Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records
- Thread starter Supermercado
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Well all players got premiership medallions that night, which is what you may mean by trophy. Baggott named best in a GF and Final isn't a Best and Fairest of the year. There was no 1932 B + F named until 1988, when several additional B+F winners were added to club records.
I'll see if he can repost it, then I'll link to it. I seem to recall it had Collingwood FC written on it, so it may have come from the club itself.
- Sep 19, 2006
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- 50,688
- AFL Club
- North Melbourne
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- Rotor Volgograd, The Exers
Actually the argus report refers to trophies not medallions, 19 January1933 , the Argus. Again I always go to the source materials. Looking at record Vic thorp is named as the 1917 and 24 band f. And the record names jack dyer as the 32 b and f . There is something very odd in the reports of that year.....
So as not to keep clogging up this thread and to allow others to pst their 'inaccuracies', I've DMed you to continue the discussion.
Yes I did. This is what I discovered:
\1969|Bendigo|Goulburn Valley 6, Waranga East 6
\1970|Bendigo|Ovens and Murray 2
\1971|Bendigo|Ballarat 1, Sunraysia 7
\1972|North Central|Wimmera 7
\1977|Bendigo|Latrobe Valley 6
\1978|Bendigo|Ballarat 11, Latrobe Valley 3, Hampden 3
\1979|Bendigo|Hampden 4, Western Border 4, Wimmera 8, Latrobe Valley 6
\1980|Bendigo|South West Districts (NSW) 10, A.C.T. 5, Northern District 4, Latrobe Valley 0
\1981|North Central|Sunraysia 6, A.C.T. 6
\1983|Bendigo|Riverina 5, Ovens and Murray 6
\ Totals | 22 games | 116 goals (5.27 average)
Best played in the North Central League for Charlton in 1972 and for Boort in 1981. His appearances against A.C.T. in 1980 and 1981 were when representing the Victorian Country Football League.
Mero
Norm Smith Medallist
North Historian, Father Gerard Dowling has done a lot of research into the Shinboner name and believes is derives from the Irish Hurling players who played on Arden St on Sundays.
Opposition crowds would complain about the roughhouse tactics of the North players by suggesting they were Irish Hurling players arrived one day too early for their game.
North took this name as their own, in the same way South were ridiculed as the Swans for having so many West Australians in their team.
What is odd, when researching trove, the first few articles that have shinboners in them are from people referencing North as shinboners, not North people calling there own team shinboners.
It appears in the early days there is probably more chance of opposition supporters calling North shinboners than North supporters.
The name is now proudly bandied about by North fans, but i wonder if that was always the case, it's possible the nickname was actually thought up by opposition fans.
I think the term goes way back earlier than 1935/36 ( newspaper report) for describing North, ..... hurling, abattoirs, Irish poor, slums may all have had something to do with it.
The other 2 references to shinboners that i posted from the trove links earlier in this thread relate to around 1916 in WA with a bloke sarcastically referring to himself as ....(O'Kelli not a shinboner) obviously a Irish name and the article is written by someone pretending to be illiterate.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/165446687?searchTerm=shin-boner&searchLimits=
The other reference is actually a football team around Moama/Echuca called the Shinboners, they were called the Shinboners because they were from a part of the river called shinbone alley, shinbone alley was a collection of shacks renowned for poor people, travellors, swaggies, gypsies etc.
there is actually a few references to this team around 1901
http://192.102.239.158/ndp/del/article/115026524?searchTerm=shinboner&searchLimits=
IMO all the references to shinboner have a link, they all revolve around hard times, poverty, uneducated etc.
I have no doubt NM was called the shinboners before the mid 1930's
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/165446687?searchTerm=shin-boner&searchLimits=
The other reference is actually a football team around Moama/Echuca called the Shinboners, they were called the Shinboners because they were from a part of the river called shinbone alley, shinbone alley was a collection of shacks renowned for poor people, travellors, swaggies, gypsies etc.
there is actually a few references to this team around 1901
http://192.102.239.158/ndp/del/article/115026524?searchTerm=shinboner&searchLimits=
IMO all the references to shinboner have a link, they all revolve around hard times, poverty, uneducated etc.
I have no doubt NM was called the shinboners before the mid 1930's
- Sep 19, 2006
- 48,113
- 50,688
- AFL Club
- North Melbourne
- Other Teams
- Rotor Volgograd, The Exers
Go and look at the number of time the word "n-----r" was used pre 1940 (from recollection it is over 100,000 times)and compare it to the number of times the word "shinboner" is used. Most people who have researched the issue put it no higher than a supposition, which is correct.
the word you mention was used in a variety of ways, the word shinboner wasn't
Can you find the actual saying .... blood stained iggers in trove in relation to Essendon FC , because if we can't then obviously it is a fictional creation ?.
I think we should keep in mind too that there are still only a minority of "football papers" on Trove yet...minimal Age, no Sporting Globe, no Herald, no Sun...any number of shorter run titles absent too for both 19thC and 20thC.
Even so, I've just searched Trove for the word "bloodstained" or the phrase "blood stained" combined with the word Essendon, and there wasn't any entry which included both terms in reference to the Football Club.
As an increasing amount of text becomes available online (e.g. book, journal & poetry) a check of non-football sources would be worthwhile as well as those we've been covering.
