Analysis Making the Top 4 and building to a flag. 4TH is IRRELEVANT, MAKE IT TOP 3

[RussellEbertHandball]

Whatever happened to Clinton Young? He went to Collingwood but that was at least 2 seasons ago.

delisted on Monday
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...d-tony-armstrong/story-fni5f6hd-1227527066199

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

How the Two GF sides were put together.
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...heroes-says-jeff-kennett-20151002-gk08rg.html
HAWTHORN
2001 NATIONAL DRAFT: Luke Hodge (1), Sam Mitchell (36)
2002 -
2003 -
2004 NATIONAL DRAFT: Jarryd Roughead (2), Jordan Lewis (7)
2005 NATIONAL DRAFT: Grant Birchall (14)
2006 -
2007 NATIONAL DRAFT: Cyril Rioli (12), Brendan Whitecross (29)
2008 NATIONAL DRAFT: Ryan Schoenmakers (16), Liam Shiels (34)

2009 TRADE: Josh Gibson (and pick 69, for picks 25 and 41), Shaun Burgoyne (for picks 9, 40, 56 and Mark Williams)
NATIONAL DRAFT: Sam Grimley (39), Ben Stratton (46), Taylor Duryea (69) ROOKIE ELEVATION: Matthew Suckling

2010 TRADE: David Hale (and pick 52, for picks 27 and 71) NATIONAL DRAFT: Isaac Smith (19), Angus Litherland (55), Paul Puopolo (66)

2011 TRADE: Jack Gunston (and picks 53 and 71, for picks 24, 46 and 64) NATIONAL DRAFT: Bradley Hill (33), Alex Woodward (53)
ROOKIE ELEVATION: Luke Breust

2012 TRADE: Jed Anderson (and picks 29 and 68, for Stephen Gilham and picks 27 and 63), Brian Lake (and pick 27, for picks 21 and 41), Matt Spangher (and pick 72, for pick 66) NATIONAL DRAFT: Tim O'Brien (28), Kaiden Brand (66) DELISTED FREE AGENT: Jonathan Simpkin

2013 TRADE: Ben McEvoy (and picks 24 and 59, for picks 18, 19 and Shane Savage) NATIONAL DRAFT: Billy Hartung (24), James Sicily (56)
ROOKIE ELEVATION: Jonathon Ceglar, Will Langford

2014 TRADE: Jonathan O'Rourke (and pick 43, for picks 19 and 40) UNRESTRICTED FREE AGENT: James Frawley NATIONAL DRAFT: Dan Howe (31), Teia Miles (49), Marc Pittonet (50) ROOKIE ELEVATION: Zac Webster, Dallas Willsmore
CURRENT ROOKIE LIST Sam Grimley, Kurt Heatherley, Jared Hardisty, Jermaine Miller-Lewis, Lachlan Langford, Shem-Kalvin Tatupu

WEST COAST
2003 NATIONAL DRAFT: Sam Butler (20)
2004 NATIONAL DRAFT: Matt Rosa (29), Mark LeCras (37)
2005 NATIONAL DRAFT: Shannon Hurn (13)
2006 NATIONAL DRAFT: Mitch Brown (16), Eric McKenzie (29), Will Schofield (50) ROOKIE ELEVATION: Matt Priddis
2007 TRADE: Josh Kennedy (and pick 3. For Chris Judd and pick 46) NATIONAL DRAFT: Chris Masten (3), Scott Selwood (22)
PRE-SEASON DRAFT: Patrick McGinnity
2008 NATIONAL DRAFT: Nic Naitanui (2), Luke Shuey (18)
2009 NATIONAL DRAFT: Brad Sheppard (7)
2010 NATIONAL DRAFT: Andrew Gaff (4), Jack Darling (26), Scott Lycett (29)

2011 TRADE: Josh Hill (for pick 49) NATIONAL DRAFT: Murray Newman (23), Fraser McInnes (28)

2012 TRADE: Jamie Cripps (and pick 46, for picks 41 and 44), Sharrod Wellingham (for pick 18) NATIONAL DRAFT: Brant Colledge (45), Mark Hutchings (60)

2013 TRADE: Elliot Yeo (for pick 28) UNRESTRICTED FREE AGENT: Xavier Ellis NATIONAL DRAFT: Dom Sheed (11), Malcolm Karpany (31), Tom Barrass (43), Dylan Main (49) ROOKIE ELEVATION: Jamie Bennell, Jeremy McGovern, Simon Tunbridge

2014 NATIONAL DRAFT: Liam Duggan (11), Tom Lamb (32), Jackson Nelson (51), Damien Cavka (66), Alec Waterman (76, father-son)
ROOKIE ELEVATION: Callum Sinclair
CURRENT ROOKIE LIST Murray Newman, Will Maginness, Rowen Powell, Kane Lucas, Corey Adamson, Paddy Brophy
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...heroes-says-jeff-kennett-20151002-gk08rg.html

 

[*PAF]

You could probably include who Hawthorn traded out to get some of those draft picks.

