James Stewart I think we made a mistake not taking him as a father son

[Prestige Presti]

On my own here, but Ramsey showed a bit with his second half of last season, liked his attitude and looks like he's continuing to build as a player, and with our current crop of developing talls, wouldn't change too much if anything.

One too many reactionary calls this preseason, many coming from the experts too, concerns me every year.

 

[Knightmare]

The reality with McCarthy will be that he'll require certainly a top 10, maybe top 5 pick to get. Those who are saying second round haven't been paying attention. He's a star in the making.

 

[Bay Pie]

Is Stewart a tall, low possession style forward flanker?

Sounds like Goldsack without the defensive pressure.

 

[popin]

Is this thread coming to an end yet lol

 

[Prestige Presti]

The reality with McCarthy will be that he'll require certainly a top 10, maybe top 5 pick to get. Those who are saying second round haven't been paying attention. He's a star in the making.

I'd imagine you watch a fair bit of NEAFL so i will pick your brain as to why you're so keen on McCarthy as a prospect?

I'd like to think i pay a fair amount of attention, and from what i've seen thus far McCarthy is behind both Patton and Stewart, both got games ahead of him last season, and he was a sub against the Bulldogs, who had one of the worst defenses for the second half of last year.

Perhaps he's being underutilized and perhaps a team devoid of key position talent would pay overs for him based on what he could produce down the track, but the way you phrased what I've bolded suggests he's produced enough thus far to warrant a top 5 pick, to which i would argue he hasn't.

Obviously has a fair amount of potential, as any top 20 pick does, but has he done enough at state level to warrant a top 10 pick right now?

 

[35Daicos]

If McCarthy was to go anywhere, being a WA boy that state would be a more likely destination. You'd think Fremantle should be very keen on him. I hope he stays where he is and has a long and decent career.

As for Stewart, I was keen on us taking him (largely because of the "romance" of the father-son situation), but the price we would have had to pay was going to be too high, so I'm happy to back the club's decision, as usual. If he turns into a quality player at GWS, good luck to him and them.

 

[pablo disco bar]

Who knows maybe we were gonna take him at 30 but gws stepped in at pick 27

 

[Bay Pie]

The reality with McCarthy will be that he'll require certainly a top 10, maybe top 5 pick to get. Those who are saying second round haven't been paying attention. He's a star in the making.

I haven't seen anything of McCarthy but I recall a bit of Kristian Jascksh. He was a similar KP highish draft pick, like McCarthy and I believe he played quite a bit of AFL footy.

Jascksh, Wiley & pick 19 were traded for picks 7 and 28. McCarthy would need to play plenty this year and play well to warrant a top 10 pick on it's own.

 

[Knightmare]

Is Stewart a tall, low possession style forward flanker?

Sounds like Goldsack without the defensive pressure.

Similar build as a lightish guy and similar level athlete though taller again and a much smoother mover with significantly better skills as one of the sweetest kicking talls you'll ever see.

Stewart is developing in a hurry and his numbers are greatly improving. He plays as a key forward and when he plays deep tried his best impersonation of Cloke which as a lightly built guy just doesn't work for him at all, but when he is used as more of a flanker that's when he looks better I feel.

Personally I like Stewart as a key defender being such a precise kick of the footy and reading the flight so well I'd love to see him developed into that 2011 Ben Reid style rebounding key defender, not that he will be as good, but that's what I'd like to see him become as I did when he was drafted.

I feel with key forwards unless you're elite they should be played back, and with Stewart I see him as sufficient up forward without being that piece you can build around, and with his talent better suited to playing down back I see that as a no brainer for GWS given they've got the forwards but could do with another key defender.

I'd imagine you watch a fair bit of NEAFL so i will pick your brain as to why you're so keen on McCarthy as a prospect?

I'd like to think i pay a fair amount of attention, and from what i've seen thus far McCarthy is behind both Patton and Stewart, both got games ahead of him last season, and he was a sub against the Bulldogs, who had one of the worst defenses for the second half of last year.

