List Mgmt. List planning 2015 and onwards

[raman]

If Trengove wants his footy career to hit the heights it should, he needs to worry more about playing his role for the team and a bit less about his clothing line. He's such a damaging player as a 2nd ruck that it's a shame to limit himself to being simply a pretty good backman.

LOL yes. This "but Trengove doesn't like playing in the ruck" refrain is baffling. He doesn't get the last call on his role in the team, and if he does, we have big problems.

 

[Wargreymon90]

Trengove is a team first player. Whilst his preference is not to ruck. I'm certain that he would do it if it makes us a better team

 

[El_Scorcho]

LOL yes. This "but Trengove doesn't like playing in the ruck" refrain is baffling. He doesn't get the last call on his role in the team, and if he does, we have big problems.

I'm only calling it because that's how it's been reported.

In 2014 he averaged 5 hitouts and a clearance a game. In 2015, 1 hitout and 0 clearances.

We miss him in there. I can't understand how it could possibly be a coaching directive.

 

[TimmyD11]

Kangaroos play Goldstein as lone ruckman for 95% of the game and only have Daw and Currie as back up. Adelaide are even worse as they only have Jacobs with first year O'Brien or unproven Lowden as back up. If the lone ruckman is good enough they can play solo with great effect and I don't think it's any coincidence that Lobbe's best season is the year he rucked his heart out as solo ruckman as it means you have much more continuity through out a game. Obviously if your key ruck goes down injured like with GWS and Mumford then you're in a bit of strife. GWS had two or three up and coming rucks that filled in admirably, but not exactly ideal if you're hoping for a genuine premiership challenge. West Coast play two rucks and have a third in the twos, Hawks also play two genuine rucks with a third in the twos and these were the two grand finalists. What did we have when we won the premiership? Brogan and Lade with Primus injured, the exact same set up, so you could take the view that two rucks have been better than one this year and for us in the past and with no sub it will be even more so next year.

The Lobbe-Ryder combination worked against Hawks which was the first game together, it then worked the following week in the showdown. It didn't work much there after, but it didn't help that Ryder was out for a month. Having said that Lobbe's form solo didn't hit anywhere near the heights of 2014. The decision that has to be made is whether the intangible influence Lobbe has such as Leadership, driving team work ethics and being such an integral part of the team out-weight the possibility or probability that his selection and performance on field may not be the absolutely maximum potential of the team, who would benefit more from having an additional runner since the addition of Dixon. Essentially Dixon has taken Lobbe's spot. My view is the team would be better balanced if Dixon, Schulz & Trengove are all fit to not also have Lobbe play as his inclusion would push Ryder forward which makes us pretty top heavy up forward even if Westhoff roams and plays further up the ground. However when I was thinking about Schulz when he was considering leaving I thought that it would be a shame if we won a premiership next year without Schulz given his efforts over the years and I would feel the same about Lobbe. Lobbe is the definition of the heart and soul of the playing group, he's notorious for his extras and fantastic work ethic which is fantastic for driving standards within the playing group. Ken has said he loves his leadership and direction through out games and the fact Ken loves him so much speaks volumes to the character of Lobbe. This is massive when considering trading him in my opinion.

I reckon the Lobbe-Ryder combo can work a lot better if we give it another year with a full pre-season together and under the new rules and make a decision at the end of the year. If Lobbe struggles for form then we can still trade him for decent currency at the end of next year. I have enough respect for the character, leadership and hard work that Lobbe shows and the presence he has in the playing group to give him another year. Sure we might only get a second round pick next year but that's still enough to give a man of great character and standing in our club another chance. We're willing to consider Bennell who is a complete flog in terms of character purely because of ability, sometimes trying hard isn't enough I agree but also getting in players of talent but no character can be poison to the playing group. Furthermore there is no way Schulz, Dixon and Trengove will play all games next year, they will all probably play 18 games each. Have a look at Hawks, they used their Buddy pick and a fringe player to get McEvoy who has played 10 games in the two years at the club in the VFL and Will Langford who tore the finals apart last year barely got a look this year. The best teams have damn good players in their second teams not just young players. Do you think big Benny McEvoy would give two shits he's had to play 4-6 games in the VFL both years when going to collect his premiership medals? This is the exact same position I see us in. Lobbe, Schulz, Dixon and Trengove to play around 18 games each, Lobbe comes in if one of these players aren't available or if Ryder is injured but can also fit in if we only play 3 of Jacko, Bobby, Jonas, O'Shea or Hombsch as we can swing Westhoff into defense more. So come round 20-23 based on performance we pick our best set up coming into finals and I think there is every chance Lobbe will play a lot better next year.