 

[Power Raid]

the hawks trading has been impressive

 

[*PAF]

In 2001 Hawthorn traded Croad and McPharlin for pick 1 (Hodge).
In 2004 it wasThompson for pick 7 (Lewis)

You could say that Hodge and Lewis are Hawthorn.

They certainly weren't scared to pull the trigger.

EDIT: That would be something similar to us trading Trengove, Broadbent or Hartlett plus a younger Schulz, if not more than that, for picks 1 and 7.

EDIT 2: In 2005 it was Johnathan Hay and Lonie out for picks 14 and 18.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

In 2001 Hawthorn traded Croad and McPharlin for pick 1 (Hodge).
In 2004 it wasThompson for pick 7 (Lewis)

You could say that Hodge and Lewis are Hawthorn.

They certainly weren't scared to pull the trigger.

EDIT: That would be something similar to us trading Trengove, Broadbent or Hartlett plus a younger Schulz, if not more than that, for picks 1 and 7.

2001 Trade was Croad + McPharlin for 1 (Hodge )+20 (Daniel Elstone 0 games)+36 (Mitchell)

 

[wharfietilidie]

Hawthorn's story tells me that if you can keep an a-grade core together got from the draft you can trade/free agent your way to sustained success once that core group gets to a certain age.

 

[*PAF]

2001 Trade was Croad + McPharlin for 1 (Hodge )+20 (Daniel Elstone 0 games)+36 (Mitchell)

Hodge, Lewis and Mitchell.
Take those 3 out, replace them with McPharlin, Croad, and Thompson, and history might have turned out different.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Hawks 2005 trade for Jonathan Hay to North was - who had depression issues but they kept that quiet - like Nathan Thompson 12 months earlier, was pick 18 from North and pick 14 from us we gave up for for Motlop with Lonie thrown in as the steak knives but the substance of deal basically was 2 first rounders for Hay.

The first round finished at pick 19 because there were 3 priority picks - one of which was the Hawk again who with pick 3 drafted Xavier Elis - a premiership player, but stuffed up their first round pick 6 with Beau Dowler. With pick 18 they got direct from North they got Max Bailey who played in the flag in 2013 after 2 or 3 knee reco's and with pick 14 we gave up for Motlop, they drafted a now 4 time premiership player Grant Birchall.

First head recruiter ex Hawks champ Garry Buckenarra, former Collingwood 1990 premiership player Grahem Wright who took over from Bucky about 5 or 6 years ago, and Geoff Morris who left us to go the the Hawks in October 2006 have done a great job and then throw in Chris Pelchen who despite him bloviating about how important he was, added to the strength of their list management team.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Update to post 149 on page 6.

 

[BIG MATTY WHITE]

The funniest thing is...

The whole judd v hodge debate.....hawks were copping s*** at the start of both their careers that they should have chosen judd...

Even funnier still at the end of the day the only losers of the judd v hodge debate is Carlton.....

 

[Hellgood]

Whatever happened to Clinton Young? He went to Collingwood but that was at least 2 seasons ago.

Cruelled by injuries.

 

[charcolechaddy]

Seems to be a bit of a trend with mental health-hawthorn -tradebate .

 

[Pappagallo]

The funniest thing is...

The whole judd v hodge debate.....hawks were copping s*** at the start of both their careers that they should have chosen judd...

Even funnier still at the end of the day the only losers of the judd v hodge debate is Carlton.....

I don't think it has made a difference one way or the other really, as I'm sure they still would've won plenty if they had Judd instead of Hodge.

The scary part is imagining how good they'd be if they didn't screw up those two consecutive Pick 6's.

 

[Nemisis]

Fantastic work REH.
Hawthorn picked up on the idea before any other club that if you have a great 'core' of players, the way to go was to trade for 'needs'.
Port are now going down that path, hopefully with similar results.
Clarkson and his team (players, coaches, recruiters) have created a template for success ... almost ... selection of players is still the key.
And as for Clarkson's game plan - it is tried and tested and quite easy to execute with the right type of players.
Congrats to the mighty Hawks (I still hate them though)

 

[SgtSchulz]

Can we poach someone from the Hawks coaching staff?