Perhaps he's being underutilized and perhaps a team devoid of key position talent would pay overs for him based on what he could produce down the track, but the way you phrased what I've bolded suggests he's produced enough thus far to warrant a top 5 pick, to which i would argue he hasn't.

Obviously has a fair amount of potential, as any top 20 pick does, but has he done enough at state level to warrant a top 10 pick right now?

I do my best to watch all GC + GWS (NEAFL) games that get posted on youtube and then all their AFL games I like to catch up on during the week.

Improvement is the big one for me in young key forwards. McCarthy is showing that in spades. When drafted he was this raw guy with no understanding of leading patterns, no set shot goalkicking technique and had not played much footy, but did have some natural talent as a guy who could take athletic grabs overhead and had some real courage just going at the footy.

Last year during the season McCarthy showed improvement and his numbers improved. It was really a learning year and he over the course of the season showed great signs of picking up the game.

This year after essentially no preseason just coming off surgery he has in my view been the best player for GWS in both NAB 1+2 (note: in NAB 1 he only played a quarter from what I recall, but that time he was on the ground he looked the best guy out there and then NAB 2 played the full game and dominated). McCarthy seems now to have a really good feel for where to be up forward. His set shot goalkicking technique is really good, simple and straight and it's getting the results you want. Every touch he is getting he is really using it meaningfully and making something happen whether it's a goal assist or a hockey assist (a pass to a guy who gets a goal assist). He is also doing some really terrific stuff off the ball, getting in timely bumps to create space for team mates, tackling etc.

The bottom line with McCarthy is he has gone from raw with potential to having ironed out his weaknesses, making them into strengths and developed already in his second season an AFL relevant key forwards game and a game that with preseasons and more game time will only continue to improve rapidly based on his late start and his rapid development which for talls continues well into their 20s.

My projection is McCarthy has the scope to become a top 5 key forward in the AFL, and if not then he is a fairly safe bet for top 10 key forward in the AFL if he continues developing at his present pace and stays relatively injury free over the course of his career. His develop curve should roughly reflect that of Gold Coast's Tom Lynch as someone who will develop at a similar rate at similar stages throughout the years.

So given this while you can never perfectly project a guys future, there is strong reason for optimism with McCarthy with everything that is going on with him and watching what has happened over the past few seasons suggesting he has a really big future in our game as quite possibly a star level key forward in our game.

 

[Knightmare]

I haven't seen anything of McCarthy but I recall a bit of Kristian Jascksh. He was a similar KP highish draft pick, like McCarthy and I believe he played quite a bit of AFL footy.

Jascksh, Wiley & pick 19 were traded for picks 7 and 28. McCarthy would need to play plenty this year and play well to warrant a top 10 pick on it's own.

Jaksch is pretty good but McCarthy is on another level in my view (although draft positions were around if not the same point).

McCarthy wasn't as advanced as Jaksch when he came into the game, but he is developing at a more rapid rate and even as a player who is a year younger than Jaksch, he looks better now. When looking for a tall long term, it's that most rapid rate of development that I'd put the most stock in.

McCarthy for me is more the key forward with Jaksch more the key back, and addition by position I see McCarthy as the higher level key forward, whereas Jaksch while he can be a long term player, I don't see him reaching the same heights.

If I had pick 5 or 6 in next years draft, no hesitation, if GWS are offering McCarthy, on what I'm seeing today (subject to change over the course of the season), I'm taking McCarthy.

 

[Old Spice]

The reality with McCarthy will be that he'll require certainly a top 10, maybe top 5 pick to get. Those who are saying second round haven't been paying attention. He's a star in the making.

Pick 5-10? That's way too much to pay when a player has shown only glimpses. I think he'll be good, but at the minute he's in the Aaron Black, Jordan Roughead, Levi Casboult mould of prospective players. Who knows if he'll end up like Jason Dunstall, Jay Schulze or John Anthony?

Top 10 is what you pay when the article is a known quantity. Maybe at the end of 2015 McCarthy might be worth that, but the discussion is taking place now with what we know. If you're taking a speculative punt, you don't put the bank on it.