I suppose a number of you realise that the early VFA premierships (1877 up to about 1884-5-6) were only awarded by the press, i.e. not officially given by VFA admin ? In recent months I came across a committee meeting where debate features the very subject. Will try and track down and post link for wider distribution.
Checked myself, no blood stained.
The very first mention of Shinboners in reference to North Melbourne was by a supporter of Williamstown VFA team. ( 1936 ), that's odd IMO.
I think the hurling suggestion and/also the abattoir suggestion makes far more sense than a game in 1933 ( suggestion by royals 1922).
I also note that the Hotham hurling club played at Arden Street before the North Melbourne FC did, they had their own ground with a 6 foot picket fence around it.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/art...ub granted land&searchLimits=l-state=Victoria
I would also point out hurlers and shin injuries go hand in hand.
North Melbourne FC had a history of rough unruly supporters, early football had a history of hacking ( shin kicking ), my guess would be the Hurlers from North Melbourne were rougher, working class type compared to the Hurlers from ( for EX) the Melbourne Hurling club.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/art...ub granted land&searchLimits=l-state=Victoria
I would also point out hurlers and shin injuries go hand in hand.
North Melbourne FC had a history of rough unruly supporters, early football had a history of hacking ( shin kicking ), my guess would be the Hurlers from North Melbourne were rougher, working class type compared to the Hurlers from ( for EX) the Melbourne Hurling club.
Supermercado
The straw that stirs the drink
- Thread starter
- #67
What about players under assumed names. How did we arrive at the players who were officially credited with the game?
For instance in its report on the Round 1, 1897 Melbourne vs South Melbourne game the Emerald Hill Record gives a team lineup (http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/108482390) that leaves out Melbourne's full-forward line. This means four players are not included - Bill McCulloch, George Johnstone, Edwin Jenkyn and Charlie Young - but a "Williams" is named in the followers in quotation marks.
'Williams' is also shown as playing the next week but George Johnsone wasn't in the side so it has to be one of the other three, and as Charlie Young seems to have been a centreman rather than a 'follower' that narrows it down to McCulloch or Jenkyn - and it seems from an article later in the year that it was McCulloch as it mentions that he played under an assumed name earlier that year (http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/139742813).
The question is - why was he playing under an assumed name? The Australasian doesn't suggest anything dodgy was up. Not sure why they would have had to get into subterfuge given that he had already played with the club in 1895 and 1896.
For instance in its report on the Round 1, 1897 Melbourne vs South Melbourne game the Emerald Hill Record gives a team lineup (http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/108482390) that leaves out Melbourne's full-forward line. This means four players are not included - Bill McCulloch, George Johnstone, Edwin Jenkyn and Charlie Young - but a "Williams" is named in the followers in quotation marks.
'Williams' is also shown as playing the next week but George Johnsone wasn't in the side so it has to be one of the other three, and as Charlie Young seems to have been a centreman rather than a 'follower' that narrows it down to McCulloch or Jenkyn - and it seems from an article later in the year that it was McCulloch as it mentions that he played under an assumed name earlier that year (http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/139742813).
The question is - why was he playing under an assumed name? The Australasian doesn't suggest anything dodgy was up. Not sure why they would have had to get into subterfuge given that he had already played with the club in 1895 and 1896.
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That's a very interesting read. I have no idea why he played under an assumed name.
I will say that it has also been written in previous books that Vic Thorp played under the assumed name of R. Sharp for 1 game.
I still for the life of me can't find any contemporary report of this .
Supermercado
The straw that stirs the drink
- Thread starter
- #69
I've seen mention of another player who was a serving policeman and the rozzers wouldn't let him play for some reason so he showed up on Saturday under a fake name until they changed their mind.
That is what happened to early Collingwood great Bill Proudfoot, but it was in 1903-04.
http://www.au.timeout.com/melbourne/sports/features/2435/bourne-identity-16-constable-proudfoot
The deteriorating reputation of the game prompted Chief Commissioner O’Callaghan to ban members of the police force from participating. Proudfoot defied the edict and played in the 1903 and 1904 seasons under the fictitious name of Wilson. His superiors were seemingly oblivious until a notorious Collingwood criminal informed the Chief Commissioner by mail and Proudfoot was thus warned that any further breaches would end in his dismissal. Eventually Commissioner O’Callaghan had a change of heart and authorised him to play the game he loved.
1931 Obituary if interested ....
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/74576739
At the end of his obituary it mentions a son .... Gordon, my guess would be that this Gordon Proudfoot may be his grandson ...
http://australianfootball.com/players/player/Gordon+Proudfoot/8400
It's certainly possible, however Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers says only "Ex-Frankston" of Gordon Proudfoot. Of Alec Proudfoot (St Kilda and Melbourne) it has "A nephew of Billy Proudfoot."
Just an unusual surname, actually know of a Proudfoot here in Perth who claims somewhere along the line they are related.
Supermercado
The straw that stirs the drink
- Thread starter
- #74
Thanks for that, it goes from informative to genius when it turns out a crim lagged him out.
I am willing to bet that the term Shinboners relates to the hurlers who played at Arden Street, they had their own ground with a 6 ft fence around it.
I imagine, more than football, hurling is a pretty dangerous game for shins
From reading some trove reports i think at one stage the Arden St ground was the center of hurling in Melbourne.
