Leppa's third year.

[go you pups]

This is exactly how I see things too, lionbear. We're actually doing pretty well in terms of getting the ball in the middle of the ground - we're just not confident going forward.

I really think a KPF will have a pretty big impact on us - even if that player doesn't kick a heap of goals.

Sorry to butt in again

We had this exact problem under McCartney, I don't think it's solely a KPF problem, it's a spread problem. I think if you had more drive coming off half back from your defenders then it would help keep the forwards in better position instead of them running up the field trying to out number opposition to win the ball in midfield/defence then have to work twice as hard back forwards. Essendon did this to us on the weekend putting numbers behind the ball and it took us only a quarter to break them down and get on top.

Losing Docherty and Yeo who helped in this regard in 2013 hasn't helped while Golby hasn't came on since. Perhaps if Hanley went back again and broke the lines it could help your spread. Look at us we have Boyd, Murphy, Johannisen and Wood down there while Webb and Biggs have came in and done a job also, so we have options on top of our midfield spread. I see you guys are interested in Suckling, if you can cover a player like him defensively to let him go forward it would definitely help your attacking spread.

 

[a mayes ing]

Sorry to butt in again

We had this exact problem under McCartney, I don't think it's solely a KPF problem, it's a spread problem. I think if you had more drive coming off half back from your defenders then it would help keep the forwards in better position instead of them running up the field trying to out number opposition to win the ball in midfield/defence then have to work twice as hard back forwards. Essendon did this to us on the weekend putting numbers behind the ball and it took us only a quarter to break them down and get on top.

Losing Docherty and Yeo who helped in this regard in 2013 hasn't helped while Golby hasn't came on since. Perhaps if Hanley went back again and broke the lines it could help your spread. Look at us we have Boyd, Murphy, Johannisen and Wood down there while Webb and Biggs have came in and done a job also, so we have options on top of our midfield spread. I see you guys are interested in Suckling, if you can cover a player like him defensively to let him go forward it would definitely help your attacking spread.

I agree, this is why l want Cutler in the team. Is a very good user off half back and gets good drive by running off half back.

 

[go you pups]

I agree, this is why l want Cutler in the team. Is a very good user off half back and gets good drive by running off half back.

I liked what I saw in him last year, agreed there. I think you've thrown Mayes and Bewick down back at times also IIRC over the last 2 seasons, but they're more suited to half forward/wing roles (Bewick killed us last year, while Mayes was great in his first year taking the game on). Adcock used to be a gun rebounder but his numbers have declined also (I'd guess he doesn't have much else around than he used to?).

It's been a bit annoying not seeing you guys on free to air that much though, can only say I've listened to more radio calls than what's been on the TV for you guys this year, so there's a little bit of 2nd hand information I'm getting from that.

I do think though with another good offseason at the trade/draft table and an unscathed preseason could see much greater productivity next year. Stick with McStay, Close, Gardiner, Andrews, Clarke, Beasley etc and whatever tall kid you get at pick 1/2, they're who you need to fast track and get games into to build around your core group of older players like Martin, Rockliff, Hanley, Rich, Redden, Beams, Zorko, Christensen, Green etc.

 

[Harris Specter]

I look at the Dogs and find myself wishing that we played that exciting brand of footy that brings fans to the stadiums, not the slow gradual build up by chipping around on the halfback line and eventually turning it over trying a cute kick.

 

[James North]

I look at the Dogs and find myself wishing that we played that exciting brand of footy that brings fans to the stadiums, not the slow gradual build up by chipping around on the halfback line and eventually turning it over trying a cute kick.

We play exciting football too - against Port it was glorious.

The display you're referring too seems to be about plan C, I think.

 

[Harris Specter]

We play exciting football too - against Port it was glorious.

The display you're referring too seems to be about plan C, I think.

Yep, confidence has been sapped ever since I feel.