When you're talking about potential, I think Josh Kennedy of WC is a clarifying example. Kennedy was originally taken by Carlton at pick 4 in 2005 but when Judd requested to go to Carlton, WC didn't pick up Kennedy in a direct swap with Judd and a second round sweetener. To be sure, Kennedy was only a promising talent, much like McCarthy, and precisely for that reason West Coast weren't going to overvalue Kennedy and assign him 5-10 value. Instead they asked for the surety of pick 4, pick 20 plus Kennedy.

The other thing to say here is that there are always quality tall forwards being taken post pick 10 in the national draft; Jack Reiwoldt (pick 13), Tippett (32), Westhoff (33), Carlisle (24), Darling (26) and McGovern (74). I don't see the value in panic buying on potential. High draft picks are as rare as rocking-horse shite and if someone wants to do that, good luck to them.

But to my thinking it's far better to patiently wait for a KPF that is around the value of our natural picks or to trade up to get one if our pick is a little low to secure a talent. To overpay on KPF potential - and most talls are a bigger gamble than mids in the draft - is to invite calamity. I'd prefer we utilise the cheaper option of Free Agency to fill roles until the right target comes along. The only exception for me is if we are looking to trade in an established talent who can get us a flag.

 

[loki04]

I don't know the conversations that do/ did go on behind closed doors. So yeah he may well say that, but who am I to to say he won't say I'd love to play for Collingwood and I understand why you overlooked me because I drifted through my top age 18 year...

haha he very well could, I'm just more vindictive and would try stick it up them!

 

[Apex36]

haha he very well could, I'm just more vindictive and would try stick it up them!

From what I've heard they were in very close contact with the Stewarts during James' draft year. They would have been well aware of the reasons behind him not being nominated by the pies, and I don't think there's any ill will on his end.

 

[TradeDraft]

We did not take Stewart because Hine did not know what Picks we would get for Dawes and Wellingham

 

[Ketchup]

We did not take Stewart because Hine did not know what Picks we would get for Dawes and Wellingham

Or maybe Hine just didn't think he was any good

 

[TradeDraft]

Or maybe Hine just didn't think he was any good

I am just saying what Hine said in 2012

 

[loki04]

Is Stewart a tall, low possession style forward flanker?

Sounds like Goldsack without the defensive pressure.

Who has also shown signs of strong overhead marking he will come good just take time as he is learning his craft.

Mcartheys game is more easily shut down then what Stewart's will be (once fully realised).

Re Gault: Stewart has so much more natural ball handling skill on Gault it isn't funny.

Stewart's skills with the ball have never been in question what has been in question is will he become the focal KPF target needed or remain a tall HFF but I have seen a a few signs suggesting he will make it as a KPF.

 

[jackcass]

Darcy Moore but I think Buckley has said he will play down back. Could do with some young developing tall forwards.

Yeah be great to have another 10-15 blokes developing in the seconds....





Oh wait, lists capped at 44 plus cat B rookies.... That can't be fair!

 

[Knightmare]

Pick 5-10? That's way too much to pay when a player has shown only glimpses. I think he'll be good, but at the minute he's in the Aaron Black, Jordan Roughead, Levi Casboult mould of prospective players. Who knows if he'll end up like Jason Dunstall, Jay Schulze or John Anthony?

Top 10 is what you pay when the article is a known quantity. Maybe at the end of 2015 McCarthy might be worth that, but the discussion is taking place now with what we know. If you're taking a speculative punt, you don't put the bank on it.

When you're talking about potential, I think Josh Kennedy of WC is a clarifying example. Kennedy was originally taken by Carlton at pick 4 in 2005 but when Judd requested to go to Carlton, WC didn't pick up Kennedy in a direct swap with Judd and a second round sweetener. To be sure, Kennedy was only a promising talent, much like McCarthy, and precisely for that reason West Coast weren't going to overvalue Kennedy and assign him 5-10 value. Instead they asked for the surety of pick 4, pick 20 plus Kennedy.