Whilst we'd get best currency for Lobbe now, he is held in too high regard and adds far too much more other than onfield performance to trade him this year given that we will need him for half the games anyway and this is Matthew Lobbe, he's a proud man who will bust an absolute gut to better himself and work for the team, you want players like him in the playing group and I think if you sat him down and showed him how the Hawks do it he's big enough and team orientated enough to give Kenny a nod and say I'll go back and smash the SANFL when you need me to Ken and I'll give the boys great leadership there and equip himself brilliantly. This will show the rest of the group how its done and Ken will be able to use this example as motivation to the likes of Monfries, Jonas, Carlile, White or even Broadbent who are in the experienced bracket who could use a week or two in the SANFL at stages if their struggling for form, instead of what we got this season when Ken couldn't bring himself to drop these guys until far too late (Mainly talking about Jonas.) Jonas and Monfries showed that it's not a bad thing to have a week in the SANFL for confidence and if we have 25-6 players to pick from why not rotate, it shouldn't be seen as losing faith in your ability to go back to the Maggies. I think Beveridge and the Bulldogs were the best example of this, but again Hawks do it brilliantly as well.

 

[scottjr]

On the other hand Jacko is getting off fairly lightly in trade talk so far. Jacko to West Coast for their first pick and Lycett?

 

[KenOath]

A few people seem to be overestimating the importance of having an A-grade second ruck. The key to a second ruck is that they are serviceable around stoppages but most importantly that they have the ability to offer something else, generally a marking target up forward. This is where Lobbe struggles to be a second ruck. Ryder is clearly number 1, and yes he may get injured or a WADA ban but you can't list manage for every possible negative outcome, the fact is that at this moment he is clearly our number 1 ruck and available to play next year.

The issue then becomes what type of player do we want as a second ruck? Just looking at the top 6 teams from this year their second rucks in finals from memory were:

• Hawks - Hale
• Eagles - Sinclair
• Freo - Griffen
• North - Brown
• Crows - Jenkins
• Swans - Tippett

A look at those names should hopefully give people some perspective. None of them are great ruckman but they are generally serviceable and offer something up forward.

I like Lobbe and think he is a good first ruck BUT he is not a good second ruck and Ryder is a better first ruck. Therefore if we could get a first round pick for Lobbe and add a more mobile second ruck who can also play another role then that would be smart list management. A mature depth ruck on the rookie list would then provide some cover if Ryder is injured/banned. But it is crazy to think that we can maintain multiple A-grade ruckmen on our list just in case!

 

[Chrizzt]

Kangaroos play Goldstein...

Mate... War and Peace is a less intimidating read than that post.
A TL;DR? wouldn't go astray.

 

[Macca19]

Kangaroos play Goldstein as lone ruckman for 95% of the game and only have Daw and Currie as back up. Adelaide are even worse as they only have Jacobs with first year O'Brien or unproven Lowden as back up.

Adelaide have Jenkins as their backup ruck and he does a pretty good job. Likewise, Ben Brown does the chop out for North and does a reasonable job.

 

[charcolechaddy]

If Trengove wants his footy career to hit the heights it should, he needs to worry more about playing his role for the team and a bit less about his clothing line. He's such a damaging player as a 2nd ruck that it's a shame to limit himself to being simply a pretty good backman.

