Luke Hodge v Chris Judd

[Claude Balls]

Ahhh ... a little more post-premiership euphoria. Hodge not a pinch on Judd as a player, but boy his team is good and he's got a masterful coach too.

A little provocative but not far from the truth.

 

[Claude Balls]

Hodge loses nothing to Judd, except bursting from packs and bouncing the ball twice before kicking it to the opposition.
Better kick.
Tougher.
Better mark.
Kicked better goals.
Better one on one.
More versatile.
Better finals player.
Better captain.

Jimmy Bartel was a better mark and kick, and more versatile than Judd too. Doesn't mean he was a better player.

 

[Claude Balls]

At their very best, this is a fairly easy question.

At some point though, you have to factor in Hodges performance in big games. He could go down as a 5-6 time premiership player if Hawthorn keep going. At what point does team success beat out individual accolades when comparing two players.

When all other things are equal and the two players in question have similar samples.

As a general rule, the AFL community's tendency to cite team success in the appraisal of an individual (regardless of circumstances) is *******ted in the extreme.

 

[detox]

Judd was a colossus at his best at west coast, However at Carlton his actual output was overhyped based on his reputation.

Was probably as good at Carlton as Matt Priddis is now. A fantastic Clearance player but lacked the outside damage he had at his best. Thats no slight though as Priddis is a fantastic player.

However, he was hardly in the top 5 mids based on actual output, maybe in 2011 but he wasn't the clear best. Evidence of this was the fact that he just scraped into the AA team on the bench in 2010 to complaints of reputation favoritism by many, yet won the Brownlow.

Yet even this season, Hodge put together a season equal to anything Judd produced at Carlton.

Judds west coast form was better consistently than what Hodge has put together, But if you consider ENTIRE careers, big game performance, leadership, and versitility, Hodge is easily in this debate.

 

[Demonated]

Judd was a colossus at his best at west coast, However at Carlton his actual output was overhyped based on his reputation.

Was probably as good at Carlton as Matt Priddis is now. A fantastic Clearance player but lacked the outside damage he had at his best. Thats no slight though as Priddis is a fantastic player.

However, he was hardly in the top 5 mids based on actual output, maybe in 2011 but he wasn't the clear best. Evidence of this was the fact that he just scraped into the AA team on the bench in 2010 to complaints of reputation favoritism by many, yet won the Brownlow.

Yet even this season, Hodge put together a season equal to anything Judd produced at Carlton.

Judds west coast form was better consistently than what Hodge has put together, But if you consider ENTIRE careers, big game performance, leadership, and versitility, Hodge is easily in this debate.

I think you may be severely underrating Judd's 2011 season. Was regarded as the best player in the comp that year, Hodge never reached those heights. Judd 2011 was easily superior to Hodge 2015 no doubt in my mind.

 

[detox]

I think you may be severely underrating Judd's 2011 season. Was regarded as the best player in the comp that year, Hodge never reached those heights. Judd 2011 was easily superior to Hodge 2015 no doubt in my mind.

Possibly, but you could make an argument that Hodges 2010 was at least as good as Judds 2011. Hodge was B&F that year, AA Captain in the centre, Came second in the MVP (Copped an injury in round 17 and wasn't quite right for the reast of the season) and Swan Pipped him. Was leading from memory.

Debatable- but certainly not enough difference justify the absolute myth that Judds Carlton form was any better than Hodges best form.

 

[Demonated]

Possibly, but you could make an argument that Hodges 2010 was at least as good as Judds 2011. Hodge was B&F that year, AA Captain in the centre, Came second in the MVP (Copped an injury in round 17 and wasn't quite right for the reast of the season) and Swan Pipped him. Was leading from memory.

Debatable- but certainly not enough difference justify the absolute myth that Judds Carlton form was any better than Hodges best form.

Hodge was 2nd by a fair bit from Swan so he wasnt pipped in any sense of the word and one does not 'lead' in the MVP, it's voted at the end of the year by all players. When Judd won the next year he absolutely smashed all other opponents by a huge margin. Seriously, he was almost triple the amount of votes to 2nd place. Hodge's 2010 wasn't nearly as dominant as Judd's 2011, let alone Hodge's 2015 as you orginally stated.