 

[notliondown]

So this year we're comparing ourselves to the Doggies? Cool no worries. It's just that last year it was Port and I wanted to make sure that I'm comparing our team to this years "out of the box, beating expectations, defying the rebuild model" flash in the pan team. Not really sure why we don't add West Coast in too because somehow they've shot from no where to be "contenders" as well.

I'm honestly not sure what the point of comparing ourselves, to what has so far has been little other than statistical anomalies, instead of the standard rebuild model proves? Port's form this year is far from convincing, and I'll hazard a bet the Doggies will be the same next year. West Coast too. And all of that simply ignores the fact our list was gutted, our draft talent pool the shallowest when we needed it most, and that we are simply 2-3 years behind where we should be because of somethings within our control and some not.

With a list incapable of realistically challenging for finals after it was decimated with injury, what would plan B really look like? It can't be a free flowing, open, fast game with no one to execute it surely?

We're playing a grinding, contested, pack marking, risk averse, defensive, ugly style of footy for 2 reasons to me. Firstly, we really don't have a choice. But secondly because, I have a feeling Leppa thinks winning requires knowing the ugly first - Just like Clarkson did with the Hawks in the mid 2000's and Dimma is doing with the Tigers.

Clarkson was almost sacked, his coaching questioned, and Hawthorn played ugly, uncompetitive football that looked remarkably similar to ours. I've heard him say since he thought he had no choice but to teach versatility, to show his players how to overcome diversity and to win ugly. Hawthorn after a few short years will be remembered as arguably a greater team than our own premiership one if it wins again.

So for those of you wanting a comparison, how about the Hawks. A team full of nobodies, with an untried coach, playing awful ugly footy. Sound familiar?

 

[a mayes ing]

So this year we're comparing ourselves to the Doggies? Cool no worries. It's just that last year it was Port and I wanted to make sure that I'm comparing our team to this years "out of the box, beating expectations, defying the rebuild model" flash in the pan team. Not really sure why we don't add West Coast in too because somehow they've shot from now where to be "contenders" as well.

I'm honestly not sure what the point of comparing ourselves, to what has so far has been little other than statistical anomalies, instead of the standard rebuild model proves? Port's form this year is far from convincing, and I'll hazard a bet the Doggies will be the same next year. West Coast too. And all of that simply ignores the fact our list was gutted, our draft talent pool the shallowest when we needed it most, and that we are simply 2-3 years behind where we should be because of somethings within our control and some not.

With a list incapable of realistically challenging for finals after it was decimated with injury, what would plan B really look like? It can't be a free flowing, open, fast game with no one to execute it surely?

We're playing a grinding, contested, pack marking, risk averse, defensive, ugly style of footy for 2 reasons to me. Firstly, we really don't have a choice. But secondly because, I have a feeling Leppa thinks winning requires knowing the ugly first - Just like Clarkson did with the Hawks in the mid 2000's and Dimma is doing with the Tigers.

Clarkson was almost sacked, his coaching questioned, and Hawthorn played ugly, uncompetitive football that looked remarkably similar to ours. I've heard him say since he thought he had no choice but to teach versatility, to show his players how to overcome diversity and to win ugly. Hawthorn after a few short years will be remembered as arguably a greater team than our own premiership one if it wins again.

So for those of you wanting a comparison, how about the Hawks. A team full of nobodies, with an untried coach, playing awful ugly footy. Sound familiar?

Nice post
Wasn't looking at the Hawks back then but if we are going to compare us to them, we need to see if our circumstances are similar to their.
Did they lose any quality players, 1st rounders? How many?
Were they in severe debt which makes the training grounds and admin facilities below pathetic?
Were their wholes in their list like ours?

 

[jackess]

We play exciting football too - against Port it was glorious.

The display you're referring too seems to be about plan C, I think.

Don't forget the first quarter against St Kilda.

 

[Experimental]

Clarkson was almost sacked, his coaching questioned

No he wasn't - that's a complete fabrication.