What's wrong with having a interest out side of football?

Do you want their social pages to be only about football?

 

[charcolechaddy]

A few people seem to be overestimating the importance of having an A-grade second ruck. The key to a second ruck is that they are serviceable around stoppages but most importantly that they have the ability to offer something else, generally a marking target up forward. This is where Lobbe struggles to be a second ruck. Ryder is clearly number 1, and yes he may get injured or a WADA ban but you can't list manage for every possible negative outcome, the fact is that at this moment he is clearly our number 1 ruck and available to play next year.

The issue then becomes what type of player do we want as a second ruck? Just looking at the top 6 teams from this year their second rucks in finals from memory were:

• Hawks - Hale
• Eagles - Sinclair
• Freo - Griffen
• North - Brown
• Crows - Jenkins
• Swans - Tippett

A look at those names should hopefully give people some perspective. None of them are great ruckman but they are generally serviceable and offer something up forward.

I like Lobbe and think he is a good first ruck BUT he is not a good second ruck and Ryder is a better first ruck. Therefore if we could get a first round pick for Lobbe and add a more mobile second ruck who can also play another role then that would be smart list management. A mature depth ruck on the rookie list would then provide some cover if Ryder is injured/banned. But it is crazy to think that we can maintain multiple A-grade ruckmen on our list just in case!

All those guys have a upside, Tippett played his best footy in ruck, Jacobs is no better than Westie or Jacko in ruck the rest are predominantly ruckmen (bar Brown never noticed his ruck work) .

Our biggest issue with Lobbe is getting him to mark the ball, if he can't do this he becomes a liability.

 

[Hong-Kong Phooey]

I think I'm in the trade lobbe group cos prior to 2014 I saw nothing in him at all. In 2014 he surprised me, but in 2015 the memories were too fresh and I was back to seeing nothing. If we can get pick 12 we take it and run. He has had one good year only. That's a great return

 

[Holden Hillbilly]

In 2016 there will be no sub rule and more teams will have a 2nd ruck who can play forward rather than forwards who can ruck a bit.

 

[TimmyD11]

Adelaide have Jenkins as their backup ruck and he does a pretty good job. Likewise, Ben Brown does the chop out for North and does a reasonable job.

Yeah of course they do as second rucks within the best 22, but if Goldy and Jacobs went down you wouldn't want them as your first rucks in the same way Jacko is good for a cop out but we'd have to be desperate to play him as our no.1 if Ryder was to go down.

 

[TimmyD11]

Take Sammy Gray and Butch as examples of how perceptions can change massively so quickly. Everyone bar those two absolute die-hard supporters had both stone wall delistings two months out from the end of the season. Gray was as average as it gets as a small half forward, gets given a chance with more opportunity in midfield and shone, all of a sudden he's a lock in the 22 for next season. He isn't; Polec and Wines back in means he won't get the opportunity he got at the end of the year so we have to hope that form backs up because Lobbe's form didn't when he didn't have the same continuity of playing in one role all game, so why are we so confident Gray's will. Funny how perspectives are heightened or lowered so much more than they shouldn't be. I like everyone loves to dream about what we can get for Lobbe but he's a massive part of the team and there is no better person to drive standards and show the rest of the group he'll work harder and harder until he gets back to where he was in 2014. I'll back him in for a good year and show the faith back to the club for not trading him.

 

[shewho]

Having Lobbe as a second ruck is a luxury we can't afford while Wines, Wingard and Hartlett are unsigned for 2017. Having Frampton (or Redden) as our first ruck if something happens to Ryder, is a hole we can't afford. That is our dilemma.

There are 3 solutions-

1. Downgrade Lobbe- trade him out and trade in a ruck man that is cheaper i.e. Lycett, Gorringe, Maric

2. Keep Lobbe for one more year then when the WADA cloud is gone, trade him

3. Made the Lobbe/Ryder combo work

Ken will go with option 3 unless Lobbe wants out. That gives him one more year to try to make the 2 ruck combo work. The question is, how long does he persist with it if it doesn't work?

