Jon Ralph on why Macca was sacked

[Ozimandas]

Lol do u honestly believe this rubbish??

AND a business man of Peter Gordons experience wouldn't see this?

Peter Gordon is a great litigator. He was president during 2014. I love the guys passion and effort he puts into the club.

But during 2014...

1. Our 1st round choice and loyal captain walked out of the club because he did not like the coach and could not get this message through to the administration. When he raised it/complained they tried to talk him around. He has walked out and not gone to a Hawthorn or Sydney. He chose GWS. A club that that still has a long way to go but sold him on the fact that it would be a better environment- Gordon/Administration failed.
2. Our 1st round choice and brown low medallist decided that his future was best served at another club. Did he go to Hawthorn or Sydney? No. Did he choose to go to North? No. He chose Essendon. A club that sold him on a better environment. - Gordon/Administration failed.
3. Our coach. A good man. Needed to be fired for not being a good coach or supported so he could be a good coach ended up having to resign. Gordon/Administration did not take full control of the situation. - Gordon/Administration failed.
4. We lost Griffen and gave up pick 6 for Boyd. Boyd can be anything but at the moment is close to nothing. We have gambled very heavily. If this was a casino night we have lost everything then borrowed against future earnings and put it all-in on one bet! You dont run businesses in such a manner. If you owned shares in businesses run this way you would be best advised to get your money out of there. - Gordon/Administration failed.

Now before everyone jumps on me. I hope and want Boyd to pay off in the biggest way possible (I can dream of him captaining the club in a GF). But meanwhile back on planet earth Gordon/Administration needs to seriously get its shyte together or we will lose a heap of players in the next 12 to 36 months.

We need much more than a coach. The underlying problems that resulted in this mess need to be highlighted and taken care of. The club is still run on a shoestring compared to other clubs. At the very least there needs to be some sort of facilitator that floats between the separate divisions of the club and is not afraid to speak up and get all issues sorted as they arise. We cant afford any f..kups let alone colossal sized f..kups going forward.

 

[Butane]

If that is true, where does that leave our full time list manager?
You would assume that he has to take a fair chunk of responsibility for... wait for it... managing the list.

Or is everything that has ever gone wrong with the club B-Mac's fault?

Nah, I'm happy for those in charge to get sacked for a failed plan(failed because it's ended). Unlike B.McCartney who may have learnt from his mistake but couldn't go back and get the respect needed to coach players - the list manager might be able to learn from his mistakes and be able to continue.

 

[Mofra]

Nah, I'm happy for those in charge to get sacked for a failed plan(failed because it's ended). Unlike B.McCartney who may have learnt from his mistake but couldn't go back and get the respect needed to coach players - the list manager might be able to learn from his mistakes and be able to continue.

This seems revisionist at best - B Mac should be blamed for roles he did not undertake, but the person in charge should be given multiple chances for failing in areas that are his direct responsibility?

I'd love a job like this - all care, no responsibility.
I really cannot agree with this logic.

 

[Butane]

Many of us believe it was working fine

It officially failed.

Like the rocket that exploded on take off this morning in the US.

If you want the older guys for leadership and experience, a vital part of building a team, then you must have them buy into the long term plan and believe in the coach.

That may not be realistically possible anymore.

 

[yebiga]

It officially failed.

Like the rocket that exploded on take off this morning in the US.

If you want the older guys for leadership and experience, a vital part of building a team, then you must have them buy into the long term plan and believe in the coach.

That may not be realistically possible anymore.

Not really
It was only officially scuttled
I would bet heavily a number of forces in the club believed it best to upset a few senior players to trade in our chips

Macca is only the scape goat here
Nothing more

 

[Butane]

This seems revisionist at best - B Mac should be blamed for roles he did not undertake, but the person in charge should be given multiple chances for failing in areas that are his direct responsibility?

I'd love a job like this - all care, no responsibility.
I really cannot agree with this logic.

Macca would have struggled to walk back in those doors as the senior coach. Ask him, he'll agree that's true even if he thinks thats s**t. There were a lot more disgruntled personnel than just the senior players who left this year. How's Libba/Wallis/Macrae going to react next time Macca drills into him when they think it's unfair? This happens a lot and it's good for both coach and player but our young guys might just think 'Hang on, I don't agree - Griffen, Minson, Higgins, Jones ect were right about Macca, he's a nutjob that doesn't get it. Why am I here when other clubs have been talking to my agent.'

