FTA-TV Making a Murderer - SPOILERS

[Ochre]

I wasn't referring to Mike watching the documentary, I was referring to your statement that they "They killed his sister". I assume that means you think he's guilty right? I just don't see how anyone could be certain of it after watching the series.

He didn't see the documentary but he did see the trial and didn't seem to question any of the irregularities in the case or waver from his belief that Steven and Brendan killed his sister. I don't see how he could come out and be so blunt and certain that Brendan, a mentally handicapped kid was lying under oath for instance. There was not a shred of scientific evidence that linked him to the case.

He was a douche.

I believe Avery is guilty, but my point is that the brother thought he was guilty and I don't believe thats an unreasonable belief for him to have had.

 

[Macca19]

Of course the brother is going to be steadfast in his belief that Avery did it. On face value you have all the evidence pointing to him doing it. He would be in daily conversation with the prosecution and they'd be explaining to him why certain points of the defence dont matter.

He was a bit douchey but then most people would be in his situation.

I wasnt convinced of Averys innocence watching it. I feel he did it, but the police made sure they had more evidence to convict.

 

[have a RHG]

What I believe:

- Steve did not kill her, i believe Scott and Bobby did.
- Cops knew where car was planted and got help from Ex Boyfriend to find car (through the search group_
- They did not kill her in the bedroom or garage.
- Cops most certainly planted evidence (blood, key, Car)
- Lenk got the blood and planted it (as well as the Key), while Colburn most definitely moved the car
- FBI played along to help the County (EDTA test)

But what gets me the most is how stupid they make Steve out to be, why would he rape and kill a women when he currently has a $38,000,000 lawsuit against the County? And to do it in the same place the cops have already tried to set him up?

I don't reckon that fire was hot enough to burn bones, grave to shallow etc. Not a fire expert but imagine you would need some serious heat considering how much bone wasn't found.

Hope the Cop Campaigners get some Karma come their way. Even if Steve is guilty, Cops certainly had a part to play in the whole fiasco.

this is pretty much my line of thinking.
I will add that i have changed my mibd countless times to weather he is guilty or not.
a few other things stood out to me.
-the Avery's had a car crusher on site. if he was going to stash the car on site why not crush it and in that case her with it.
- Scott is definetly involved. he's testimony was laughable
- i agree that we're only getting 1 side of the story and its why i keep changing my mind

 

[vonn]

You realise you were watching a doccumentary created by the defense right ?
http://www.newsmax.com/TheWire/making-a-murderer-steven-avery-guilty/2016/01/06/id/708361/ (literally the first google result)
Also to your bolded point, Dassey's jeans were tested in a lab and covered in bleach

Add in those facts to the case, and the fact that your sister has just been murdered, and the brother has every reason to act like a douche towards the man he believes killed his sister

What, you're telling me that Brendan/Steven are both so adept at removing every single trace of DNA from just about half the surface of his trailer including the entire bedroom, the entire garage and her car in not even a week, but forgets something as obvious as his jeans? No way.

 

[mandy]

What, you're telling me that Brendan/Steven are both so adept at removing every single trace of DNA from just about half the surface of his trailer including the entire bedroom, the entire garage and her car in not even a week, but forgets something as obvious as his jeans? No way.

Not only that, but in this miraculous clean up they were able to somehow only remove traces of her DNA. Steven's was all over the place.

 

[freshazimiz]

I'm agreeing that Bobby and Scott seem the most suspicious. They would know the more intimate details on being able to frame Steven and somewhat deflect it to his lesser intelligent brother when officers questioned Bobby.

Their alibi involved each other and no one else saw them during that time line.
Not sure I'm correct with the date but Scott took work off that day as well. Then he later tried to sell his .22 rifle ASAP.

There is no way Steven and Brendan did it because,
1. Had they raped her in Stevens bed there would've been Brendan's dna as he allegedly raped her plus they would've had to burn the bed or clean the s**t out of the house.
2. they allegedly dragged her to the garage to shoot her in the head, if that's the case then how is it possible that the 290 items in the garage had no traces of blood in any except for 1 little tiny bullet as in trial shows how easy it is to contaminate items. Cops only found .22 bullet shells which Scott owns im guessing it would've been easy find shells around the premises, shows no proof of anything to point to them shooting her dead in the garage.
3. They allegedly put her in the fire which you need a pretty big damn fire to burn everything that they allegedy used to kill her as well has her items.

