokies are easily banned and the problem is gone. It's not that those other things aren't destructive.

ROFL.

Get a clue.

 

[Lethality]

The club does responsible gambling ads, probably to try and seem socially responsible.

There's no excuses, pokies are designed to rip people off, and they do it well. We should be rid of them as soon as we can.

 

[mess]

Great point

Reminds me of all the protesters up in arms when a new McDonalds opens up

Just hope and pray these protesters never need to use the fabulous facilities at Ronald McDonald House!

Super nice of you.

Boycott Tecoma McDonald's.

 

[Flukey!]

The difference with pokies vs alcohol and tobacco is that pokies are easily banned and the problem is gone. It's not that those other things aren't destructive.

While the state govt receive so much revenue from licensing and the ongoing tax contributions, they are no longer easily banned.
They are worth too much to too many people now.

The onus has to fall on the individual to act responsibly.
Just like, smoking, drinking, speeding etc etc.

 

[flinchfree]

Yeh....Na.

Why pokies specifically? Have you or the rest of the world worked out pokies are particularly chosen as Satan's work?
What about the dear old Granny who can't stop adding teaspoons to her collection she buys off ebay? She's got over 300 now, spends upwards of $100 apiece, and it means she doesn't sometimes pick up her old dear hubby's ointment when the funds run low....... Maybe we should limit her ebay account, or get rid of ebay altogether?
What about foods whose consumption cause all kinds of dietary problems through life and cost us through our socially funded medical system? Lets close down supermarkets that don't meet a health rating, no?
Many have already mentioned booze, I guess a social club is not the right look for a sports club either, or for that matter just a Sunday arvo with friends at the pub.....
Or even sports in general with their gladiatorial notions, embedded masculine bonding that doesn't exactly honor women equally.......shouldn't we be doing something more cerebral with our time as a race?????

Pulllleeaze.
When I smoked dope it was me who was the dope, not the grower or dealer.
When I skipped school, I was the miscreant - not my teachers.
If I want to gamble, let me gamble, it's legal, in a frickin world so screwed up with hatred and mistrust and endless responsibility to our jobs and families and nation and and and......can't we have just a bit of free space to dick up our meager resources exactly how we want to, without being cudgelled into best behavior practices.

I think we earn our right to piss away our free time EXACTLY how we would each choose, and it would be nice if you'd keep your notions of superior judgement TO YOUR SELF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Hawk Dork]

While the state govt receive so much revenue from licensing and the ongoing tax contributions, they are no longer easily banned.
They are worth too much to too many people now.

The onus has to fall on the individual to act responsibly.
Just like, smoking, drinking, speeding etc etc.

True its far easier to get tax from poor people than it is to get tax from big polluters and mining companies.
Poor people dont have the money or powerful mates to run a campaign against it.

 

[Leather Poisoning]

Pokies are a scummy scummy business.

Our club should have the admin skill to make money out of something that actually provides value to people.

 

[Leather Poisoning]

Pokies are a scummy scummy business.

Our club should have the admin skill to make money out of something that actually provides value to people.

 

[GOHORCS]

I struggle with responses like this because it tells me that we rarely reflect on what it would be like to be in the shoes of someone else who is less fortunate.

No one is forcing me to play the pokies either, and I've got no interest in them, but that doesn't change the fact that thousands of people sink their life savings into them every year. So if we assume for a moment that those people don't really want to lose their homes/families then perhaps there is something else going on? Perhaps they have an addiction, which is a complex and messy thing? Perhaps the idea that we can just 'decide' not to do things that are destructive to us and our loved ones is a bit simplistic in some instances? If addressing drug/alcohol/gambling addition was as simple as teaching people to 'have some self control', then surely the problem would have been solved long ago?

And I don't buy the 'people will do it any way, so we may as well cash in on their suffering' argument. The Hawthorn Football Club doesn't exist outside of society or outside of a collective sense of morality, so it's absolutely reasonable for supporters to question business decisions they make that have wider social implications.

Hawthorn is the owner of a venue that makes a profit based on alcohol and pokies revenue. As a sporting club it contributes a lot of positivity to society unlike a lot of other owners of pokie venues. The reflection on what it would be like to be someone less fortunate is not the responsibility of a sporting club to decide their economic diversity around. The government allows pokie machines to exist, we all know they can be addictive, we all know they can devastate lives yet their is a demand for them. The same could even be said for fast food restaurants in terms of health concerns. The only reason we are discussing this is because it is a football club making money not a fortune 500 business.

 

[Badesumofu]

ROFL.