Jason McCartney can walk back in those doors, he has a different job that doesn't require eyeballing disgruntled players.

Both can improve and learn but only 1 can do that while holding his position. Different roles.

I don't want to put all the blame on B.McCartney for this strategy - that's true that it wasn't just him. But don't think he wasn't a massive reason for it either.

 

[Mofra]

Macca would have struggled to walk back in those doors as the senior coach. Ask him, he'll agree that's true even if he thinks thats s**t. There were a lot more disgruntled personnel than just the senior players who left this year. How's Libba/Wallis/Macrae going to react next time Macca drills into him when they think it's unfair? This happens a lot and it's good for both coach and player but our young guys might just think 'Hang on, I don't agree - Griffen, Minson, Higgins, Jones ect were right about Macca, he's a nutjob that doesn't get it. Why am I here when other clubs have been talking to my agent.'

Jason McCartney can walk back in those doors, he has a different job that doesn't require eyeballing disgruntled players.

Both can improve and learn but only 1 can do that while holding his position. Different roles.

I don't want to put all the blame on B.McCartney for this strategy - that's true that it wasn't just him. But don't think he wasn't a massive reason for it either.

Not all players disliked B-Mac

I don't think B Mac had a choice but to rebuild though - I know many posters constantly assume the state of the list is only a minor concern, but we had a terrible list over the past three years which for mine underlines our results in the past few years.

As much as people want to think otherwise - a quality list is vital to win games of football.

 

[yebiga]

Macca would have struggled to walk back in those doors as the senior coach. Ask him, he'll agree that's true even if he thinks thats s**t.

Jason McCartney can walk back in those doors, he has a different job that doesn't require eyeballing disgruntled players.

Both can improve and learn but only 1 can do that while holding his position. Different roles.

I don't want to put all the blame on B.McCartney for this strategy - that's true that it wasn't just him. But don't think he wasn't a massive reason for it either.

Of course it would have been extremely difficult for macca to continue
Often really worthwhile goals are difficult.
There is precedent for organizations including playing bodies to work things out - air their differences maturely and leave all parties better and stronger

There were clearly frustrations on both sides - players and coach

Macca certainly believed those differences were fixable
I am not sure the Morgan gallop poll conducted by Gordon over night does justice to the player concerns

 

[immortalmike]

sounds good. When is it on tv?

Well there was a movie with Lawrence Fishbourne and Jeremy Irons...

 

[Butane]

Macca certainly believed those differences were fixable
I am not sure the Morgan gallop poll conducted by Gordon over night does justice to the player concerns

I'm also not taking any blame away from Gordon either, he would have signed off on this 'difficult' plan too. Nor the way he handled the last few months from the review, which clearly raised SERIOUS question marks to the 24hour debacle of the captain walking out and backing/sacking the coach.

 

[Butane]

Not all players disliked B-Mac

I don't think B Mac had a choice but to rebuild though - I know many posters constantly assume the state of the list is only a minor concern, but we had a terrible list over the past three years which for mine underlines our results in the past few years.

As much as people want to think otherwise - a quality list is vital to win games of football.

We/I have the benefit of hindsight too. I think I explained that poorly before when I wrote about free agency changing the landscape. I'm not saying they should have known, or that I knew or anything pompous, I just think they got jumped by the ramifications of a total list rebuild.

 

[yebiga]

T

I'm also not taking any blame away from Gordon either, he would have signed off on this 'difficult' plan too. Nor the way he handled the last few months from the review, which clearly raised SERIOUS question marks to the 24hour debacle of the captain walking out and backing/sacking the coach.

thank you butane
I think it is a really break thru for this board if we can look past macca who is after all gone and look at who and what remains

 

[yebiga]

Peter Gordon is a great litigator. He was president during 2014. I love the guys passion and effort he puts into the club.

But during 2014...