He came to the Hawks in 2005, moved on numerous older players and brought in a youth policy, yet still finished higher on the ladder than the previous year. Success was seen almost immediately without ever going backwards, and the rest is history. He was hired specifically with a long term rebuild in mind yet won a premiership four seasons later.

Unless you've confused Clarkson with Bomber at Geelong, who was nearly sacked before coaching the Cats to the flag later the following year.

Either way, it's in no way reminiscent of either club. Doesn't mean the Lions don't have potential, though. Just makes you wonder whether Leppa is the right bloke after three years at the helm.

 

[Eons]

Either way, it's in no way reminiscent of either club. Doesn't mean the Lions don't have potential, though. Just makes you wonder whether Leppa is the right bloke after three years at the helm.

This is only his second year.

 

[lukiuslion]

Sorry to butt in again

We had this exact problem under McCartney, I don't think it's solely a KPF problem, it's a spread problem. I think if you had more drive coming off half back from your defenders then it would help keep the forwards in better position instead of them running up the field trying to out number opposition to win the ball in midfield/defence then have to work twice as hard back forwards. Essendon did this to us on the weekend putting numbers behind the ball and it took us only a quarter to break them down and get on top.

Losing Docherty and Yeo who helped in this regard in 2013 hasn't helped while Golby hasn't came on since. Perhaps if Hanley went back again and broke the lines it could help your spread. Look at us we have Boyd, Murphy, Johannisen and Wood down there while Webb and Biggs have came in and done a job also, so we have options on top of our midfield spread. I see you guys are interested in Suckling, if you can cover a player like him defensively to let him go forward it would definitely help your attacking spread.

This is spot on. Yes, the key forward doesent help but we give our self no chance the way we set up. Just avoid 100 point floggings, just settle for 50-70 point loses.

 

[lukiuslion]

A lot of people point to Bomber Thompson as the example of 'persisting with a coach', however, his case in point is a little different. They did persist, but much more in the 'can he get us there because we are there abouts' kinder way (it would be like sacking Hardwick now), rather than the 'is he even capable?' way...

He took a team that had won 8 and 9 games in 98 and 99 and led them to 12 victories in 2000. He then had a drop off to 9 wins in 2009 (still far better than Hardwick and McCartney's first years) before mustering up an 11 win season the year after. There was then a significant drop off in 2003 to 7 wins - but then, there was a massive bump to 16 wins in 2004.

whilst he had his ups and downs, he was swinging from Finals, to just out of finals, to a drop to 7 wins.. to top 4.. to just outside the 8 - I dare say we would persist with that sort of coach ATM too.

Rarely, if ever - do you see a coach take over a team at re-build stage, who don't get that spike straight away (ala Hinkely, Beverage, voss) who instead have a string of really bad seasons to start with, and no obvious signs of improvement - who then 3-4 years later start to climb from the rubble and become a top 4 coach. By then they get sacked and someone comes in a reaps the rewards of their painful rebuild.

I want us to persist with Leppa but history would suggest unless he gets his 10 wins next season, that is how it will play out for him. Maybe we can buck the trend and say, nope - this is our ten year Guy and we are sticking with it, but it can be hard to maintain morale and relationships when the losers scaring builds up over time.

Someone mentioned persisting with Clarkson as an example on the TV - he went 5, 9, 14, flag! lol

As I mentioned earlier in this thread I think mentioning bomber and Clarkson is just re-writing history to suite ones needs. Bomber was more comparable to hardwick this season when the pressure came but with more finals appearances, he notched up 11 wins in his first season as coach and took them to a prelim before any pressure came.

And Clarkson.. Well, he might have been teaching and re-teaching all the new tricks in the world. But if he was Leppa he is on his way to a 9 win season this year, then onward an upward to 14 wins in his third year and flag in his 4th! Lol

Yes he took over a team needing a rebuild, but he re-built incredibly quickly and had almost instant results after one year at the helm, and the rest is history.