The other thing to say here is that there are always quality tall forwards being taken post pick 10 in the national draft; Jack Reiwoldt (pick 13), Tippett (32), Westhoff (33), Carlisle (24), Darling (26) and McGovern (74). I don't see the value in panic buying on potential. High draft picks are as rare as rocking-horse shite and if someone wants to do that, good luck to them.

But to my thinking it's far better to patiently wait for a KPF that is around the value of our natural picks or to trade up to get one if our pick is a little low to secure a talent. To overpay on KPF potential - and most talls are a bigger gamble than mids in the draft - is to invite calamity. I'd prefer we utilise the cheaper option of Free Agency to fill roles until the right target comes along. The only exception for me is if we are looking to trade in an established talent who can get us a flag.

Conceptually I agree a lot of what you're saying. I'm pro going after proven guys who you know with absolute certainty are AFL quality players and high level AFL quality players at that. I don't believe in wasting time with speculative players.

If we were talking about a young ruckman I would completely agree with your point as historically clubs have overpaid for developing and unproven ruckmen (we only have to look at ourselves with Cameron Wood as an example of this), but I see key forwards as fitting into another category entirely in terms of analysing their games.

With key forwards you look at talent and specifically points of difference. The other factors are rate of improvement and production.

Cameron McCarthy is a pick 14 and Tom Lynch (GC) was a pick 11 overall. As a rule you're picking them in the first round and if they're absolutely exceptional and other clubs have just flat out got the evaluation wrong you can sometimes get them in the second round. Otherwise it's father son/alternative pathways.

I've watched a lot of McCarthy so I'll back my evaluation on him in. If you asked me to re-do the 2013 AFL draft I'd be taking Bontempelli at 1, but McCarthy at 2. McCarthy based on his first two NAB challenge games assuming he continues his form and continues to develop could by years end already be one of GWS' very best players. He has certain

What you may/may not be aware with McCarthy through the first two games of the NAB Challenge. In game 1 v GC McCarthy came on 5 minutes into the final quarter. In that small portion of the game he achieved 4 kicks, 3 handballs, 3 marks and 3 goals for 45 dream team points! Insane stuff!
Then in NAB 2 playing the full game time he had 9 kicks, 2 handballs, 6 marks, 3 tackles and 3 goals, 1 behind to achieve the second highest dream team score for GWS of 81dt points (to illustrate his productivity - only Heath Shaw scored more with 82dt).
The critical thing with what McCarthy has been his impact per disposal. He hasn't seemed to have wasted a touch and has had goal assists and hockey assists (getting it to the guy who sets up the goalkicker, as essentially the meaningful play starter). Then in addition to all that his work off the ball and pressuring also has been terrific.
Do that as a second year key forward without a preseason? That's absolutely unreal!
And the fact that when drafted he had such a raw game as someone fairly new to the game makes his future outlook project as otherworldly with second year key forwards rarely worth playing at AFL level let alone producing to a best on list standard through two consecutive games.

We've still got this season to play and at the rate he is going he can and probably will play himself off the trade table and quite possibly past Patton even who last year when playing proved at times a handful.

With McCarthy I don't look at him as a project. I see him as someone who can produce now to an AFL standard, and will on top of that continue his improvement due to his age and the nature of his game with the rate of improvement he has shown these past two seasons with all the key indicators suggesting that will only continue into the future.

Just watching this season will either confirm that McCarthy is the real deal now, or will need more time. But signs at this stage. He looks like he can have a real impact and be not just a fit into that GWS front half but even in difference maker if his first two NAB Challenge games are any indication (even if those are to be his better games), the evidence is growing in his favour.

 

[jackcass]

Surely it comes down to what pick we were going to be forced to use if we nominated him?
So, assuming we nominate him and then GWS offer their 2nd rounder we have to match it.
Sure we can decline to pick him but what message does that send to him and his family saying we'll draft him and then not.
I much prefer what we clearly did i.e, had open/honest dialogue with them.

Can actually walk away from the bidding process at any time if another team bids higher than we're prepared to go. As I understand it the club just wanted full access to its draft selection during the trade period. May well have selected Stewart instead Ramsay if he was still available at 38.