1. Our 1st round choice and loyal captain walked out of the club because he did not like the coach and could not get this message through to the administration. When he raised it/complained they tried to talk him around. He has walked out and not gone to a Hawthorn or Sydney. He chose GWS. A club that that still has a long way to go but sold him on the fact that it would be a better environment- Gordon/Administration failed.
2. Our 1st round choice and brown low medallist decided that his future was best served at another club. Did he go to Hawthorn or Sydney? No. Did he choose to go to North? No. He chose Essendon. A club that sold him on a better environment. - Gordon/Administration failed.
3. Our coach. A good man. Needed to be fired for not being a good coach or supported so he could be a good coach ended up having to resign. Gordon/Administration did not take full control of the situation. - Gordon/Administration failed.
4. We lost Griffen and gave up pick 6 for Boyd. Boyd can be anything but at the moment is close to nothing. We have gambled very heavily. If this was a casino night we have lost everything then borrowed against future earnings and put it all-in on one bet! You dont run businesses in such a manner. If you owned shares in businesses run this way you would be best advised to get your money out of there. - Gordon/Administration failed.

Now before everyone jumps on me. I hope and want Boyd to pay off in the biggest way possible (I can dream of him captaining the club in a GF). But meanwhile back on planet earth Gordon/Administration needs to seriously get its shyte together or we will lose a heap of players in the next 12 to 36 months.

We need much more than a coach. The underlying problems that resulted in this mess need to be highlighted and taken care of. The club is still run on a shoestring compared to other clubs. At the very least there needs to be some sort of facilitator that floats between the separate divisions of the club and is not afraid to speak up and get all issues sorted as they arise. We cant afford any f..kups let alone colossal sized f..kups going forward.

Alright!
Best post in this matter to date
This is a constructive and fair assessment
The situation we are in is serious and requires a mature and serious response and plan from the club hierarchy

the situation does not call for despair but mature action

We need confidence that whatever happened will never happen again

And we desperately need a coach who can lead us out of this mess

That Monty is even considered for the job gives me zero confidence
As assistant coach if macca failed he failed - he clearly also either misread the players or played macca for a fool

 

[maddog37]

Some recently feedback I was told about Macca.

Majority of the younger players did respect him yet a lot felt he was too strong in moulding everyone a certain way and taking a little bit of individuality and fun out of footy. Little things around a club all add up as I was told. You need to keep the fun at the club at all times.

I can see this from his media talks. You don't need a team of robots, yet need a group of individual who gel together as a team.

And this was evident in the way we were playing. No Joie de vivre.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Some recently feedback I was told about Macca.

Majority of the younger players did respect him yet a lot felt he was too strong in moulding everyone a certain way and taking a little bit of individuality and fun out of footy. Little things around a club all add up as I was told. You need to keep the fun at the club at all times.

I can see this from his media talks. You don't need a team of robots, yet need a group of individual who gel together as a team.

This was reflected on field as well.
People were having a go at me over the last few weeks for claiming that his coaching style was dour and took the creativity and flair out of the game, and the best example is Lachie Hunter - as a young 18yo first year player, the youngest player on an AFL list in 2013, he played with flair and creativity.
I can't help but think that the couple of missed set shots he had in round 1 this year set the entire tone for the year, the coaching telling him to work on his defensive game and removed any flair and creativity, causing him to have a poorer year as a 19yo than he did in his debut season - quite rare.

 

[stefoid]

Peter Gordon is a great litigator. He was president during 2014. I love the guys passion and effort he puts into the club.

But during 2014...

1. Our 1st round choice and loyal captain walked out of the club because he did not like the coach and could not get this message through to the administration. When he raised it/complained they tried to talk him around. He has walked out and not gone to a Hawthorn or Sydney. He chose GWS. A club that that still has a long way to go but sold him on the fact that it would be a better environment- Gordon/Administration failed.
2. Our 1st round choice and brown low medallist decided that his future was best served at another club. Did he go to Hawthorn or Sydney? No. Did he choose to go to North? No. He chose Essendon. A club that sold him on a better environment. - Gordon/Administration failed.
3. Our coach. A good man. Needed to be fired for not being a good coach or supported so he could be a good coach ended up having to resign. Gordon/Administration did not take full control of the situation. - Gordon/Administration failed.
4. We lost Griffen and gave up pick 6 for Boyd. Boyd can be anything but at the moment is close to nothing. We have gambled very heavily. If this was a casino night we have lost everything then borrowed against future earnings and put it all-in on one bet! You dont run businesses in such a manner. If you owned shares in businesses run this way you would be best advised to get your money out of there. - Gordon/Administration failed.