Neither are at all comparable to Leppas start, the only coach that is is McCartney, but he had more wins in his first 2 years.

 

[Eons]

As I mentioned earlier in this thread I think mentioning bomber and Clarkson is just re-writing history to suite ones needs. Bomber was more comparable to hardwick this season when the pressure came but with more finals appearances, he notched up 11 wins in his first season as coach and took them to a prelim before any pressure came.

And Clarkson.. Well, he might have been teaching and re-teaching all the new tricks in the world. But if he was Leppa he is on his way to a 9 win season this year, then onward an upward to 14 wins in his third year and flag in his 4th! Lol

Yes he took over a team needing a rebuild, but he re-built incredibly quickly and had almost instant results after one year at the helm, and the rest is history.

Neither are at all comparable to Leppas start, the only coach that is is McCartney, but he had more wins in his first 2 years.

If we had have remained relatively injury free there is every chance we would have won 9 games this year. If Clarko had have had as many injuries as us this year to key players there is no way he would have won 9 games.

Clarko had 5 wins in his first year, Leppa had 7. Fairly comparable based on the injuries we have had this year. I'm not saying we will end up as good as the Hawks but the comparison is not that far off.

 

[Ironmonger]

If we had have remained relatively injury free there is every chance we would have won 9 games this year. If Clarko had have had as many injuries as us this year to key players there is no way he would have won 9 games.

Clarko had 5 wins in his first year, Leppa had 7. Fairly comparable based on the injuries we have had this year. I'm not saying we will end up as good as the Hawks but the comparison is not that far off.

I don't believe that.

The Saints game is really the only one where I came away thinking our injuries were the difference. Possibly you could make a case for the Adelaide game too, but our injuries weren't that bad that week and the margin flattered us anyway.

Nine is a big stretch.

 

[Eons]

I don't believe that.

The Saints game is really the only one where I came away thinking our injuries were the difference. Possibly you could make a case for the Adelaide game too, but our injuries weren't that bad that week and the margin flattered us anyway.

Nine is a big stretch.

You don't have to

We have had no continuity at all this year with our injuries. Having a fit Hanley, Rocky, Freeman, Close and Merrett would have made a massive difference to our side. 2 of our best mids fit and firing and the others making a massive difference to our structure. Rich clearly isn't right, Redden either. 9 may be a stretch, no reason we wouldn't have won a few more games if we had our best team on the park for most of the year.

 

[Ironmonger]

You don't have to

We have had no continuity at all this year with our injuries. Having a fit Hanley, Rocky, Freeman, Close and Merrett would have made a massive difference to our side. 2 of our best mids fit and firing and the others making a massive difference to our structure. Rich clearly isn't right, Redden either. 9 may be a stretch, no reason we wouldn't have won a few more games if we had our best team on the park for most of the year.

Yeah, I've heard that argument a lot on this forum. I think it's overstated. Continuity and the impact of injuries are tests of the coach as much as they are excuses.

Anyway, a quick look at the records tells me Clarkson's Hawks won their last five games of his second season in charge, and went on to finish fifth the following year, so let's hope you're right about that comparison.

 

[Eons]

Yeah, I've heard that argument a lot on this forum. I think it's overstated. Continuity and the impact of injuries are tests of the coach as much as they are excuses.

Anyway, a quick look at the records tells me Clarkson's Hawks won their last five games of his second season in charge, and went on to finish fifth the following year, so let's hope you're right about that comparison.

I think it's critical for a young team to have their leaders/more experienced players on the park, unfortunately we haven't had that this year. IMO it's hard to build continuity when we have so many forced changes from week to week. The shining light from all this is we have got more games into the kids which will help us in the coming years.

Don't think we will be as good as the Hawks, excited to see how we go next year if we can get Dixon and stay relatively injury free.

 

[Experimental]

This is only his second year.

I know, I was referring to his three year contract though. He's not going anywhere at the end of this year, so his impact will have to be judged based on his whole three years.