Get a clue.

As someone who works in the gaming industry - pokies are actually one of the few vice-related problems in the world that you can largely fix through banning. The problem is that businesses and governments both become just as dependent on the revenue as the punters are addicted to the machines. You can't just make gambling go away by banning it, it will go to the black market. But black market pokies aren't a thing, and pokies are probably the most destructive form of gambling. They require minimal conscious input and they can suck your money away at a rapid rate. Sports betting requires time and thought. It won't suit a lot of the worst pokies addicts.

I am extremely socially liberal. I think drugs should be legalised and taxed. Tax them enough to pay for the cost to the health system and pay for proper education about them. You'd clear out your jails almost overnight and free up the police for real crime. Another topic for another day. But I think pokies ought to be banned. They are designed specifically to addict their users and extract as much money as possible with almost no consideration for how that effects the user. It'd be like if we did legalise drugs and then tell drug companies that it was fine to design the most addictive drugs imaginable to maximise profits so long as they gave the government and big business their cut. Rather the recreational drug and gambling industries ought to be regulated to ensure they provide the least damaging and most enjoyable experiences for their customers.

Okay, I got a long way off topic there. I don't like our club running pokies, but I understand that if we gave them up, that would just free up the licenses for someone else to use and create no net good in the community, so I have mixed feelings.

 

[Suntory Boss Coffee]

Would rather not be broke but whatever. If you want Hawthorn to go back to pre 2004 levels, then well. You're an idiot. Let's ban betting as a whole while we're at it. Stop selling alcohol because that can cause harm. Hell, let's just all live in bubbles for the rest of our lives. Then we can be 100% sure that our own idiocy won't get us in trouble.

 

[Suntory Boss Coffee]

Pokies are a scummy scummy business.

Our club should have the admin skill to make money out of something that actually provides value to people.

If we did have an economically viable strategy that was ethical then I am sure that we would. But the truth is that there isn't one that provides the same levels of income that pokies give.

 

[QuietB]

Great point

Reminds me of all the protesters up in arms when a new McDonalds opens up

Just hope and pray these protesters never need to use the fabulous facilities at Ronald McDonald House!

I don't disagree with the sentiment of what you are saying (hypocrisy) but that is a bit of a long bow. People don't have to boycott Ronald McDonald House to stay true to their beliefs

Anyways, constant and unavoidable hypocrisy is part of the gig with western society. I'm not sure footy clubs are the right ones to be bucking against that.

 

[Gold Member]

As someone who works in the gaming industry - pokies are actually one of the few vice-related problems in the world that you can largely fix through banning. The problem is that businesses and governments both become just as dependent on the revenue as the punters are addicted to the machines. You can't just make gambling go away by banning it, it will go to the black market. But black market pokies aren't a thing, and pokies are probably the most destructive form of gambling. They require minimal conscious input and they can suck your money away at a rapid rate. Sports betting requires time and thought. It won't suit a lot of the worst pokies addicts.

I am extremely socially liberal. I think drugs should be legalised and taxed. Tax them enough to pay for the cost to the health system and pay for proper education about them. You'd clear out your jails almost overnight and free up the police for real crime. Another topic for another day. But I think pokies ought to be banned. They are designed specifically to addict their users and extract as much money as possible with almost no consideration for how that effects the user. It'd be like if we did legalise drugs and then tell drug companies that it was fine to design the most addictive drugs imaginable to maximise profits so long as they gave the government and big business their cut. Rather the recreational drug and gambling industries ought to be regulated to ensure they provide the least damaging and most enjoyable experiences for their customers.

Okay, I got a long way off topic there. I don't like our club running pokies, but I understand that if we gave them up, that would just free up the licenses for someone else to use and create no net good in the community, so I have mixed feelings.

WTF?

You state that Pokies could simply be banned then proceed to give us reasons why it'll never happen. Tax, tax, tax.
Same goes for alcohol & tobacco.
Drugs are banned, yet every day some meth head has murdered innocents on a whim.

For the record, we are better off with pokies being the size of ATMs and being housed inside age restricted venues than we would be with having online slots readily accessible from the privacy of home and on every smart phone. Which incidentally 50% of 14 year olds have virtually unrestricted access to. Sports betting has already paved the way to this glorious utopia.

 

[Randy Campbell]

Do people think we can get rid of problem gambling if there were no pokies?

 

[Tasmaniac]

Keep the pokies, we make fat profits off them, and since modern AFL is now an arms race (footy dept spending race) we need to ensure we have the best arms (footy dept) money can buy.