Now before everyone jumps on me. I hope and want Boyd to pay off in the biggest way possible (I can dream of him captaining the club in a GF). But meanwhile back on planet earth Gordon/Administration needs to seriously get its shyte together or we will lose a heap of players in the next 12 to 36 months.

We need much more than a coach. The underlying problems that resulted in this mess need to be highlighted and taken care of. The club is still run on a shoestring compared to other clubs. At the very least there needs to be some sort of facilitator that floats between the separate divisions of the club and is not afraid to speak up and get all issues sorted as they arise. We cant afford any f..kups let alone colossal sized f..kups going forward.

Not saying this is any more correct than your summary - both are conjecture.
1. Maybe Griffen didnt like the stress of being captain, was offered a lot of money (when totalled over length of contract) and saw GWS as closer to a premiership and having some blokes there he already knew, and simply jumped ship? Maybe poor aggrieved Grif was in fact simply serving his own best interests? I dont know the guy from a bar of soap, but lets not equate on field performance with character - great guys can be dud players and vice versa.
2. I think the club was shopping a 29yo player with a bung knee around for whatever they could get for list management reasons.
3. Agreed.
4. Griffen was gone - its a matter of what we could get for him. We all assumed pick 4 or thereabouts. So pick#4 and pick #6 for the best power forward, former pick #1 prospect going around in some time? Its around the mark, give or take. The real issue is not with the trade but the contract. Thats where the risk lies. Thats the con. But there are pros above and beyond his playing ability - there is prestige associated with landing a big fish like this that will pay off in many ways down the track. I agree its a big risk, but lets be frank: we are a small club, non-prestigious club surrounded by prestigious Melbourne clubs and interstate expansion clubs. If we want to make a difference, we have to be different. Do we wait for something lucky to happen, or to we try to make good stuff happen? Im OK with the risk and I like the long term groundwork that must have been going on for some time that enabled us to capitalize on an unexpected event.

 

[yebiga]

This was reflected on field as well.
People were having a go at me over the last few weeks for claiming that his coaching style was dour and took the creativity and flair out of the game, and the best example is Lachie Hunter - as a young 18yo first year player, the youngest player on an AFL list in 2013, he played with flair and creativity.
I can't help but think that the couple of missed set shots he had in round 1 this year set the entire tone for the year, the coaching telling him to work on his defensive game and removed any flair and creativity, causing him to have a poorer year as a 19yo than he did in his debut season - quite rare.

Actual not rare at all
Called 2 nd year blues

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

This was reflected on field as well.
People were having a go at me over the last few weeks for claiming that his coaching style was dour and took the creativity and flair out of the game, and the best example is Lachie Hunter - as a young 18yo first year player, the youngest player on an AFL list in 2013, he played with flair and creativity.
I can't help but think that the couple of missed set shots he had in round 1 this year set the entire tone for the year, the coaching telling him to work on his defensive game and removed any flair and creativity, causing him to have a poorer year as a 19yo than he did in his debut season - quite rare.

I tend to agree with you. Mitch Wallis was another, and Jack Macrae (not so much). Maybe others trying to toe the line could have done better.

 

[Mattdougie]

May I ponder a couple questions to thise that still think Macca should be in charge

1- Do u honestly think Macca would have turned out to be a very good coach? Not just an average coach a very good one.

2- Do you honestly think that the senior players were unhappy ONLY because Macca was blunt and honest?

3- Why did Maccca resign ? Now I think he got told to get out after what I have heard but if as many say why did he resig! In the end?

4- do you think he could have lead us to a GF? Because if we are cutting them ist to include only players that can take us to a GF wouldn't that include coaches that can do the same?

 

[paul scholes]

Unfortunately for McCartney is that the tipping point was breachedwith the amount of players discontented .
This would happen at any club, if truth be known.
I get a little tired of the thinking a player should be kept on what he's achieved previously. I.E Cooney .
It's just nonsense.
Gordon had an awful 24 hrs, but Griffen's childish carry on shouldn't go unnoticed either.
To say everything was fine and dandy then walk 2 days later isn't someone if decent character or any substance.