As suspect as they look, think the brother and her ex were just nosy people who went out of bounds in wanting to know more details of her where abouts who may have co operated with the crooked cops.

There may be a chance that Steven may have done it, yes he is white trash and some story seems he's abit odd, but if evidence is placed by cops who weren't allowed on the case in order to convince he did it, they obviously did not let justice take its natural course which I think is the point of the whole documentary.

 

[BACCS]

Why did Teresa's brother (Mike) have such stubborn views towards Avery and Brendan, even when some clearly dodgy s*** was going down in the court? Was he simply hoping for justice or was there something else at play? He seemed shifty and a complete campaigner of a bloke. Reddit has some interesting theories on him.

I'd even go as far as to say he was nearly more unlikeable than Kratz and looked even dodgier in appearance than Fassbender!

Saw that he works at the Greenbay Packers in their media department.

 

[BACCS]

You realise you were watching a doccumentary created by the defense right ?
http://www.newsmax.com/TheWire/making-a-murderer-steven-avery-guilty/2016/01/06/id/708361/ (literally the first google result)
Also to your bolded point, Dassey's jeans were tested in a lab and covered in bleach

Add in those facts to the case, and the fact that your sister has just been murdered, and the brother has every reason to act like a douche towards the man he believes killed his sister

Hang on, what? Where has this come from?

 

[BACCS]

http://www.wickedhorror.com/top-hor...defense-evidence-left-out-of-the-documentary/

 

[Sylvia Saint]

Saw that he works at the Greenbay Packers in their media department.

Yeah I read that somewhere and had many people who could verify his whereabouts. You guys have raised some valid points regarding the brother, but I still didn't like him. Soz.

I know quite a lot of people on this thread think he's guilty. It's certainly possible and nobody wants to have their beliefs moulded for them by a clearly biased documentary, but I'm still in the innocent camp. There are plenty of holes in the evidence which everyone knows already and I don't need to repeat. Strang and Buting defended his case brilliantly and it was probably the FBI's forensic test which knocked them out of the race in the end. Even WITH that test it was 7-3-2 in favour of 'Not Guilty' on the jury at first.

I personally don't think Avery's reaction at the 'Guilty' verdict was that of someone that had killed her. I also don't think he's a good enough actor to have been faking it. And would he be spending hundreds of hours in the law library doing boring as bat s**t research, if he was guilty? Possibly, but I doubt it.

I doubt that new hotshot lawyer he's got with the 17/20 strike rate would have taken him on if she didn't think she had a serious chance of getting him out.

 

[Hamingja]

Haven't finished watching the whole thing yet but couldn't help to think of the resemblance (in manner rather than straight out lookalike), the guy was so cheesy. Worst lawyer ever.

 

[Gasometer]

There is so a movie in this.

 

[Fwoy]

 

[rumply]

This case just swings from one extreme to another & here I am again thinking these guys are probably innocent.

might be worth a look

 

[Sylvia Saint]

http://www.theladbible.com/articles...-on-a-twitter-rant-about-his-innocence-220116

 

[celtic67]

BEST THEORY I'VE SEEN TO DATE

The police didn't kill Theresa Halbach. Andrew Colborn located that RAV4 with the assistance of Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas who illegally trespassed onto the Avery Salvage Yard on the night of November 3rd 2005. Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas suspected something was up since the Avery Salvage Yard was the last place they knew Theresa visited on Oct.31st Halloween day. They went snooping on the property and found the car.

Mike Halbach
They checked the car and found the key in the ignition and blood in the cargo area. Mike or Ryan removed the key from the ignition to ensure that no one could easily move the car off of the Avery property... freaked out about this huge discovery they call the Manitowoc Sheriffs Department. Andrew Colborn fielded the call that night and went out and met Ryan and Mike at the Salvage Yard so he could view the car for himself. Ryan and Mike show him the car and to be certain its Halbach's he "calls" in the plate number to dispatch. Colborn has to "call" in... instead of "radio" in... the plate number to Manitowoc dispatch because he wasn't in his police cruiser at the moment, but rather on foot and in the "field' on the Avery Salvage property.

Ryan Hillegas
This mistake places Colborn at the scene and in contact with Halbach's RAV4... 2 days before it is officially located on November 5th, 2005, by Pam Sturm.... This is problematic for Colborn because all call and radio transmissions to dispatch are recorded and logged onto the Manitowoc Police server. Andrew Colborn is now operating outside of police protocol at a potential crime scene that he has no official directive to be at. He tells Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas to basically STFU about what they found and not mention to anyone that they were ever on the Avery Salvage property that night. Ryan or Mike turns the RAV4 key over to Andrew Colborn.