 

[Stifler's mom]

May well have selected Stewart instead Ramsay if he was still available at 38.

Is that still an option?

 

[TradeDraft]

Can actually walk away from the bidding process at any time if another team bids higher than we're prepared to go. As I understand it the club just wanted full access to its draft selection during the trade period. May well have selected Stewart instead Ramsay if he was still available at 38.

I thought we would had to used Pick 20(Tim Broomhead) not Pick 38(Ramsey)?

 

[Apex36]

I thought we would had to used Pick 20(Tim Broomhead) not Pick 38(Ramsey)?

No. GWS bid pick 27, our next was 38.

 

[Bay Pie]

Who has also shown signs of strong overhead marking he will come good just take time as he is learning his craft.

Still sounds like Goldsack after his 1st year.

Everything I've read and seen of Stewart indicates tall flanker, not KPP.

 

[THATSGOLD]

Conceptually I agree a lot of what you're saying. I'm pro going after proven guys who you know with absolute certainty are AFL quality players and high level AFL quality players at that. I don't believe in wasting time with speculative players.

If we were talking about a young ruckman I would completely agree with your point as historically clubs have overpaid for developing and unproven ruckmen (we only have to look at ourselves with Cameron Wood as an example of this), but I see key forwards as fitting into another category entirely in terms of analysing their games.

With key forwards you look at talent and specifically points of difference. The other factors are rate of improvement and production.

Cameron McCarthy is a pick 14 and Tom Lynch (GC) was a pick 11 overall. As a rule you're picking them in the first round and if they're absolutely exceptional and other clubs have just flat out got the evaluation wrong you can sometimes get them in the second round. Otherwise it's father son/alternative pathways.

I've watched a lot of McCarthy so I'll back my evaluation on him in. If you asked me to re-do the 2013 AFL draft I'd be taking Bontempelli at 1, but McCarthy at 2. McCarthy based on his first two NAB challenge games assuming he continues his form and continues to develop could by years end already be one of GWS' very best players. He has certain

What you may/may not be aware with McCarthy through the first two games of the NAB Challenge. In game 1 v GC McCarthy came on 5 minutes into the final quarter. In that small portion of the game he achieved 4 kicks, 3 handballs, 3 marks and 3 goals for 45 dream team points! Insane stuff!
Then in NAB 2 playing the full game time he had 9 kicks, 2 handballs, 6 marks, 3 tackles and 3 goals, 1 behind to achieve the second highest dream team score for GWS of 81dt points (to illustrate his productivity - only Heath Shaw scored more with 82dt).
The critical thing with what McCarthy has been his impact per disposal. He hasn't seemed to have wasted a touch and has had goal assists and hockey assists (getting it to the guy who sets up the goalkicker, as essentially the meaningful play starter). Then in addition to all that his work off the ball and pressuring also has been terrific.
Do that as a second year key forward without a preseason? That's absolutely unreal!
And the fact that when drafted he had such a raw game as someone fairly new to the game makes his future outlook project as otherworldly with second year key forwards rarely worth playing at AFL level let alone producing to a best on list standard through two consecutive games.

We've still got this season to play and at the rate he is going he can and probably will play himself off the trade table and quite possibly past Patton even who last year when playing proved at times a handful.

With McCarthy I don't look at him as a project. I see him as someone who can produce now to an AFL standard, and will on top of that continue his improvement due to his age and the nature of his game with the rate of improvement he has shown these past two seasons with all the key indicators suggesting that will only continue into the future.

Just watching this season will either confirm that McCarthy is the real deal now, or will need more time. But signs at this stage. He looks like he can have a real impact and be not just a fit into that GWS front half but even in difference maker if his first two NAB Challenge games are any indication (even if those are to be his better games), the evidence is growing in his favour.

Would you be able to to the top 10 of the 2013 draft again? Just curious to see who you would have now. I would personally still have Tom Boyd at 1, I think you've written him off there. I would also still have Kelly at 2. GWS selected the best two for mine.