The fact that you are even comparing Carlton Judd to Hodge's best form just shows how good Judd was, as his Calrton form didn't reach the total dominance he consistently displayed at Eagles in his prime before injuries. Hodge has experienced more team success in his career and I'd bet it is more fulfilling, but he wasn't the player Judd was. I actually believe there is a level between the two. Judd is above Voss and Hird, Hodge is below them.

 

[Schraderbrau]

Hodge has never finished a season as the best player in the competition (and arguably best 5). Judd has had least 4 seasons where he was the indisputable best player in the competition, and several other years where it was up for debate. The fact we are having this discussion is embarrassing.

 

[Lethality]

I think you may be severely underrating Judd's 2011 season. Was regarded as the best player in the comp that year

He didn't even win his club's best and fairest. His 2011 was overrated on the back of a few dominant games against bottom 8 sides, as well as talk of a third Brownlow based on comparisons to his 2010 season where he seemed to poll overs.

 

[Lethality]

Hodge has never finished a season as the best player in the competition (and arguably best 5). Judd has had least 4 seasons where he was the indisputable best

He's won two MVPs, if he was indisputable he probably wins 4. Once again the myth doesn't match reality.

 

[Masqualero]

Yeah but the guy from my team is better......

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

There's no trolling here.

 

[Vindicater]

Judd the better player but Hawthorn fans would not change their pick for anything in the world if given the choice and why should they, Hodge has been a champion of their club.

If you were to pick one player at the best of their ability for one game you would take Judd however. For a career it really depends. Judd changed teams but likely wouldn't have if he were picked to a Victorian team.

 

[gym4life]

Hodge has never finished a season as the best player in the competition (and arguably best 5). Judd has had least 4 seasons where he was the indisputable best player in the competition, and several other years where it was up for debate. The fact we are having this discussion is embarrassing.

Lol, hes had one mate.

 

[MistyAvalon]

Hodgey..................

 

[Canada]

Judd as a player clearly. But Hawks wouldn't swap their pick in a million years.

 

[Procrastinator35]

First 6 years from 2002-2007: Judd easily.

From 2008-2016: Hodge....No Contest!

Overall career: 4 flags & still going.... to 1 flag, a spoon & done.

Everyone would choose Hodge's career without question....Has gone so far past Judd these past 5 seasons it's not even close!

 

[timtamWB]

First 6 years from 2002-2007: Judd easily.

From 2008-2016: Hodge....No Contest!

Overall career: 4 flags & still going.... to 1 flag, a spoon & done.

Everyone would choose Hodge's career without question....Has gone so far past Judd these past 5 seasons it's not even close!

Can we get a flag filter on this board?

When comparing two individual players flags mean nothing. They are a team achievement.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Can we get a flag filter on this board?

When comparing two individual players flags mean nothing. They are a team achievement.

Yeah...Nah

Hodge has been 'The MAN' in driving the Hawks to the past 3 flags.

As a Captain Judd aint even in the ball-park.

Leadership on the ground COUNTS X10 in Finals.

 

[blitzer]

Its become closer than it was early in their careers but realistically Judd spent about 3 years as the undisputed #1 player in the comp and then about 5 years as #2 behind Gary Ablett. Obviously there was form and injury dips at various points over so many years and occasionally other players jumped up (eg Pendlebury, Swan, Dangerfield, Watson etc) but consistently over the period that's how the majority of neutrals rated him.

Has Hodge ever been rated by the majority of neutrals as #1 or #2 in the comp? I've gotta say no. In fact he's mostly been rated outside the top 10. He's a quality player and has played lots of great finals and has longevity on his side but ultimately Judd's best was just on another level to anything Hodge has been able to put together. Giving Hodge credit for the great leadership at Hawthorn is a long bow to draw as well - there are lots of good leaders at Hawthorn which is why they have had sustained success. Its not just him.

Also there's no comparison with how much attention Judd got in terms of opposition tagging them compared to Hodge. Hodge has spent a fair bit of time in his career playing loose of half back whilst Judd was copping the number 1 tag and still dominating. Not many are able to do that. I must say Hodge is being greatly overrated on the basis of the team success that Hawthorn are having now.