Andrew Colborn
Mike and Ryan are told to go home. Andrew Colborn then immediately calls Lt. James Lenk and briefs him about the discovery of the Halbach car and breaches of protocol he committed on the Avery property, also about Ryan Hillegas and Mike Halbach being there. Lt James Lenk realizing that Colborn's calling in Halbachs plate is a serious mistake with potential consequences orders Andrew Colborn to remove the license plate from Halbach's car and then report to him immediately.

Lt James Lenk
What James Lenk and Andrew Colborn, or the others for that matter, don't realize at this point and are completely unaware of is that Bobby Dassey and Scott Tadych have kidnapped, raped, shot and then burned Theresa Halbach in the privacy of the gravel quarry off of Jambo Rd on Halloween evening. They choose to burn her body to dispose of their DNA evidence of the crimes. They hid Halbach's car in the rear of Avery Salvage and wiped it clean of their prints.

Bobby Dassey
I believe it is Scott Tadych's idea to secretly transport the cremains of Halbach from the gravel quarry and dispose them into Steven Avery's burn pit. Scott Tadych transports Halbach's cremains in secret by using one of Barb Jandas burn barrels from her yard. Scott Tadych fails to collect all of Halbach's cremains from the original burn site in the gravel quarry, thus leaving some behind that FBI investigators later find... but he also fails in making certain all of Halbach's cremains are out of Barb Jandas burn barrel after dumping them into Steven Avery's burn pit.

Scott Tadych
This is why investigators found small bits of Halbach in Barb Jandas burn barrel. Thus making a total of three sites where Halbach's cremains are found. Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey are unaware that Ryan Hillegas and Mike Halbach have found Theresas car on the property and that Lenk and Colborn are now involved and in play with their scheme. .........By shear colossal luck, two completely independent frame jobs targeting one man, Steven Avery were shaping up into the perfect storm. On one front, from Lenk and Colborn regarding the RAV4, ....and on the other unconnected front by Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey regarding the cremains of Theresa Halbach. One party wasn't aware of the other's involvements at any point during the days leading up to the official discovery of Halbach's RAV4 at the Avery Salvage Yard hence why the investigation and murder trial made zero sense to anyone especially the Jury.

Ken Kratz
None of the evidence could be connected because it was all unrelated... everybody was guessing. But Buting and Strang had zeroed in on a part of it but couldn't fully form a solid defense to prove it. The Jury couldn't conceive that Manitowoc officers could have conspired to kill Theresa Halbach to frame Steven Avery as Ken Kratz insisted they had to if they wanted to follow the theory the defense presented of the frame up of Steven Avery by Manitowoc officials.


And Ken Kratz was right... Imagine Scott Tadych's confused and utter relief when Steven Avery's blood was found in the Halbach car and the RAV4 key found in Steven Avery's bedroom..... he must have been like.... WTF?! When Steven Avery was convicted of Theresa Halbach's murder, I bet Scott Tadych couldn’t believe his luck.

 

[Ochre]

By shear colossal luck, two completely independent frame jobs targeting one man, Steven Avery were shaping up into the perfect storm. .

Yeah. Nah.

 

[MC Bad Genius]

I finished watching this a couple of weeks ago and have continued to flip between whether or not Steven and/or Brendan are guilty. Reading all the extra information online (including raw transcripts of interviews etc) wasn't particularly illuminating either as they just added more pros/cons to each different version of events. If I was a member of the jury, I would've gone with NOT guilty as there was more than enough there to constitute reasonable doubt, but I don't necessarily think Steven was innocent. The way I'm leaning towards now is that the Police had some evidence linking Steven to the crime, but it was only circumstantial, so they tried to manipulate some of the other evidence to make sure it was a slam-dunk (which is dodgy as hell), such as searching Avery's property unofficially and finding Teresa's car etc. But I'll probably change my mind tomorrow ...

My opinion on Brendan is still very divided. The interviewing techniques were horribly flawed and the actions of his defence lawyer were indefensible. He was such a vulnerable witness, why the hell wasn't he present for ANY of the interviews with Police? And why have your own PI leading your client to confess? It's so messed up! Even if he was involved in some way, my heart broke for him every time he was on screen.