 

[Janus]

One thing a top four team does is punish the lower ranked teams with blow out wins. This is for two reasons. The first is that it increases their percentage. The second is psychological. The second thing a top four team does is get results that are based on good defense and good attack, rather than skewed one way or another.

These are the results over the season for teams that made the premiership caliber window of scoring 100 points or more in a game and keeping the opposition to 86 points or less.

Hawthorn - 14 wins - 3 wins against top six, 4 wins against middle six, 7 wins against bottom six
West Coast - 11 wins - 3 wins against top six, 2 wins against middle six, 6 wins against bottom six
Fremantle - 5 wins - 1 win against top six, 2 wins against middle six, 2 wins against bottom six
North Melbourne - 7 wins - 1 win against top six, 2 wins against middle six, 4 wins against bottom six
Sydney - 6 wins - 0 wins against top six, 2 wins against middle six, 4 wins against bottom six
Adelaide - 7 wins - 1 win against top six, 1 win against middle six, 5 wins against bottom six
Western Bulldogs - 7 wins - 0 wins against top six, 4 wins against middle six, 3 wins against bottom six
Richmond - 5 wins - 0 wins against top six, 2 wins against middle six, 3 wins against bottom six

Port Adelaide - 4 wins - 3 wins against top six, 0 wins against middle six, 1 win against bottom six

Geelong - 5 wins - 0 wins against top six, 2 wins against middle six, 3 wins against bottom six
GWS - 5 wins - 0 wins against top six, 1 win against middle six, 4 wins against bottoms six
Collingwood - 6 wins - 0 wins against top six, 2 wins against middle six, 4 wins against bottom six
Melbourne - 2 wins - 1 win against top six, 1 win against middle six, 0 wins against bottom six
St. Kilda - 3 wins - 0 wins against top six, 0 wins against middle six, 3 wins against bottom six
Essendon - 2 wins - 0 wins against top six, 0 wins against middle six, 2 wins against bottom six
Gold Coast - 2 wins - 0 wins against top six, 1 win against middle six, 1 win against bottom six
Brisbane - 2 wins - 0 wins against top six, 1 win against middle six, 1 win against bottom six
Carlton - 1 win - 0 wins against top six, 0 wins against middle six, 1 win against bottom six

The difference between Hawthorn and Port Adelaide is the ability to put the crap sides away. 7 wins against the bottom six teams where they scored over a hundred points while restricting their opponent to 86 points or less. West Coast also benefited from being flat track bullies and accumulating 6 wins against the bottom six in the same manner.

Of course, the only bottom six side we played at home was St.Kilda, and that was the only bottom six side we did the 100/86 criteria against.

 

[TeeKray]

It's more than just personnel, it's attitude. Listen to any of the Hawthorn leaders and you'll realise why they have been so consistently strong, year after year. I listen to Jordan Lewis each Tuesday night on 360 and he's dead serious about winning the premiership. Listening to Hodge or Mitchell or any of their other leaders gives off the same vibe. They don't think footy is a joke, they are so serious about winning and it must drive their entire team to the high standards that we witness nearly every week. Half of the teams in the AFL are super talented, including and especially our team. The difference is that mental application and drive to be the best.

 

[Jack Grange]

Update to post 149 on page 6.

View attachment 180316

In 2001 Hawthorn traded Croad and McPharlin for pick 1 (Hodge).
In 2004 it wasThompson for pick 7 (Lewis)

You could say that Hodge and Lewis are Hawthorn.

They certainly weren't scared to pull the trigger.

EDIT: That would be something similar to us trading Trengove, Broadbent or Hartlett plus a younger Schulz, if not more than that, for picks 1 and 7.

EDIT 2: In 2005 it was Johnathan Hay and Lonie out for picks 14 and 18.

Appears there is one big oversight...Buddy. Drafted same time as Roughy...hawks got a real leg up when they finished 'bottom' and engineered a priority pick..from memory

 

[*PAF]

Appears there is one big oversight...Buddy. Drafted same time as Roughy...hawks got a real leg up when they finished 'bottom' and engineered a priority pick..from memory

Buddy was their priority pick. Not part of a trade. He played in 2 premierships.