 

[detox]

Its become closer than it was early in their careers but realistically Judd spent about 3 years as the undisputed #1 player in the comp and then about 5 years as #2 behind Gary Ablett. Obviously there was form and injury dips at various points over so many years and occasionally other players jumped up (eg Pendlebury, Swan, Dangerfield, Watson etc) but consistently over the period that's how the majority of neutrals rated him.

Has Hodge ever been rated by the majority of neutrals as #1 or #2 in the comp? I've gotta say no. In fact he's mostly been rated outside the top 10. He's a quality player and has played lots of great finals and has longevity on his side but ultimately Judd's best was just on another level to anything Hodge has been able to put together. Giving Hodge credit for the great leadership at Hawthorn is a long bow to draw as well - there are lots of good leaders at Hawthorn which is why they have had sustained success. Its not just him.

Also there's no comparison with how much attention Judd got in terms of opposition tagging them compared to Hodge. Hodge has spent a fair bit of time in his career playing loose of half back whilst Judd was copping the number 1 tag and still dominating. Not many are able to do that. I must say Hodge is being greatly overrated on the basis of the team success that Hawthorn are having now.

Lets look at some champion data stats for a second. Its not the be all and end all, but its slightly better than making statements backed up by nothing, like the often-peddled quote above. I'll pick both players 3 best seasons statistically.

I'll start with Judds 2011, where he won the MVP, VS Hodges 2010, where he didn't

Judd 2011 -
Top 5 CD matches for this season - 197, 180, 163, 155, 154
- Season Average - 116

Hodge 2010
Top 5 CD matches for this season - 193, 192, 175, 169, 165
- Season Average - 116

Lets go another-

Judd 2006
Top 5 CD matches for this season - 232,200,184,183,168
- Season Average - 132

Hodge 2005
Top 5 CD matches for this season - 217,183,176, 169, 167
- Season Average - 135

and a third-

Judd 2010 -
Top 5 CD matches for this season - 153,148,146,145,143
- Season Average - 118

Hodge 2008
Top 5 CD matches for this season - 174,167,156,155,148
- Season Average - 118

Whats often talked about as Judds best game - was against Brisbane where he had 39 disposals and kicked 4 goals.
Hodge had 36 and 6 against the dogs in 2007. Not significant, but yet another statistical example of Hodge Matching Judd, despite apparently never being able to do so.

Hodges champion data average of 135 in 2005 has only ever been beaten by Gary Ablett. For all the piss and wind about Fyfe this year (and deservedly so) he has yet to at least statistically stack up to Hodges best season.

The stats above at the very LEAST highlight your (and other posters) ludicrous conclusion that Hodge has never been in the top 10 players in the competition. Statistically, in terms of extremely good performances, Only Ablett, Judd and recently Fyfe have ever been capable of producing 150+ scores at such consistency. Hodge was close to the top 10 players THIS year (at 31), so your claim that he has never been a top 10 player is just ludicrous.,

And as for team success, your argument is that Hodge is greatly benefiting for the team success that he has been probably the most influential player in helping create? Thats like saying Voss is overrated because his team was so good. Tell me why was his team so good then?

And the loose half back thing? You mean like the 2008 grand final?

 

[blitzer]

Lets look at some champion data stats for a second. Its not the be all and end all, but its slightly better than making statements backed up by nothing, like the often-peddled quote above. I'll pick both players 3 best seasons statistically.

I'll start with Judds 2011, where he won the MVP, VS Hodges 2010, where he didn't

Judd 2011 -
Top 5 CD matches for this season - 197, 180, 163, 155, 154
- Season Average - 116

Hodge 2010
Top 5 CD matches for this season - 193, 192, 175, 169, 165
- Season Average - 116

Lets go another-

Judd 2006
Top 5 CD matches for this season - 232,200,184,183,168
- Season Average - 132

Hodge 2005
Top 5 CD matches for this season - 217,183,176, 169, 167
- Season Average - 135

and a third-

Judd 2010 -
Top 5 CD matches for this season - 153,148,146,145,143
- Season Average - 118

Hodge 2008
Top 5 CD matches for this season - 174,167,156,155,148
- Season Average - 118

Whats often talked about as Judds best game - was against Brisbane where he had 39 disposals and kicked 4 goals.
Hodge had 36 and 6 against the dogs in 2007. Not significant, but yet another statistical example of Hodge Matching Judd, despite apparently never being able to do so.