 

[yebiga]

May I ponder a couple questions to thise that still think Macca should be in charge

1- Do u honestly think Macca would have turned out to be a very good coach? Not just an average coach a very good one.

2- Do you honestly think that the senior players were unhappy ONLY because Macca was blunt and honest?

3- Why did Maccca resign ? Now I think he got told to get out after what I have heard but if as many say why did he resig! In the end?

4- do you think he could have lead us to a GF? Because if we are cutting them ist to include only players that can take us to a GF wouldn't that include coaches that can do the same?

1 yes
2 no when you play a list of 35 players - 26 players feel vulnerable to unhappy
Add those older players having pressure out on them - possibly deliberately to cash in draft chips and we simply as a club had to be on guard for exactly what happened - the entire club failed

3 he resigned because the circumstances demand unequivocal support of macca by the board for him to carry on - in short by not giving him that macca simply had to resign because he is a class act
4 premiership coach - I dont know but he desrved 2015 the club needed it
As far as I am concerned he did more than he needed to and we let him down
And I worry at the message and culture this has now created

 

[Butane]

May I ponder a couple questions to thise that still think Macca should be in charge

1- Do u honestly think Macca would have turned out to be a very good coach? Not just an average coach a very good one.

2- Do you honestly think that the senior players were unhappy ONLY because Macca was blunt and honest?

3- Why did Maccca resign ? Now I think he got told to get out after what I have heard but if as many say why did he resig! In the end?

4- do you think he could have lead us to a GF? Because if we are cutting them ist to include only players that can take us to a GF wouldn't that include coaches that can do the same?

Pro Macca reply.
1. Yes.
2. No, but those that left were generally considered to have poor resolve anyway and the team will be better for it.
3. He didn't resign and we all know that.
4. In time, yes.

Anti Macca reply.
1. No
2. No
3. Lost the players and admitted failure.
4. No.

 

[immortalmike]

This was reflected on field as well.
People were having a go at me over the last few weeks for claiming that his coaching style was dour and took the creativity and flair out of the game, and the best example is Lachie Hunter - as a young 18yo first year player, the youngest player on an AFL list in 2013, he played with flair and creativity.
I can't help but think that the couple of missed set shots he had in round 1 this year set the entire tone for the year, the coaching telling him to work on his defensive game and removed any flair and creativity, causing him to have a poorer year as a 19yo than he did in his debut season - quite rare.

That's crap. Second year blues happens all the bloody time.
Jake Stringer was dropped and even played in defence in order to work on his defensive game. He came back and kicked three or four goal of the year contenders.
Some players were too immature/dumb to play a such a balanced game. This is why they copped it. Macrae copped it publicly and respoded with an exemplary offensive and defensive game. This is called development. I have no doubt that Stringer and Macrae will end up more complete players thanks to this. Hunter on the other hand, unless he learns to take criticism on board may only ever end up a downward skier.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

That's crap. Second year blues happens all the bloody time.
Jake Stringer was dropped and even played in defence in order to work on his defensive game. He came back and kicked three or four goal of the year contenders.
Some players were too immature/dumb to play a such a balanced game. This is why they copped it. Macrae copped it publicly and respoded with an exemplary offensive and defensive game. This is called development. I have no doubt that Stringer and Macrae will end up more complete players thanks to this. Hunter on the other hand, unless he learns to take criticism on board may only ever end up a downward skier.

"Second year blues" is just a concept, without actually making a link to Hunter's drop in performance to anything..
McCartney - dour coach who emphasises contested ball, Hunter creative player with flair who is at odds with that coaching style.
An unproven concept or a direct reason as to why Hunter dropped in performance - I know which one I think is more likely.

 

[yebiga]

"Second year blues" is just a concept, without actually making a link to Hunter's drop in performance to anything..
McCartney - dour coach who emphasises contested ball, Hunter creative player with flair who is at odds with that coaching style.
An unproven concept or a direct reason as to why Hunter dropped in performance - I know which one I think is more likely.

stevie j needed some tough loving too
How many players when they retire tell you how it was the hard truths which helped them become the player they became?
This is so common it should nt need restating
Maybe that is the very best way to avoid hunter becoming another jones, hill, grant, Higgins ...