Not sure he'd be considered garbage, coz he's a very good player, but I agree that if you take away the team that delivers the last day of September and he'd be regarded pretty differently as a player.
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Luke Hodge v Chris Judd
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Not sure he'd be considered garbage, coz he's a very good player, but I agree that if you take away the team that delivers the last day of September and he'd be regarded pretty differently as a player.
Hawks supporters are just taking the piss so just relax everyone.
For what it is worth, Hodge has been the better player for the majority of the time since 2007. No doubt Judd had a few extremely good years at WCE but upon arriving at Carlton he was not as good a player. Still very good but clearly not a world beater anymore.
Two very different players so it is hard to compare them directly but I'll put this to everyone. Judd was an excellent player who was amazing at winning contested ball and breaking away from the pack with speed. But no team changed the way they played the game just to combat Judd. They either played a tagger on him or played someone on him who would run hard forward and try to expose him.
When Hodge went from midfield to defence in 2008 he transformed a team from promising to premiers. Geelong could not find a way around him consistently in that game. Teams actually changed the way they structured their forward line and entered forward 50 to combat Hawthorn in subsequent years.
Hodge was All Australian on the HBF and in the Centre. That is two positions he was consider best in the league in that particular year. Hodge won a Norm Smith playing in defence and a second Norm Smith playing HFF/Centre. He is the best wherever he plays on the field. In 2010 he was even forced to play Ruck in one game such is his ability to compete against the odds. And his leadership is worth goals to Hawthorn and should not be discounted. To understand what the player that is Hodge does to our team by being versatile and competitive all over the field has meant Hawthorn has been able to change the look of our midfield from minute to minute. IT meant instead of having a very slow midfield of Mitchell, Sewell, Lewis and Hodge, we were able to pull Hodge out and play quicker players in his place without having to stick him on the bench or hide him. Equally if one of the other mids has a bad day he can go into the midfield and change the game. That is more matches won by Hawthorn because of the player Hodge is and what he does for the team than just having a very good player who is only able to play one position. If you stop thinking about Hodge as a midfielder and start realising that he is a utility you might understand why Hawthorn regard him as a future Hall of fame player. He is without doubt the best utility of the AFL era.
Two very different players so it is hard to compare them directly but I'll put this to everyone. Judd was an excellent player who was amazing at winning contested ball and breaking away from the pack with speed. But no team changed the way they played the game just to combat Judd. They either played a tagger on him or played someone on him who would run hard forward and try to expose him.
When Hodge went from midfield to defence in 2008 he transformed a team from promising to premiers. Geelong could not find a way around him consistently in that game. Teams actually changed the way they structured their forward line and entered forward 50 to combat Hawthorn in subsequent years.
Hodge was All Australian on the HBF and in the Centre. That is two positions he was consider best in the league in that particular year. Hodge won a Norm Smith playing in defence and a second Norm Smith playing HFF/Centre. He is the best wherever he plays on the field. In 2010 he was even forced to play Ruck in one game such is his ability to compete against the odds. And his leadership is worth goals to Hawthorn and should not be discounted. To understand what the player that is Hodge does to our team by being versatile and competitive all over the field has meant Hawthorn has been able to change the look of our midfield from minute to minute. IT meant instead of having a very slow midfield of Mitchell, Sewell, Lewis and Hodge, we were able to pull Hodge out and play quicker players in his place without having to stick him on the bench or hide him. Equally if one of the other mids has a bad day he can go into the midfield and change the game. That is more matches won by Hawthorn because of the player Hodge is and what he does for the team than just having a very good player who is only able to play one position. If you stop thinking about Hodge as a midfielder and start realising that he is a utility you might understand why Hawthorn regard him as a future Hall of fame player. He is without doubt the best utility of the AFL era.
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Bullshit
Judd has ALWAYS been the better player
Hodge is a good player on a great team
Always has been, always will be
Judd was a great player on mediocre teams at Carlton
We saw what happened when you put Judd on a good team (West Coast)
He was taking the league by storm, winning brownlows in his 3rd season, winning norm smith on a losing team, getting GOAT level hype, that Hodge could only dream of
Judd is simply on another level to Hodge
Judd is at the top class with Ablett snr and Ablett jnr, Carey, etc...
Hodge is in the Scott West, Pendlebury, Mitchell, Daniel Kerr etc class
What exactly is 'bullshit'? I noted his west coast years were amazing. But from the time he joined Carlton he was not that same player. No knock on him - he had injuries to contend with but you can't rate his whole career on four great years at West Coast.
Hodge was AA in 2005 in a team that finished 3rd last.
Hodge was AA in 2008 in a team that finished 2nd.
Hodge was AA in 2010 in a team that finished 8th.
Seems the constant here is that Hodge is great in any team.
You know what is better than a Norm Smith in a losing Grand final? Winning the Grand final. Hodge has played in 4 grand finals and polled Norm Smith votes in three of them, winning the award twice. That is all time great good. The grand final he didn't poll in we lost.
Has Hodge ever been considered the best player in the league? Has he ever won a brownlow? How about 2 brownlows with 2 separate teams?
Judd has been the unanimous best player in the league at West Coast AND at Carlton
Big difference between making AA, and being the best player in the league/MVP/Brownlow
I backed Judd in the Brownlow both years he won. He was not the best player in the league in 2010. Not by a long shot. He wasn't even favourite for the medal. But he was good at attracting votes in a team that had few players capable of polling votes. I don't think anyone considered Judd the best player in the league in his Carlton years. Buddy and Abblet were the main contenders for that crown from 2007 on wards. Judd is not the best midfielder of his generation but Hodge is the best utility.