Hodges champion data average of 135 in 2005 has only ever been beaten by Gary Ablett. For all the piss and wind about Fyfe this year (and deservedly so) he has yet to at least statistically stack up to Hodges best season.

The stats above at the very LEAST highlight your (and other posters) ludicrous conclusion that Hodge has never been in the top 10 players in the competition. Statistically, in terms of extremely good performances, Only Ablett, Judd and recently Fyfe have ever been capable of producing 150+ scores at such consistency. Hodge was close to the top 10 players THIS year (at 31), so your claim that he has never been a top 10 player is just ludicrous.,

And as for team success, your argument is that Hodge is greatly benefiting for the team success that he has been probably the most influential player in helping create? Thats like saying Voss is overrated because his team was so good. Tell me why was his team so good then?

And the loose half back thing? You mean like the 2008 grand final?

For the record i said he's mostly been rated outside the top 10. Not never been a top 10 player. I did however say he's never been rated as the #1 or #2 player by most neutrals, which i'm happy to stand by. Just so you know even if you have 1 season as the best player it doesn't necessarily mean that the whole AFL will jump on board - no matter how many champion data points you accumulate (did they even exist back in 2005?). It's all about the consistency of domination. So Hodge had a good 2005 - i agree. But how does his 2004, 2006, 2007 etc stack up. Hodge's best has been very good but has he ever done it year on year on year the way Judd did from 2004 - 2006 when he was considered far and away the best in the comp. Not for mine.

Your data is great and definitely demonstrates that Hodge is a fantastic player which no one denies. Nonetheless Judd was the prototype big bodied explosive clearance mid. The guy that that everyone wanted to draft in years to come - eg Cooney/Deledio in years following going #1.
I may not have stats to back this up or the inclination to find any but i am damned sure that Hodge has spent mountains of time more loose of half back than Judd in his career. Judd pretty much only played as a clearance winning mid his whole career, attracted the #1 tag pretty much from his 3rd season til the end of his career. I don't believe for a second that Hodge has copped so much attention from taggers over his career - so the champion data argument loses a bit of potency for me in that respect.

Versatility is a great aspect and one which Hodge definitely had over Judd. However there are some roles such as CHF and being the premier midfielder that are just more important than being a quality utility which is really what Hodge has been for most of his career. When you are comparing to a guy that is rated as one of the best of his generation you can't get past this. No matter how good you are off half back - you are never going to get rated above the best CHF for example.

 

[detox]

For the record i said he's mostly been rated outside the top 10. Not never been a top 10 player. I did however say he's never been rated as the #1 or #2 player by most neutrals, which i'm happy to stand by. Just so you know even if you have 1 season as the best player it doesn't necessarily mean that the whole AFL will jump on board - no matter how many champion data points you accumulate (did they even exist back in 2005?). It's all about the consistency of domination. So Hodge had a good 2005 - i agree. But how does his 2004, 2006, 2007 etc stack up. Hodge's best has been very good but has he ever done it year on year on year the way Judd did from 2004 - 2006 when he was considered far and away the best in the comp. Not for mine.

How did he go in 2007 ? Again at least statistically better than Judd. He was very good in 2006 likewise.

Hodge has had some pretty well documented injury concerns over part of his career. He Suffered from OP in his first few years, had severely injury affected seasons in 2009 and 2012. So what if he never had 3 years at the top? He also has put in 3 years of sensational football in his 30's whilst Judd has been completely cooked.

Your data is great and definitely demonstrates that Hodge is a fantastic player which no one denies. Nonetheless Judd was the prototype big bodied explosive clearance mid. The guy that that everyone wanted to draft in years to come - eg Cooney/Deledio in years following going #1.
I may not have stats to back this up or the inclination to find any but i am damned sure that Hodge has spent mountains of time more loose of half back than Judd in his career. Judd pretty much only played as a clearance winning mid his whole career, attracted the #1 tag pretty much from his 3rd season til the end of his career. I don't believe for a second that Hodge has copped so much attention from taggers over his career - so the champion data argument loses a bit of potency for me in that respect.