To do that we need to keep the fat profits rolling in, if those figures are correct, and we are making 4 million profit off them when we (probably) make a total surplus of less than that indicates the pokie profit stream is a necessary part of our club revenues to maintain our footy dept spending.

If you want pokies gone then get stuck into your state govt (and see half the pokie addicts switch to scratchies, or the casino or go on organised bus trips across the border to gamble on pokies).

They are horrible, but I doubt they are going anywhere.

 

[dipper86]

It's not often when I give North credit, but their positive anti gambling stance must be commended. And I think it's about time for us to follow their lead, and decommission our poker machines. We can't claim to be the family club when we so actively participate in something that breaks up families.

You're giving North credit. For what ? .....conceding that they had no idea how to make a profit in there pokies venture.

North had purchased pokies to run in the Captain's Bar at Etihad, a venture they couldn't make profitable.
They then tried to transfer ownership of said pokies to Etihad as contra to wipe out a $2 million debt - which also failed.

Well done North, masquerading as the moral benchmark when in fact they shut up shop because they were haemorrhaging money. If they were making a profit they would still be doing it.

PS: Hope you'e feeling better about yourself bud..... Hang in there !

 

[SSSSSS]

Get rid of em.

 

[Davo23]

I struggle with responses like this because it tells me that we rarely reflect on what it would be like to be in the shoes of someone else who is less fortunate.

No one is forcing me to play the pokies either, and I've got no interest in them, but that doesn't change the fact that thousands of people sink their life savings into them every year. So if we assume for a moment that those people don't really want to lose their homes/families then perhaps there is something else going on? Perhaps they have an addiction, which is a complex and messy thing? Perhaps the idea that we can just 'decide' not to do things that are destructive to us and our loved ones is a bit simplistic in some instances? If addressing drug/alcohol/gambling addition was as simple as teaching people to 'have some self control', then surely the problem would have been solved long ago?

And I don't buy the 'people will do it any way, so we may as well cash in on their suffering' argument. The Hawthorn Football Club doesn't exist outside of society or outside of a collective sense of morality, so it's absolutely reasonable for supporters to question business decisions they make that have wider social implications.

While I understand that there are problems in gambling, not all of it involves "cashing in on suffering".

There are many people who see pokies as a bit of fun. They may or may not gamble responsibly, but they are happy to spend their money. I have done it myself, knowing that I was throwing my money away but that's my choice.

People do have a choice and do make good and bad decisions.
Do we have the right to take away that choice?

 

[HawkintheTuarts]

It is a traditional sporting business model that has a demand. There are a limited amount of licences available which makes good business sense. From a social perspective the use of pokie machines can have a devastating effect on the lives of people and individuals as can alcohol misuse. I feel better about our football club owning the rights to some machines which in turn funds a sporting club that gives back to the community in inspiration to do other things other than sit in front of a machine and put money in it. Many of the other owners of these rights are pubs which are all owned by conglomerates like Wesfarmers who are only interested in profit and give nothing back.
I agree morally with the stance North Melbourne has taken but it is not the responsibility of a sporting club to manage social issues and if all sporting clubs followed suit would only feed the corporate monster.

Yeah by encouraging sitting in front of a machine watching your team play whilst having another machine nearby to gamble on. No wonder Crowns' foot is so far up the government's arse. Irony.

I have to disagree, I see no reason why AFL clubs shouldn't be involved in gambling when you can't watch a sporting event without sportsbet or tomwaterhouse plastered all over the place. There's many vices in this world and people need to take blame from their action and learn self control rather than pointing the finger else where.

The inundation of betting advertisement is another thing entirely that has gone over the top and the problem isn't just getting that douchebag's smug face off our tv screens at this time of year

How many families & people did our club bring joy to this year compared to how many families it 'broke up' ?

Just imagine a world where you're adding those two numbers together, not subtracting from one another and claiming a positive integer as a good thing. 2 good deeds don't mean the 1 bad deed didn't happen or shouldn't have consequences.

Morally, I do agree with the OP but where do you stop?
They are licensed venues so of course they sell alcohol. Alcohol can be just as damaging as gambling.
No doubt the venues have cigarette machines. Cigarettes can devastate lives as well.

Nice idea, but in reality it would be superficial to ban one vice when we encourage/support so many others.

Umm... Stop at the pokies? Don't let a slippery slope get in the way of the issue at hand now!

We heavily regulate and tax a lot of other vices. There are a lot of laws now about the advertisement and marketing of some of these. Gambling, in all it's forms get's a way with a heck of a lot.