Also, I realise that conspiracy theories are going to spring up everywhere, but they need to stop mentioning Teresa's brother. No-one involved in the case (including Steven Avery himself) have ever suggested that he is a suspect in any way. Yes, he came across as a bit of a douche at times, but this was all part of his own grieving process and no doubt he was privy to some of the additional evidence that wasn't shown in the trial (because it was circumstantial etc) that had him 100% convinced that Avery killed his sister.

Finally, what a great piece of work these directors have given us all. It's been years in the making and they've done it incredibly well, which is shown by the massive conversation it has sparked up on a global scale. It also shines a light on the horribly inept justice system in America and has brought a lot of interest into other similar cases. I know I've already read plenty of articles and written down some other documentaries to watch as well.

 

[The Dice Man]

I don't understand why Theresa's ex boyfriend wasn't investigated. There was talk she was recieving annoying phone calls, and seemed he hung around like a bad smell. Was front and centre at the search point, looking like a dodgy campaigner, but then disappeared.

 

[Hamingja]

My opinion on Brendan is still very divided. The interviewing techniques were horribly flawed and the actions of his defence lawyer were indefensible. He was such a vulnerable witness, why the hell wasn't he present for ANY of the interviews with Police? And why have your own PI leading your client to confess? It's so messed up! Even if he was involved in some way, my heart broke for him every time he was on screen.

It's just amazing that he can be convicted on the basis of those coerced interviews with no physical evidence linking him to it whatsoever.

The defence lawyer got the smackdown he deserved in that last ep.

The prosecutor offering to take a woman on a date to an autopsy. Man, what a catch.

50/50 on Avery but the alternate suspect has to be the step dad. Shady guy.

 

[celtic67]

My opinion on Brendan is still very divided. The interviewing techniques were horribly flawed and the actions of his defence lawyer were indefensible. He was such a vulnerable witness, why the hell wasn't he present for ANY of the interviews with Police? And why have your own PI leading your client to confess? It's so messed up! Even if he was involved in some way, my heart broke for him every time he was on screen.

The fact Kratz was allowed to read Brendan's version of events to the media prior to the trial is appalling. All 12 jurors would've been heavily swayed by that statement well before setting foot in the court room. Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey were definitely involved. I would love to know what voice messages were deleted from Teresa's phone in the days after her death.

 

[have a RHG]

I don't understand why Theresa's ex boyfriend wasn't investigated. There was talk she was recieving annoying phone calls, and seemed he hung around like a bad smell. Was front and centre at the search point, looking like a dodgy campaigner, but then disappeared.

The police werent even slightly interested in anyone else. And the defence team wasnt allowed to offer any other suspecta as alternatives in their defence. That in itself shows how corrupt that system was.

 

[MC Bad Genius]

It's just amazing that he can be convicted on the basis of those coerced interviews with no physical evidence linking him to it whatsoever.

The defence lawyer got the smackdown he deserved in that last ep.

The prosecutor offering to take a woman on a date to an autopsy. Man, what a catch.

50/50 on Avery but the alternate suspect has to be the step dad. Shady guy.

From what I've read, although the coerced statements were allowed into the court, the bigger thing that convinced the jury of Brendan's guilt was his "uncoerced" phone conversations with his mother while he was in custody. But it's plainly obvious that he was just doing what he was told by the investigators to confess and apologise. They surely knew that he would be compliant with everything they asked him to do and that way they guaranteed that even if his taped confession was thrown out, the phone call would still be enough. It's pretty disgusting, really.

Also, I think the whole family is pretty shady, including Steven, of course. Yes, they were outcasts and unfairly maligned by Police and society at large in a number of ways, but there was a history of criminal behaviour that makes all of them seem pretty suspicious.

 

[MC Bad Genius]

The fact Kratz was allowed to read Brendan's version of events to the media prior to the trial is appalling. All 12 jurors would've been heavily swayed by that statement well before setting foot in the court room. Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey were definitely involved. I would love to know what voice messages were deleted from Teresa's phone in the days after her death.

It's just one of a litany of things that should have lead to a mistrial (or an acquittal), even if they were the only thing wrong in the investigation. When you lump all of them together, it is absolutely appalling that the trials were both allowed to go ahead and that guilty verdicts were issued.

 

[celtic67]

Was anyone else perplexed by Steven Avery's ability to remain unbelievably calm throughout the whole trial? Even when his nephew Bobby was giving allegedly false evidence against him, he just sat there quietly looking him in the eye. I realise there wasn't much he could do but I just found his patience throughout the trial quite remarkable. I think most innocent people in that same situation would have a hard time remaining so composed.