If Lobbe wants to save his Port career and if the Ryder/Lobbe combination is to work, Lobbe has to become a nuisance to opposition in our forward line. He has to take contested marks up forward or at least make contests and lay tackles in our forward 50. If we can teach Lobbe to catch and Butcher to kick we would improve by 50% overnight.

 

[Phhht]

If Lobbe wants to save his Port career and if the Ryder/Lobbe combination is to work, Lobbe has to become a nuisance to opposition in our forward line. He has to take contested marks up forward or at least make contests and lay tackles in our forward 50. If we can teach Lobbe to catch and Butcher to kick we would improve by 50% overnight.

I'd settle for Lobbe to begin taking marks ANYWHERE on the ground. Contested or uncontested.

 

[Hong-Kong Phooey]

Having Lobbe as a second ruck is a luxury we can't afford while Wines, Wingard and Hartlett are unsigned for 2017. Having Frampton (or Redden) as our first ruck if something happens to Ryder, is a hole we can't afford. That is our dilemma.

There are 3 solutions-

1. Downgrade Lobbe- trade him out and trade in a ruck man that is cheaper i.e. Lycett, Gorringe, Maric

2. Keep Lobbe for one more year then when the WADA cloud is gone, trade him

3. Made the Lobbe/Ryder combo work

Ken will go with option 3 unless Lobbe wants out. That gives him one more year to try to make the 2 ruck combo work. The question is, how long does he persist with it if it doesn't work?

If Lobbe wants to save his Port career and if the Ryder/Lobbe combination is to work, Lobbe has to become a nuisance to opposition in our forward line. He has to take contested marks up forward or at least make contests and lay tackles in our forward 50. If we can teach Lobbe to catch and Butcher to kick we would improve by 50% overnight.

There is a pleasant surprise waiting for you in the news today

 

[PatientMental]

In 2016 there will be no sub rule and more teams will have a 2nd ruck who can play forward rather than forwards who can ruck a bit.

They'd just add another midfielder. Less rotations means a need for more hard runners.

 

[charcolechaddy]

There is a pleasant surprise waiting for you in the news today

Hammer time!http://m.portadelaidefc.com.au/news/2015-10-07/hartlett-signs-bigtime-contract-extension

 

[Ford Fairlane]

Do not trade with Hawthorn. They have Jedi mind powers.

 

[Hong-Kong Phooey]

After renouf I believe you

 

[RossFC]

Do not trade with Hawthorn. They have Jedi mind powers.

Pittard, Renouf, Lonie and Moore for Burgoyne, Birchall and Hill seems like a loss for us.

 

[Coobk001]

Having Lobbe as a second ruck is a luxury we can't afford while Wines and Wingard are unsigned for 2017.

This isn't true

 

[Coobk001]

They'd just add another midfielder. Less rotations means a need for more hard runners.

Yes, more runners ON THE GROUND, but you're missing the fact that the limit means you can't actually use all 4 bench players in a constant rotation. So instead the opposite will occur in that it'll be more like the old days where a ruckman could rest on the bench. Lobbe would play 60% ruck, Ryder 60% forward, 40% ruck, Lobbe 40% on bench.

Ultimately there is a reason why Richmond want a quality 2nd ruck, it's because they'll be crucial next year and as such we'd be incredibly silly to get rid of ours.

 

[Phhht]

The opposite. You can't use all the rotations and the bench all the time given the limit. As such it'll be more like the old days where a ruckman could rest on the bench. Lobbe would play 60% ruck, Ryder 60% forward, 40% ruck, Lobbe 40% on bench.

Which kinda negates his biggest playing asset, endurance. There is no way around the fact that we simply need Lobbe to become more involved in general gameplay (marks, linkup disposals) to be an effective 2 man ruck combo with Paddy. Sitting him on the bench for 40% of a game isnt an efficient outcome IMO.