 

[melanChronic]

I think technically Roughead was the PP as he was taken first. 2004 was right about when a commision into Victorian performance was underway... And surprise surprise 3 Vic clubs had start of first round priority picks. Classic short term AFL 'solution' that has had repercussions a decade on.

Although you could say that if the priority pick system didn't exist then Hawks wouldn't've got Buddy because with their first and only top 5 pick they would've (presumably) taken Rough.

 

[*PAF]

I think technically Roughead was the PP as he was taken first. 2004 was right about when a commision into Victorian performance was underway... And surprise surprise 3 Vic clubs had start of first round priority picks. Classic short term AFL 'solution' that has had repercussions a decade on.

Although you could say that if the priority pick system didn't exist then Hawks wouldn't've got Buddy because with their first and only top 5 pick they would've (presumably) taken Rough.

Bit hard to tell with consecutive picks like St Kilda had with Riewoldt and Koschitzke, but when you pick a player and let another team or two have a pick before your next one, then it would be an extremely safe bet to say Hawthorn would have gone for Roughead.

Here is one for the books.
If there were no priority picks, Adelaide would have had pick 5 and we would have had pick 8.

Pick 5 was Franklin and pick 8 was Meesen.

 

[Chrizzt]

One thing a top four team does is punish the lower ranked teams with blow out wins. This is for two reasons. The first is that it increases their percentage. The second is psychological. The second thing a top four team does is get results that are based on good defense and good attack, rather than skewed one way or another.

These are the results over the season for teams that made the premiership caliber window of scoring 100 points or more in a game and keeping the opposition to 86 points or less.

Hawthorn - 14 wins - 3 wins against top six, 4 wins against middle six, 7 wins against bottom six
West Coast - 11 wins - 3 wins against top six, 2 wins against middle six, 6 wins against bottom six
Fremantle - 5 wins - 1 win against top six, 2 wins against middle six, 2 wins against bottom six
North Melbourne - 7 wins - 1 win against top six, 2 wins against middle six, 4 wins against bottom six
Sydney - 6 wins - 0 wins against top six, 2 wins against middle six, 4 wins against bottom six
Adelaide - 7 wins - 1 win against top six, 1 win against middle six, 5 wins against bottom six
Western Bulldogs - 7 wins - 0 wins against top six, 4 wins against middle six, 3 wins against bottom six
Richmond - 5 wins - 0 wins against top six, 2 wins against middle six, 3 wins against bottom six

Port Adelaide - 4 wins - 3 wins against top six, 0 wins against middle six, 1 win against bottom six

Geelong - 5 wins - 0 wins against top six, 2 wins against middle six, 3 wins against bottom six
GWS - 5 wins - 0 wins against top six, 1 win against middle six, 4 wins against bottoms six
Collingwood - 6 wins - 0 wins against top six, 2 wins against middle six, 4 wins against bottom six
Melbourne - 2 wins - 1 win against top six, 1 win against middle six, 0 wins against bottom six
St. Kilda - 3 wins - 0 wins against top six, 0 wins against middle six, 3 wins against bottom six
Essendon - 2 wins - 0 wins against top six, 0 wins against middle six, 2 wins against bottom six
Gold Coast - 2 wins - 0 wins against top six, 1 win against middle six, 1 win against bottom six
Brisbane - 2 wins - 0 wins against top six, 1 win against middle six, 1 win against bottom six
Carlton - 1 win - 0 wins against top six, 0 wins against middle six, 1 win against bottom six

The difference between Hawthorn and Port Adelaide is the ability to put the crap sides away. 7 wins against the bottom six teams where they scored over a hundred points while restricting their opponent to 86 points or less. West Coast also benefited from being flat track bullies and accumulating 6 wins against the bottom six in the same manner.

Of course, the only bottom six side we played at home was St.Kilda, and that was the only bottom six side we did the 100/86 criteria against.

That's really quite interesting, hadn't thought about that "premiership standard" being broken down into wins against top/mid/lower tier.
Just makes those losses against Brisbane and Carlton hurt more.

 

[TeeKray]

David King plotted Hawthorn's premiership standard attack/defence last night on Fox Footy, lauding their defence for being so stingy in only conceding about 70 points per game.

Of course, we put 99 and 108 past them, bookmarking our losses to Brisbane and Carlton. Ffs.

 

[Power Raid]

David King plotted Hawthorn's premiership standard attack/defence last night on Fox Footy, lauding their defence for being so stingy in only conceding about 70 points per game.

Of course, we put 99 and 108 past them, bookmarking our losses to Brisbane and Carlton. Ffs.

I still shake my head how that is possible