Hodge also plays for a lot less money then Judd. Why? Paraphrasing his own words, everyone deserves to have their payday in football and he has had his so it is someone else turn. The same selflessness as he displayed on the field is displayed in his attitude towards contracts etc. Team first. Hawthorn would not have won 3 flags in this era without him. Might not have won any (certainly not 2008). Judd made his money while Hodge won is premierships.
Swan, Pendlebury, Ablett, Buddy and Mitchell all clearly better in 2011. Obviously Judd was top 10 but you will notice Hodge polled 17 votes in the brownlow playing HBF. The next best HBF polled 9 (if you count Goddard) or 8 (Heath Scotland). In brownlow terms he was literally twice as good as the next player in his position. That is how unbelievably good he is.
Incidentally, Buddy's season was something otherworldly in comparison to Judd. 82 goals, 400+ disposals and nearly 80 tackles. Probably Buddy's best season apart from goals (2008).
Judd was the brownlow favorite AND was voted and won the Lee Matthews MVP trophy
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I can't think of a game that Judd has played as poorly as Hodge did last night. Yet I can think of quite a few times where Hodge has been just as awful, quite a few of them in finals and grand finals as well.
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Yeah but Judd wouldn't be getting on the piss a week before finals either.
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no, he'd be out watching the wrestling
Judd wax best player in the league 2011 when swan won. They earned each others medals. It's such a s**t argument to say oh but Judd wasn't the best in 2010. Take your blinkers off
EagleCanival
Club Legend
Not to mention the fact that Hodge has never even been nearly the best player in the league at any stage in his career.
Voted MVP by his peers. I suggest you're underrating his years at Carlton by some margin here. He was immense.
Not true. In 2010, Hodge was considered the best player in the league for much of the year until he picked up a knock in rnd 17 and struggled through the remainder (much like Fyfe this season).
Hodge was leading the coaches votes and every major media award to that point. In the end, he got pipped by Swan for the coaches award (finishing runner up, again like Fyfe) and was second to Swan in the MVP and in most media awards too (Herald Sun, etc).
(the above is why it's funny that people keep mentioining Judd's Carlton brownlow as Hodge was easily the better player that year - it would be like of Selwood won the Brownlo this year and everyone looks back in years to come satying how much better Selwood was that Fyfe in 2015)
Please note - I have alread voted for Judd and consider his career the better of the two but just thought I should bust some myths.
He was immense and in the best 6-7 players in 2011 (he finished top 3 in the Coaches votes too). His MVP win came as a surprise to many pundits though (including on here). Those names mentioned (Mitchell, Pendelbury, Franklin, Ablett) were all players that probably had a better season (though as I said Judd was right up there). As strange as it may sound in retrospect, many people had felt Murphy was actually Carlton's best player that year though both were clearly in the top 10.
Here is a good article summarising all player of the year systems in 2011:
http://www.playerrater.com.au/news/feature/AFL-medias-footballer-of-the-year-for-2011
As you can see, Judd is top 5 in all.
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So basically what your saying is that Hodge, whilst winning nothing in 2010, was better than Judd in spite of the fact Judd won the Brownlow - the competition's most prestigious individual award.
There is a significant disconnect between the argument you are trying to make and the facts used to support it. How can you try and use individual awards as evidence and overlook the fact that Judd won the most significant one of them all, and Hodge won nothing.
So basically what your saying is that Hodge, whilst winning nothing in 2010, was better than Judd in spite of the fact Judd won the Brownlow - the competition's most prestigious individual award.
There is a significant disconnect between the argument you are trying to make and the facts used to support it. How can you try and use individual awards as evidence and overlook the fact that Judd won the most significant one of them all, and Hodge won nothing.
I didn't overlook it - I clearly highlighted that in that year the Brownlow got it wrong - it happens. The result of the Brownlow was a shock and produced a result that was an anomoly to every other award. Something I didn't mention is that Hodge was AA captain that year whilst Judd was considered lucky to have been named on the bench.
I respect the MVP, Coaches Votes, AA, every single media award, consensus at the time on BigFooty and Brownlow betting over the one award that put Judd ahead (coining the phrase C.Judd - 3 votes due to the sheer number of games he unexpectedly polled).
In 2010, it was clearly:
1. Swan
2. Hodge
3. Ablett
(coaches, players, media and fans all agreed - even the umpires seemed to agree after as they adjusted to award Swan tonnes of votes the next year and Judd fewer votes despite him being much better).
Don't see the fact that I am a Hawthorn supporter and assume I am swayed by bias as I have said many times that over their careers Judd was better. 2010 is simply one of the seasons he was not (e.g. 2011 when Judd did NOT win the Brownlow he was much better than when he did in 2010 and was better than Hodge by quite a margin).
Mate, let's not get carried away. Judd has played plenty of games worse than Hodge vs West Coast. Did you see any of Judd's games this year (or last year or the year before)?
Hodge was very quiet in the first half after his lay off but had 20 good possessions in the second half, hitting the contest hard to finish with 29 disposals, 6 tackles, 4 clearances and a goal. He was one of the few in the second half that (finally) stood up and kept it from being a 10-15 goal thrashing (we still lost as our structures were terrible and half the side were awful the entire time). Not saying he was great (first half too quiet) but Judd has had many games quieter than that one (e.g. vs West Coast earlier in the year, Vs. Geelong before injury in round 8, vs Sydney last time he was diabolical, etc).
Still - your overall point stands - Hodge has had many more quiet/bad games over his career than what Judd has.
This isn't even arguable you muppets
Judd is on a COMPLETELY different level to Hodge
Hodge is Dane Swan/Scott West level
Even Ben Cousins is better than Hodge, but we already knew that
Judd is on a COMPLETELY different level to Hodge
Hodge is Dane Swan/Scott West level
Even Ben Cousins is better than Hodge, but we already knew that
Hodge is Daniel Kerr level