Regarding the old "loose halfback" thing, let me educate you on something.

Luke Hodge has played "loose" at halfback probably around 6 or 7 times in total. This was from about Round 17 2008, to the grand final that year. The move to send Hodge back came when teams started double teaming Buddy, as he was having his breakout year. Teams would drop one back and have a loose player on Buddy, and Clarkson's counter was to place Hodge loose at half back for us. If the opposition decided to do this, it was a tactic that we just didn't lose, as Franklin was often good enough to beat 2 defenders, and Hodge was FAR better than his counterpart at playing this position. This lasted until the grand final, in which both Stokes, and Rooke rotated through Hodge that day, who easily had the better of both. When you have a defender on you, your not a loose man. You may be confused here, as Hodge's reading of the play and abiltiy to consistently outsmart his opponent might make it appear this way.

We played Geelong Round 1 next year, and Hodge had no impact, because Bomber decided to huddle his forwards like it was a kickout and all lead in opposite directions, as a direct counter to what Hodge was able to do in the grand final. From that day on, Hodge was never ever allowed to roam free in defence.

Hodge has had it easier as of late - but from 2005 - 2010 - he was constantly tagged. People forget that during those years he was for most part our #1 mid - ahead of Mitchell/

However there are some roles such as CHF and being the premier midfielder that are just more important than being a quality utility which is really what Hodge has been for most of his career. When you are comparing to a guy that is rated as one of the best of his generation you can't get past this. No matter how good you are off half back - you are never going to get rated above the best CHF for example.

This might be true, if your names Joel Bowden - who was a quality half back.

But Joel Bowden can't have 36 touches and kick 6 from the midfield. He can't go forward and kick bags of 4 / 5 as Hodge has done.

Hodge's defensive ability would match that of Corey Enrights, yet his Midfield ability (when at his best- as previous statistics will at least argue) can match that of Judd, and would better that of basically the entire competition.

You (and so many without thinking about it) act like this sort of versatility is of some sort of hinderance to him in comparison to Judd, when it is the sole reason Hodge is such a star. If Hodge was only a gun midfielder, we would have lost the 2008 Grand final. No doubt about it.

 

[MinerBoy]

You (and so many without thinking about it) act like this sort of versatility is of some sort of hinderance to him in comparison to Judd, when it is the sole reason Hodge is such a star. If Hodge was only a gun midfielder, we would have lost the 2008 Grand final. No doubt about it.

The thing many people lose sight of when talking of Hodge's time out of the middle (i.e. playing half back, or half forward, or CHB) is that it isn't because he isn't a gun mid. It is because he can do those things as well as be a gun mid. He has sacrificed his personal glory of being that gun midfielder to fill holes wherever the team has needed him.

Yet even now, in his 30s and twilight, he has been spending far more time in the midfield than people give credit for. It's lazy but people still think he plays half back. Most of our team play in different positions at various stages through every game but first and foremost, Hodge is still predominantly a mid and still one of the best. When GFs are being played, he does quite well at them, and despite how much time he (and Mitch too) spend rotating off HB during the season, come the big dance they are in the action and surprise surprise out pointing the best mids of the best opposition team the season has been able to throw at them.

There's currently a thread on the main board about the current best 20 mids I think, without having glanced at it too thoroughly. Can't see Hodge's name anywhere. Completely ridiculous. He dominated last season and if not for his 5 weeks missed through suspension I dare say would have been AA again and most likely, captain again. As it was, he still should have been selected.

 

[Roddy]

Viewed in isolation, Judd is clearly the superior individual player. There is little question about that.

If I was a young professional footballer starting out, and could choose out of their careers? I'd choose Hodge's career a million times before Judd's.

And value to the teams that selected them, or the teams they played for? That's even more of a clear cut win to Hodge.

So it depends upon what perspective you judge it from.

Would I go back and change our pick? Not in a squillion bazillion years...