 

[Fatcat08]

Would have been nice if Leppa had had two key forwards drafted to the club just after he started in the job with a nice shiny priority pick. Would be looking at over 100 extra goals next season

 

[notliondown]

Hawthorn won 4 games in 2004.

Clarkson won 5 in 2005.

Nice post
Wasn't looking at the Hawks back then but if we are going to compare us to them, we need to see if our circumstances are similar to their.
Did they lose any quality players, 1st rounders? How many?
Were they in severe debt which makes the training grounds and admin facilities below pathetic?
Were their wholes in their list like ours?

Clarkson saw 700 games of experience leave in 2005 as Hawthorn embarked on a rebuild, either through choice, trades or delisting.

In 2006 they moved their training and admin to Waverly Park (Ricoh centre - and are about to leave) - but it had just been completely refurbished. Their membership was stagnant in 2005,6 being down on previous years at approx 29k - less than half of recent years.

While never making a loss, 2005 saw Hawthorn only make a $90k profit - the lowest since 97 and followed 2 other very poor years. 2014 saw Hawthorn post a $3.4m profit.


Yes you can argue there were differences, mainly to the extent of the issues, but for a Vic based club there are a hell of a lot of similarities too.

 

[notliondown]

No he wasn't - that's a complete fabrication.

He came to the Hawks in 2005, moved on numerous older players and brought in a youth policy, yet still finished higher on the ladder than the previous year. Success was seen almost immediately without ever going backwards, and the rest is history. He was hired specifically with a long term rebuild in mind yet won a premiership four seasons later.

Unless you've confused Clarkson with Bomber at Geelong, who was nearly sacked before coaching the Cats to the flag later the following year.

Either way, it's in no way reminiscent of either club. Doesn't mean the Lions don't have potential, though. Just makes you wonder whether Leppa is the right bloke after three years at the helm.

Well perhaps you might like to talk to the man himself who spoke about it only a few weeks ago. While he may never have been formally tapped on the shoulder, he said many at the club questioned him and disagreed very strongly with his style and direction during those first years and he intimated that unless things changed he thought his time was up.

In 2005 they won 5 games.
In the middle of 2006 they lost 12 of the middle 13 rounds.

Clarkson was under pressure - just like Leppa.

 

[notliondown]

As I mentioned earlier in this thread I think mentioning bomber and Clarkson is just re-writing history to suite ones needs. Bomber was more comparable to hardwick this season when the pressure came but with more finals appearances, he notched up 11 wins in his first season as coach and took them to a prelim before any pressure came.

And Clarkson.. Well, he might have been teaching and re-teaching all the new tricks in the world. But if he was Leppa he is on his way to a 9 win season this year, then onward an upward to 14 wins in his third year and flag in his 4th! Lol

Yes he took over a team needing a rebuild, but he re-built incredibly quickly and had almost instant results after one year at the helm, and the rest is history.

Neither are at all comparable to Leppas start, the only coach that is is McCartney, but he had more wins in his first 2 years.

In 2004 in a draft where they got picks 2,5 & 7 Hawthorn took Franklin, Roughead & Lewis. Where are our round 1 multiple picks?

Luke Hodge was a former no 1 draft pick who came of age in 2005. Where's our number 1 draft pick?

Everitt and Coad become all Australian in a team that wins 9 games for the year.

Like it or not, Hawthorn probably had better bones on which to rebuild, and didnt get shafted with compromised drafts. As for instant results... well 2009 saw the Hawks only win 9 again, so even as dominant at they are, sh*t happens in footy sometimes too.

Clarskon is a wizard at making the most of what he's got. Probably the quickest thinker and adapter currently influencing the game. But he got lucky at times too.

I'm pretty sure Leppa would like half his luck right now.

 

[jackess]

I don't get the comparisons being made here.

 

[Lace Out]

If we can win 8-10 next season and make the finals 2017,Leppa could be coach for 10 years